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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    liger wrote: »
    No they haven't. The fares have remained steady for the last couple of years. 2cent increase to schoolkids fare on the leap card and rise for xpresso if I recall right.

    Not that DB or GA control that.

    The way it currently is that DB propose the changes and the NTA have the final say on them, generally DB have looked for more than they have got for most of the last few years on single fares.

    The new model that GoAhead will be on from when they start and Dublin Bus will be on after 2019 is that there will be no proposals made and it will be a solely NTA decision.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    liger wrote: »
    No they haven't. The fares have remained steady for the last couple of years. 2cent increase to schoolkids fare on the leap card and rise for xpresso if I recall right.

    Not that DB or GA control that.

    Well they're still way more expensive compared to other European cities with far better public transport systems. As I said earlier London is only £1.50 flat fare for a trip plus a transfer within 90 mins and Paris is only €1.90 for a ticket valid on buses and metro.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    The new model that GoAhead will be on from when they start and Dublin Bus will be on after 2019 is that there will be no proposals made and it will be a solely NTA decision.

    If they win the tender that is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    DB proposed a flat fare during before the NTA's inception one of the better ideas regarding public transport however this was blocked by the jobsworths in the DoT who were calling the shots at the time.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    DB proposed a flat fare during before the NTA's inception one of the better ideas regarding public transport however this was blocked by the jobsworths in the DoT who were calling the shots at the time.

    Thing is it's very simplistic to say that DB proposed a flat fare, they did do it but I'm sure there were caveats and conditions attached to it over who is going to take the revenue risk and what would happen if it didn't work out and the effect that it would have on PSO subsidy for instance and the cost to the taxpayer.

    Implementing a flat fare system sounds like you just one day decide to charge everyone the same but in reality it's just not as simple as that as there are many things and factors that will be affected by such changes that are going to have to be worked out before any such system is a goer.

    Having an intergrated ticketing system with one ticket valid on everything is even more complicated because you have several companies all of which have their own requirements, revenue needs and none of them are going to give up any revenue without a fight at the end of the day because they will look after number one.

    The difference with the other countries is they tend to all have been one system and a central pot has been getting revenue and the operators have been paid set fees for some time, this is the model that the NTA is trying to move towards, but it's not going to be something that can happen relatively quickly since operators are used to taking fares and keeping them rather than being paid a set fee as is common in Europe.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    Having an intergrated ticketing system with one ticket valid on everything is even more complicated because you have several companies all of which have their own requirements, revenue needs and none of them are going to give up any revenue without a fight at the end of the day because they will look after number one.

    The difference with the other countries is they tend to all have been one system and a central pot has been getting revenue and the operators have been paid set fees for some time, this is the model that the NTA is trying to move towards, but it's not going to be something that can happen relatively quickly since operators are used to taking fares and keeping them rather than being paid a set fee as is common in Europe.

    That is why I reckon DB should have been given the tender to operate the Luas. A flat fare valid on Bus and Luas. Irish Rail who would have been easy enough to get as a fellow CIE company.

    Another thing is on the continent on buses they operate an open system with two or three door sometimes even four door buses. Even on London buses currently despite not having cash on board its the responsibility of the driver to make sure passengers tag on. On the continent the drivers sole responsibility is to drive the bus.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    That is why I reckon DB should have been given the tender to operate the Luas.

    Nobody can be given a tender, if it is a tender people bid and the one who scores the highest on the set criteria wins at the end of the day, anything else would be illegal and would be in a breach of EU Law.
    A flat fare valid on Bus and Luas. Irish Rail who would have been easy enough to get as a fellow CIE company.

    Judging by how long Bus and Train were in common ownership and they managed to do pretty much no intergration over the years, I wouldn't fancy the chances of that happening because CIE have an abysmal record when it comes to intergrating their sister companies apart from co-locating them in the same facilities.

    Plus at the end of the day even if they were, it still doesn't resolve the problems that I mentioned as you will still have caveats and conditions attached to it over who is going to take the revenue risk and what would happen if it didn't work out and the effect that it would have on PSO subsidy for instance and the cost to the taxpayer.

    Almost all intergrated transport tickets are based on revenue going to a fixed pot and the operators paid a fee to run a particular service, otherwise the system cannot work properly because it introduces lots of headaches such as who gets what part of the revenue from a ticket and why and that ALWAYS creates disputes between providers who are all going to want to look after their bottom line. So it's the norm to remove that problem entirely by taking farebox revenue out of the equation totally.

    For example in Warsaw you have several different bus contractors, a metro company, a tram company and a suburban rail company, they are all seperate legal entitites and none of them sell tickets as the tickets are sold by ZTM (their version of the NTA), there is no such thing as a bus ticket or a tram ticket or a rail ticket, they're all automatically intermodal, how that revenue is divided up is decided by ZTM who also take all the revenue risk and it's been very successful as it minimises disagreements between operators, turf wars and people fighting over the revenue percentage they take of a multi-mode ticket.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    Judging by how long Bus and Train were in common ownership and they managed to do pretty much no intergration over the years, I wouldn't fancy the chances of that happening because CIE have an abysmal record when it comes to intergrating their sister companies apart from co-locating them in the same facilities.

    Plus at the end of the day even if they were, it still doesn't resolve the problems that I mentioned as you will still have caveats and conditions attached to it over who is going to take the revenue risk and what would happen if it didn't work out and the effect that it would have on PSO subsidy for instance and the cost to the taxpayer.

    Almost all intergrated transport tickets are based on revenue going to a fixed pot and the operators paid a fee to run a particular service, otherwise the system cannot work properly because it introduces lots of headaches such as who gets what part of the revenue from a ticket and why and that ALWAYS creates disputes between providers who are all going to want to look after their bottom line. So it's the norm to remove that problem entirely by taking farebox revenue out of the equation totally.

    There actually were intergrated DB and IE, DB and Luas and Luas and IE tickets before Leap was introduced just none valid on all three.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    There actually were intergrated DB and IE, DB and Luas and Luas and IE tickets before Leap was introduced just none valid on all three.

    A moment ago you were talking about single tickets and flat fares now for some reason you've switched focus to something completely different such as period passes which is a totally different kettle of fish completely. I was talking about your average farebox revenue mainly, not monthly and yearly passes and you were too I thought for the previous posts?

    I suspect that the reason we don't have flat single fares is that Dublin Bus proposed a flat fare system to be brought in under the conditions that the DOT would reimburse them for any loss of revenue and the DOT felt that there was a reasonable chance that the impact taken on Dublin Bus farebox revenue could potentially create a funding deficit that the DOT would not have the resources to plug due to a lack of adequate finances.

    As I said, saying that they turned down a flat fare system and they're evil is a very simplistic way of looking at things as a number of things have to be taken into account and without knowing their full reasoning for why they turned it down and the conditions that Dublin Bus were proposing, it's impossible to fully judge, we're just guessing really, the devil, as always is in the detail and the detail sadly we don't have for this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    A moment ago you were talking about single tickets and flat fares now for some reason you've switched focus to something completely different such as period passes which is a totally different kettle of fish completely. I was talking about your average farebox revenue mainly, not monthly and yearly passes and you were too I thought for the previous posts?

    When you mentioned farebox revenue I assumed we were talking about all types of tickets purchased. Is this not classified as the same type of revenue as fares paid on the bus if thats the case then DB's farebox is much less now compared to pre leap days.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    IS there a longer term plan to wean DB off farebox revenue & transfer facilities out of their ownership? If say the next 10% of routes are to be tendered in 2020-21, then the following 10% etc at what point do you start to address the facilities and fare structure, and indeed the fare transfers structure between NTA controlled and DB controlled routes (in terms of fare box allocations)


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    IS there a longer term plan to wean DB off farebox revenue & transfer facilities out of their ownership? If say the next 10% of routes are to be tendered in 2020-21, then the following 10% etc at what point do you start to address the facilities and fare structure, and indeed the fare transfers structure between NTA controlled and DB controlled routes (in terms of fare box allocations)

    It's "fair" (:D) to say,that one of the significant errors made during the initial preparations for the introduction of the ITS scheme to Dublin,was the decision to defer Integration to a later date in the proceedings.

    The Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group DID give consideration to the issue,but in time honoured Irish fashion,left it behind for somebody else to sort out.

    That failure,was catastrophic for the value of the concept,and could have revolutionized how Leapcard functioned from the beginning,rather than now having to attempt to impose order upon chaos,when positions have become more entrenched....:rolleyes:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IS there a longer term plan to wean DB off farebox revenue & transfer facilities out of their ownership? If say the next 10% of routes are to be tendered in 2020-21, then the following 10% etc at what point do you start to address the facilities and fare structure, and indeed the fare transfers structure between NTA controlled and DB controlled routes (in terms of fare box allocations)

    2019 for the farebox - the direct award element will go to the same structure

    The depots are owned by CIE Group Property who will likely be willing to rent them out to others but expect union backlash as always


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    It's "fair" (:D) to say,that one of the significant errors made during the initial preparations for the introduction of the ITS scheme to Dublin,was the decision to defer Integration to a later date in the proceedings.

    I agree completely, this is a mistake that many companies and in particular government organisations make. You have a broken process and rather then fix the broken process, they turn it into an IT project, thinking that IT will fix the process when of course it doesn't it just replicates the old broken process (as per the specs given) and now adds an extra layer of complexity to it.

    Integrated paper ticketing has existed all across Europe for the past 50 years, we should have done the same first before then moving to smartcards/leap.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    You're ust another keyboard warrior next time your getting off bus a bus I dare you to say I hope you're replaced by a driverless bus instead of saying thanks go on I dare you.

    Please attack the posters point of view and not the poster themselves.

    Please do not reply to this post.

    - Moderator.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    An NTA tender recently sought up to 50 midibuses for DB,BE & presumably for Go Ahead to operate their PSO services.

    The tender was valued at €8 million. It asked for buses that were measured between 8.6m & 10.5m in length.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/190410

    This tender was recently closed back on the 8th of May.

    I wonder how many of these new midibuses will be in Go Ahead's hands when they have their routes off DB.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    An NTA tender recently sought up to 50 midibuses for DB,BE & presumably for Go Ahead to operate their PSO services.

    The tender was valued at €8 million. It asked for buses that were measured between 8.6m & 10.5m in length.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/190410

    This tender was recently closed back on the 8th of May.

    I wonder how many of these new midibuses will be in Go Ahead's hands when they have their routes off DB.

    More streetlites I wonder


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    An NTA tender recently sought up to 50 midibuses for DB,BE & presumably for Go Ahead to operate their PSO services.

    The tender was valued at €8 million. It asked for buses that were measured between 8.6m & 10.5m in length.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/190410

    This tender was recently closed back on the 8th of May.

    I wonder how many of these new midibuses will be in Go Ahead's hands when they have their routes off DB.

    Good to see that single deckers are making a return to Dublin Bus or former DB routes for that matter. Certain local routes such as the 59, 63 and the 111 will never require a double decker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    An NTA tender recently sought up to 50 midibuses for DB,BE & presumably for Go Ahead to operate their PSO services.

    The tender was valued at €8 million. It asked for buses that were measured between 8.6m & 10.5m in length.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/190410

    This tender was recently closed back on the 8th of May.

    I wonder how many of these new midibuses will be in Go Ahead's hands when they have their routes off DB.

    Once again, I need to explain that all tenders for buses are prepared on a speculative basis, as there is no guarantee that government funding will be available when they come around to be ordered. They also may subsequently decide to change the mix of buses ordered. They hedge their bets basically.

    Therefore take the details with some degree of scepticism and do not treat it as gospel.

    Only when tenders for new buses are awarded should they be relied upon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭thomasj


    I wonder how many of these new midibuses will be in Go Ahead's hands when they have their routes off DB.

    It's purely expression of interest more than purchasing , if it was purchasing we'd have many more buses including VTs by now


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Once again, I need to explain that all tenders for buses are prepared on a speculative basis, as there is no guarantee that government funding will be available when they come around to be ordered. They also may subsequently decide to change the mix of buses ordered. They hedge their bets basically.

    What you described above is exactly how every major company (or bus buying organisation) tenders for buses/coaches and it also how airlines buy planes.

    It is also not unusual for airlines to change their orders later. A380's to A350's, etc.

    It is a pretty damn good sign of what they are considering buying and are thinking pretty seriously about it. Short of a major recession hitting again, I would assume these orders will go ahead, though perhaps with a slightly different mix.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    bk wrote: »
    What you described above is exactly how every major company (or bus buying organisation) tenders for buses/coaches and it also how airlines buy planes.

    It is also not unusual for airlines to change their orders later. A380's to A350's, etc.

    It is a pretty damn good sign of what they are considering buying and are thinking pretty seriously about it. Short of a major recession hitting again, I would assume these orders will go ahead, though perhaps with a slightly different mix.

    If you look at the original tenders and the final tenders awarded over the last 10-15 years, even back in Celtic Tiger days, they generally bore little resemblance to one another, either in quantity or final vehicle mix.

    Hence the health warning - experience of watching this process tells me to treat them with a degree of caution, and certainly not to treat them as final as both you and other posters have done in recent times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    For the record - I don't want people to think I'm being unduly negative - I'm just very cautious about anything like this given the history!

    I'd be the first to welcome all these buses being delivered, but we will wait and see what happens. There is an awful lot that needs to happen in a very short space of time, and that's going to be challenging in itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    For the record - I don't want people to think I'm being unduly negative - I'm just very cautious about anything like this given the history!

    I'd be the first to welcome all these buses being delivered, but we will wait and see what happens. There is an awful lot that needs to happen in a very short space of time, and that's going to be challenging in itself.

    There certainly is. I somewhat fail to see how this tendering process will improve services.

    People are very quick to criticise DB and its staff when most the issues boil down underfunding resulting in lack of buses and lack of drivers. Maybe its just the area I live in but I am generally satisfied by the service I am getting in my area I find there is a good mix of local, radial and orbital routes in my area however there is room for improvement such as the reduction of fares and the making of buses cashless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    There certainly is. I somewhat fail to see how this tendering process will improve services.

    People are very quick to criticise DB and its staff when most the issues boil down underfunding resulting in lack of buses and lack of drivers. Maybe its just the area I live in but I am generally satisfied by the service I am getting in my area I find there is a good mix of local, radial and orbital routes in my area however there is room for improvement such as the reduction of fares and the making of buses cashless.

    This Saturday Dublin bus/NTA were running a 4 every half an hour. The service is a disgrace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    This Saturday Dublin bus/NTA were running a 4 every half an hour. The service is a disgrace.

    I was only giving a personal opinion yes I have seen the timetable for that routes and it probably should be more frequent on the weekends but thats only one route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I was only giving a personal opinion yes I have seen the timetable for that routes and it probably should be more frequent on the weekends but thats only one route.

    The entire network is archaic. Thankfully bus connects is en route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    The entire network is archaic. Thankfully bus connects is en route.

    I still dont know how this is going to go through with the unions.

    How do you take a marked in route off one driver let alone a 100 drivers without an all out strike?

    Even painting the busses to look the same as go ahead will be an issue.

    I tried to explain Bus connect to a marked in long term driver last week, and he laughed at me.
    I cant see it happen anytime soon. I hope it does happen, but I know how resistant to change people can be.

    There will be lots of friction.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This Saturday Dublin bus/NTA were running a 4 every half an hour. The service is a disgrace.

    I had a rant about this 6 years ago and sadly not much has changed:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71849514&postcount=2756

    The 4 has been sub-standard pretty much since network direct, at the same time that the artics were withdrawn they cut the frequency at peak-times from 6 buses an hour to 4 buses an hour and reduced it to half hourly on a Saturday and hourly on a Sunday.

    It was an excellent busy service from 2006 until when it was changed in 2009/10 but after that frequency cut and a cut to running time it became unreliable, frequently going past full at stops (which in turned heaped more pressure on the already busy 7, which also became unreliable and going past full).

    However realistically the NTA and Dublin Bus should have sorted it out by now and restored it back to every 10 minutes at peak time and expanded the weekend frequency since it's badly in needed it for a long time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    brokenarms wrote: »
    I still dont know how this is going to go through with the unions.

    How do you take a marked in route off one driver let alone a 100 drivers without an all out strike?

    They are payed to drive not comment on the colour of bus or the routes. Once their terms and conditions don't change they should be told to drive the bus or we'll find someone else who's willing to


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