RSA ad on unaccompanied L drivers

magicbastarder · 08-01-2019 3:06pm

funny enough, a colleague of my wife's was raging, he got caught driving unaccompanied over christmas. the penalty now includes the car owner, doesn't it? or am i imagining that?

User142 · 08-01-2019 3:08pm

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't think that's true is it? It should be IMO. The RSA tried to have something done on it a few years ago but I haven't heard anything since.

In 2013 a learner driver could basically drive unaccompanied without much fear. The Gard would have to summon you to court where the average penalty was €100 with no option to give penalty points. It was rarely done given the resources required. That law would have been putting the cart before the horse. Drunk accompaniers would just deny they held a full licence and were even acting as accompaniers. Completely unenforceable with the status quo we had then.

In the future this law will be brought in and it will be same people who oppose the Clancy Amendment who will oppose it.

Muahahaha · 08-01-2019 3:26pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

funny enough, a colleague of my wife's was raging, he got caught driving unaccompanied over christmas. the penalty now includes the car owner, doesn't it? or am i imagining that?

The new law got enacted at midnight on the 21st December so if after that then yeah you would presume they are done. However the IT article I read said the car owner only faces a fine, it didnt mention any penalty points for allowing the learner to drive alone. Which in a way isnt all that much of a deterrent tbh, some people will just continue on as normal and suck up the fine if caught. The law does give the power for the car to be seized from the learner but presumably it it then just handed back to the owner when the fine is paid.

TheChizler wrote: »

That's absolutely what should happen and if everyone did that the roads would be much safer places, but quite often the passenger won't even be paying attention never mind offering appropriate advice.

I wonder if instead of the law punishing people who let their cars be driven unaccompanied would it have been better to legally put some of the responsibility on the passenger. They are supposed to be supervising at all, they should be actively monitoring the driver and correcting poor driving.

I suppose the effect would be that few people would want to accompany learners out of fear of being prosecuted in the event of an accident, and we end up with the same arguments against it, learners not getting opportunities to practice etc.

At a minimum I feel passengers should be subject to the same rules regarding mobile phone usage and alcohol impairment when they're supervising as when they're driving, so at least they're available to supervise mentally. That could have a much more positive effect than punishment after the fact.

In an ideal world for sure but Id imagine putting responsibility on the passenger could end up in all kinds of messy legal argument in the event of an accident. I do agree that it needs to be tackled but the question is how to do it effectively, how is blame apportioned between driver & passenger. It could quickly decsend into a he said, she said situation with no way to resolve it.

martingriff · 08-01-2019 4:08pm

Little Less Conversation wrote: »

I didn't say that at all. What I said was, it wasn't that long ago where we all did it and he shouldn't be talking about this girl's family when his own family probably did.

Well I certainly didn't and I know a number who also didn't so out with the we all did. Have you proof his family did also.

Now this is an awful and and that's the point to make you stop and think. I say I am 1 of the 99% of people who saw this as could not remember it or who the driver was. Does not name or say the sex of the driver. This thread has done more to shine a light on this driver then that as ever did.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-01-2019 4:12pm

eagle eye wrote: »

It won't because it's not on Netflix or Amazon Prime or the BBC or Sky/BT sports.
It's on RTE which feck all young people watch.

Maybe their parents will think twice before lending them the car to drive unsupervised.

lbc2019 wrote: »

Amazing, but she kills someone and is convicted and they want it brushed under the carpet.

Anyone here have a relative/friend killed in an RTI?

Yes, a friend was killed by an unlicensed unaccompanied 'learner' driving on completely bald tyres in the wet, overtook on a bend and lost control. £500 fine was the price of a life.

Little Less Conversation wrote: »

It was an accident. She didn't set out to kill them.

Drink drivers don't set off to kill anyone, either... but we rightly don't have people on here making ridiculous excuses for them when they do kill someone.

tipperary wrote: »

Having a blowout is not premeditated breaking of the law.

No but it's almost always caused by the negligence of the driver to ensure their tyres are in a safe condition and properly inflated (which is breaking the law)

punisher5112 · 08-01-2019 4:15pm

There is a girl driving around sallynogin in a black Honda Civic 2006 if I recall and both nearside/passenger side tyres are flat.

She was parked in a disabled spot to pick up her kid and then further down at the shops as seen the car again later.

She passed by the passenger side numerous times as did the fella.

How can one continue to drive like that.

martingriff · 08-01-2019 4:16pm

Little Less Conversation wrote: »

I did it because I had to. I lived in rural Ireland and the rules weren't enforced. Who has friends/family to bring along on a drive to work and let them off while you park up your car. I wouldn't do it now though.

Driving should be thought in schools. Not useless subjects like religion. Give them a life skill that they will have for life.

I lived in the countryside and I didn't. If I needed to go some where I got a lift in or went when I could be accompanied if that meant going early then so be it and if I had to wait to get home also so be it. I had friends in college who spend whole days in as they had to wait. So you you didn't have to you chose to

punisher5112 · 08-01-2019 4:18pm

If one really hasn't the time, or needs to travel they can legally travel alone on a moped/scooter or motorbike from 16 on.

No excuse really there isn't.

AndrewJRenko · 08-01-2019 4:32pm

dense wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I reckon that much of the opposition to the ad is a direct result of it's effectiveness - it is actually forcing people to think and face up to their responsibilities, and many don't like that.

I would say anyone opposing it is simply cognisant of human error. No one can ever say they won't ever make a mistake driving, yourself included.
The majority by your reckoning do face up to their responsibilities each day and do not cause accidents collisions or whatever you want to call them.

I make mistakes every time I drive. I drive in a way that ensures these mistakes don't kill me or anyone else.

Driving unaccompanied without a licence is not 'human error'.

dense · 08-01-2019 4:48pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I make mistakes every time I drive. I drive in a way that ensures these mistakes don't kill me or anyone else.

Driving unaccompanied without a licence is not 'human error'.

So far your mistakes have not killed you or any one else.
Do you believe you will never make a mistake where that may change?

magicbastarder · 08-01-2019 4:50pm

there's quite a difference between driving in such a way as you give yourself room to cope with an error, and driving in a way that you've no margin of error.

dense · 08-01-2019 4:59pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

There is a girl driving around sallynogin in a black Honda Civic 2006 if I recall and both nearside/passenger side tyres are flat.

She was parked in a disabled spot to pick up her kid and then further down at the shops as seen the car again later.

She passed by the passenger side numerous times as did the fella.

How can one continue to drive like that.

Report her.

dense · 08-01-2019 5:06pm

markpb wrote: »

If people can't find someone to volunteer to supervise them, they can pay a driving instructor to teach and supervise them until they're able to pass the test. Plenty of people do it this way, it's not the end of the world.

I'm not saying it is the end of the world at all.

I'm wondering should potential experienced accompanying drivers reassess whether they should do it at all in light of people seeming to believe that they should be held jointly liable for any accidents involving anyone they are accompanying or for failing to prevent one.

punisher5112 · 08-01-2019 5:08pm

dense wrote: »

Report her.

I was unable to stop or get the full reg unfortunately.

dense · 08-01-2019 5:13pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I was unable to stop or get the full reg unfortunately.

I'm amazed, you and I can see this kind of thing/behaviour regularly even though we're intermittently on the road, yet it seems to be regularly "missed" or not seen by patrol cars!

Graham · 08-01-2019 5:26pm

dense wrote: »

I'm amazed, you and I can see this kind of thing/behaviour regularly even though we're intermittently on the road, yet it seems to be regularly "missed" or not seen by patrol cars!

I wonder if that's starting to change...

LEARNER driver is due to appear in court after they were caught driving 115km in a 50km zone, without L-plates on display or a qualified motorist with them.

"Driver arrested and charged for court. Vehicle seized."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/learner-driver-arrested-after-being-caught-speeding-at-115km-in-a-50km-zone-37690059.html

martingriff · 08-01-2019 6:34pm

dense wrote: »

If there had been an experienced driver in the car who'd been reading the paper at the time or facebooking, would you want to pin blame on them too now for not pro actively co-driving?

I think they can be. I know they can be prosecuted for been drunk or was to be brought in

dense · 08-01-2019 7:00pm

martingriff wrote: »

I think they can be. I know they can be prosecuted for been drunk or was to be brought in

So apart from being sober and a licence holder, does anyone know if there are any other legal requirements to be observed to accompany a learner permit holder?

Can an accompanying driver be charged with careless driving I wonder?

punisher5112 · 08-01-2019 7:34pm

dense wrote: »

So apart from being sober and a licence holder, does anyone know if there are any other legal requirements to be observed to accompany a learner permit holder?

Can an accompanying driver be charged with careless driving I wonder?

Must hold a licence 2 years minimum.

magicbastarder · 08-01-2019 9:12pm

posting because it's topical rather than actually adding anything to the discussion:

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1082549832290582528

punisher5112 · 08-01-2019 10:18pm

Wow 115 in a 50

AndrewJRenko · 08-01-2019 11:32pm

dense wrote: »

I'm amazed, you and I can see this kind of thing/behaviour regularly even though we're intermittently on the road, yet it seems to be regularly "missed" or not seen by patrol cars!

While I'm often critical of the Gardai, I'd guess that if every patrol car was to stop and deal with every traffic offence that they see, they'd never get more than 1km at the station.

dense wrote: »

So far your mistakes have not killed you or any one else.
Do you believe you will never make a mistake where that may change?

I've been thinking back over mistakes. I remember misjudging an overtake on the M50 2 or 3 years back due to poor observation of what was going on behind me. There was no collision, but if things had gone badly wrong, I guess that someone could have got badly hurt. Since then, I've changed how I do the observation to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Robocop Corcoran · 09-01-2019 12:06am

It seems discretion is still being used by Gardai in relation to this, my brother was stopped at a checkpoint in Santry this evening he was driving unaccompanied. They didnt seize the car, just made him aware he shouldn't be driving on his own.

mugsymugsy · 09-01-2019 12:12am

Glad the ad was made as finally might make people see sense that think it's ok.

Seriously unaccompanied drivers get lessons, get test booked and do it legit otherwise ride a bike, get a bus, get a lift or walk.

Anyone flouting driving laws should be banned and have the book thrown at them no excuses for not driving with correct licence, NCT, insurance etc

Richmond Ultra · 09-01-2019 12:12am

The unfortunate death in Ballincollig on New Year's involved a learner driver unaccompanied in the parents car. It will be interesting to see what happens here down the line.

dense · 09-01-2019 12:25am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've been thinking back over mistakes. I remember misjudging an overtake on the M50 2 or 3 years back due to poor observation of what was going on behind me. There was no collision, but if things had gone badly wrong, I guess that someone could have got badly hurt. Since then, I've changed how I do the observation to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Fair enough, we learn all the time on the road.

But if your error had killed someone, how do you think you'd feel having the accident (you did accidentally misjudge something, it wasn't deliberate) and your mistake as the centre of an identifiable media campaign?

Think you'd deserved it? Honestly now.

dense · 09-01-2019 12:30am

Robocop Corcoran wrote: »

It seems discretion is still being used by Gardai in relation to this, my brother was stopped at a checkpoint in Santry this evening he was driving unaccompanied. They didnt seize the car, just made him aware he shouldn't be driving on his own.

Is your brother Robocop 2?

TheChizler · 09-01-2019 10:35am

dense wrote: »

So apart from being sober and a licence holder, does anyone know if there are any other legal requirements to be observed to accompany a learner permit holder?

Can an accompanying driver be charged with careless driving I wonder?

Currently the passenger could be passed out drunk and there would be no repercussions for them, I'm not even confident the driver is doing anything (legally) wrong either.

dense · 09-01-2019 10:47am

TheChizler wrote: »

Currently the passenger could be passed out drunk and there would be no repercussions for them, I'm not even confident the driver is doing anything (legally) wrong either.

Isn't this the point, there seems to be no legislation that anyone can point to to explain what the experienced driver is required to do apart from being there.

So despite all the fuss there is no way to know if an accompanying driver would have prevented this or has prevented any other accident.

I'm not against the principle, but I'm not going all guns blazing for it either.

An idiot experienced driver could just as easily be accompanying an idiot inexperienced learner.

pablo128 · 09-01-2019 11:06am

dense wrote: »

Isn't this the point, there seems to be no legislation that anyone can point to to explain what the experienced driver is required to do apart from being there.

So despite all the fuss there is no way to know if an accompanying driver would have prevented this or has prevented any other accident.

I'm not against the principle, but I'm not going all guns blazing for it either.

An idiot experienced driver could just as easily be accompanying an idiot inexperienced learner.

Be careful what you wish for. Would you like to see learner's on the road only with an approved driving instructor @ 30 euro an hour until they pass their test, or the current system with 12 hours mandatory along with paractising with an accompanying driver?

RSA ad on unaccompanied L drivers

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