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13-03-2019, 15:06   #856
gozunda
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Originally Posted by KikiLaRue View Post
Actually, what I said is that I don't think wild speculation is helpful. And I stand by that fully.
Making up stories about what might have happened, how the school might have been involved, what Hawe may have been thinking, why he might have done it - none of it is helpful and I'd argue it's very unhelpful to a community that is both mourning and trying to move past a tragedy.I haven't said anyone is wrong, because you can't really be wrong when you're speculating, by it's nature it's an act of imagination. So you're free to think whatever you'd like.I'd prefer to get the facts from an investigation, personally, but you do you boo.
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It's possible that the school has it right, and the family has it wrong. Where are they getting their information? If it's a counsellor's notes, he wouldn't be the first person to lie to a counsellor about what was on his mind.
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Originally Posted by KikiLaRue
And yes, I do think a lot of posters here who are speculating wildly about what happened are probably getting it wrong.

Last edited by gozunda; 15-03-2019 at 07:18.
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13-03-2019, 15:10   #857
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Originally Posted by gozunda View Post
Important words "It's possible" - I'm not making any assumptions.

Do you have anything meaningful to respond to the points I'm making, or is a rolled eyes emoji and snipes at me all you've got to contribute?
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13-03-2019, 15:17   #858
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Originally Posted by gozunda View Post
Clodagh had already talked to her mother about Hawes use of pornography. That he was attending counciling for that was also referred to.

The schools statement sounds rather defensive imo especially considering that the gardai already suspect he was using a private browser to view the material online...

PR job on behalf of the school?
It certainly sounds like it could be a PR job to me. There is no way the school can categorically rule out that he was watching porn at school be it via his phone or laptop using a private browser. Yet in their statement they categorically ruled it out, they cannot possibily know this information for sure yet they are trying to come across as cock sure about it. Thats why the school is now being questioned, they are making claims they cannot back up.

The Coll family have been told that 97% of his porn viewing happened on a laptop at school. This seems to be information coming from the Gardai and their foresnsic examination of the laptop, either formally or off the record. The Coll family have been told the complete opposite to what the school statement is now claiming.

There is also the possibility that he got caught viewing porn in the local GAA club where he was treasurer. But not withstanding that the school statement is still completely at odds with what the Coll family have released they know about his actions in the lead up to the murders. So if this is a PR stunt then it will unravel in time.
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13-03-2019, 15:30   #859
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Meh, all porn is depraved to some people, particularly the highly religious and conservative they would have been associating with in a small rural community
I would broadly agree. However if what he was watching was illegal or harmful content coupled with his job as a teacher - would that be game changer?
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13-03-2019, 15:45   #860
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I didn't see the Claire Byrne show but I've read the transcripts and my heart goes out to the family of Clodagh Hawe.

I would also like to say that I hope the Gardai and other first responders in this case were adequately looked after in the aftermath of the horrific scene they must have witnessed and that they have received counselling etc.
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13-03-2019, 17:05   #861
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If viewing a bit of porn was so catastrophic then half of the young males of Ireland would probably be in trouble

The fact is, Alan Hawe was a sociopath and planned and carried out the murder of his wife and 3 children with ruthless efficiency and not one iota of thought for them or anyone else.

I doubt if anyone could have prevented this
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13-03-2019, 17:22   #862
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If viewing a bit of porn was so catastrophic then half of the young males of Ireland would probably be in trouble

The fact is, Alan Hawe was a sociopath and planned and carried out the murder of his wife and 3 children with ruthless efficiency and not one iota of thought for them or anyone else.

I doubt if anyone could have prevented this
Personally I have no issue with pornography(legal) and I don't think most people have. Some people have an issue with any porn.
The issue with this case was it was alleged it happened on school premises. I do understand why some parents may have issues with this.

Regarding could anybody have prevented this. I don't really know. I do think it may have highlighted how a partner can be very controlling towards family members and it may make people aware of there own situation and people around them.
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13-03-2019, 19:39   #863
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Originally Posted by freshpopcorn View Post
Personally I have no issue with pornography(legal) and I don't think most people have. Some people have an issue with any porn.
The issue with this case was it was alleged it happened on school premises. I do understand why some parents may have issues with this.

Regarding could anybody have prevented this. I don't really know. I do think it may have highlighted how a partner can be very controlling towards family members and it may make people aware of there own situation and people around them.
The issue of high functioning psychopaths/ sociopaths may be relevant here. In my own experience I have encountered at least one individual who like Alan Hawe held a socially important job in a locality and was seen by at least some as a pillar of the community. I don't necessarily believe that these type of personalities need to have a psychotic episode to become toxic.

The thing I have found is that superficially at least - they are charming and held up by many as the epitome of the 'good guy'. Underneath they are a danger to everyone within their reach. Not all resort to murder but there are many who have no morals with regard to others lives.

Last edited by gozunda; 13-03-2019 at 20:32.
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13-03-2019, 22:21   #864
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Originally Posted by Muahahaha View Post
It certainly sounds like it could be a PR job to me. There is no way the school can categorically rule out that he was watching porn at school be it via his phone or laptop using a private browser. Yet in their statement they categorically ruled it out, they cannot possibily know this information for sure yet they are trying to come across as cock sure about it. Thats why the school is now being questioned, they are making claims they cannot back up.
They've stated that's what the Gardai told them. Are you saying the school now is lying about what the Gardai said?



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Originally Posted by Muahahaha View Post
The Coll family have been told that 97% of his porn viewing happened on a laptop at school. This seems to be information coming from the Gardai and their foresnsic examination of the laptop, either formally or off the record.

What's your source for this please?
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14-03-2019, 22:37   #865
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They've stated that's what the Gardai told them. Are you saying the school now is lying about what the Gardai said?

The Gardai only said that there was nothing illegal in his use of the computer. They never categorically stated that he wasn't watching porn, only the school has done that. Now unless the school has CCTV in every single corner of the building (which they don't) then how can they possibly claim to know that he never accessed porn on school grounds? The school is trying to claim something that they cannot possibly know with any degree of certainity.


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What's your source for this please?
Quote:
In today's article, Ms Connolly discloses that counselling notes reveal that Alan Hawe was "frequently viewing pornography, suffered regular urges to masturbate and was experimenting with cross dressing".

She reveals that computer forensics established that 97pc of the pornography he viewed was on a laptop at his work in Castlerahan school: "In all likelihood it would seem if he stated he was caught red-handed and 'it was all going to blow up', the most likely place was the school."
https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-37872187.html

So on the one hand we have Jacqueline Connolly saying that the Gardai computer foresnics investigation revealed that 97% of the porn he viewed was on the school laptop that we know he never brought home. And on the other hand the statement of the school categorically states that he never viewed porn on the school grounds. The two versions of the same story do not add up, they directly contradict each other.

So who to believe here? The Gardai did a forensic investigation whereas the school have made a claim that they cannot possibly back up. I don't know what is going on here but things certainly do not add up, the schools statement has only served to muddy the waters and you can't blame people for theorising that was their very intention.

Last edited by Muahahaha; 14-03-2019 at 22:43.
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15-03-2019, 05:17   #866
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This different case, in the news today, just shows how difficult it is to answer the question "why" when it comes to violent attacks, attempted murder and murder - in this particular case, thankfully the victim didn't die, but was severely injured.


https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-37880802.html

So you have this, on behalf of the defence:


"A consultant psychiatrist engaged by the defence testified that the accused was suffering from a mental disorder at the time, and so was entitled to the special defence of not guilty by reason of insanity.

Dr Stephen Monks of the Central Mental Hospital (CMH) told the jury that she was suffering from schizoaffective disorder, a chronic mental illness related to schizophrenia".



And this on behalf of the prosecution:

"However, a consultant psychiatrist engaged by the State disagreed. Professor Harry Kennedy, also of the CMH, testified that she was not delusional at the time, but carried out the attack in anger and out of a ‘sense of entitlement’; she told gardai she’d needed money.

Prof Kennedy said her attack would not come under the definition of insanity. He said that she possessed ‘callous’ and ‘unemotional’ personality traits and had the ability to ‘fabricate for her own interests’."


I'm just posting this to show the level of complexity and difficulty involved in answering the question "why did this happen?"- difficult enough to determine the mind of the person when they're still alive and able to stand trial- so much more difficult when the person is no longer around for some form of psychiatric assessment.

I hope the family get some form of answer. I think one of the few routes is maybe to have some form of consultation with an experienced Psychiatrist such as the people who were consulted in the above trial- maybe these people can at least start to explain to them, how someone "might" do such a thing- I know, not closure by any means but may provide some comfort.
I don't know about that, there was once a definition of psychopath given by a psychiatrist in court that was so broad ranging it could have applied to most of the population.
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16-03-2019, 17:16   #867
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[quote="Muahahaha;109685023"]The Gardai only said that there was nothing illegal in his use of the computer. They never categorically stated

So on the one hand we have Jacqueline Connolly saying that the Gardai computer foresnics investigation revealed that 97% of the porn he viewed was on the school laptop that we know he never brought home. And on the other hand the statement of the school categorically states that he never viewed porn on the school grounds. The two versions of the same story do not add up, they directly contradict each other.


I read that school stated that porn was not viewed in school time, school hours, they did not state that porn was never viewed on school property.
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16-03-2019, 18:54   #868
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I doubt the family have a written statement from Garda. They now have one from school.
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17-03-2019, 14:53   #869
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I read that school stated that porn was not viewed in school time, school hours, they did not state that porn was never viewed on school property
In this section of the statement, they did.

“Whilst there has been reference to Mr Hawe being caught ‘red-handed’ in relation to some of his activities, we can state categorically that this has absolutely nothing to do with this school and did not happen on school premises.”

Actually what I find interesting, by its very omission, is the lack of any reference, be it denial or otherwise to the 'conflict with a colleague' Alan Hawe spoke about. Personally I can't see why he'd say this, if it weren't true. Of course it may have been something very minor....which, like some of the other issues (younger years) he mentioned, did, nonetheless, cause him some distress.
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19-03-2019, 00:48   #870
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[quote="Calypso Realm;109705429"]In this section of the statement, they did.

“Whilst there has been reference to Mr Hawe being caught ‘red-handed’ in relation to some of his activities, we can state categorically that this has absolutely nothing to do with this school and did not happen on school premises.”


The school stated he was not watching porn during school hours. They also state that he was not caught 'red handed' on school grounds. They at no time stated that he was not watching porn on school grounds outside of school hours, on school computer
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