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Editing programs

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Hugh_C


    Originally posted by bambam
    interesting article, could any of you A/V heads care to explain some ot the terms for the layman ?

    + diff between online and offline
    + effects like tracking ??
    + trimming
    + what kind of res does Super-16 give

    BTW, these guys work with awesome hardware. Best I've dealt with is round robin into twin Sun Starfires :)

    Offline uses low resolution (i.e. heavily compressed) pictures which have low storage overhead and therefore you can fit hours of footage onto a drive. Offline is where creativity, experimentation, long hours, frustration and success/failure happens. Offline pictures shouldn't be broadcast because they'll look cr@p. Offline (Avid) machines are cheaper than online machines.

    Online uses full resolution tv pictures and has a heavy requirement for storage. Online droids generally receive either a sequence or edl to plug into their machine, press the "GO" button and feed in the tapes. It is not generally considered to be creative (a horribly misunderstood and misused word), and the job is more suited to left-brain types. Online machines are expensive.

    I guess I've been a little disparaging about online, but in the bad old days of linear editing, that's where I cut my teeth. Online is also where a whole bunch of keying, effects and titling is done, and these skills in themselves can be finely honed, which is what separates good online editors from bad. Good online editors also suggest remedies for foobars that bad offline editors hav emade.

    Tracking is a technique used by effects bitches to invisibly replace one item in a scene with another, or introduce a new item to appear as if it was always in the scene. Tracking involves selecting an item already in a scene, getting the tracking software to find that set of pixels in every frame, and create a mathematical table which describes where that item is. Using this table, you can "glue" on new things that were never there, or fix things that shouldn' be there.

    Trimming is simply adjusting an edit. If a cut happens visually too soon, then make it later. Trimming is the fine tuning of an edit.

    Super 16 gives amazing resolution for TV work. Pretty good for low-budget feature work too. With the improvement in film stocks, it is getting more difficult to differentiate between 16 and 35.

    hth

    hC


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭Miguel_Sanchez


    Originally posted by mycroft
    Film composer is fine if you have about oooohhhh €70 Grand. And comparing film composer to express doesn't help. One is a jumbo jet the other is a golf gti. And you don't go down to the shops in a jumbo jet, it's not pratical. The best editing software is the one that suits your needs. You want simple cheap, go with Premier, more advance FCP or express, effects go with discreet, and serious editing check out media composer or if it's a film composer.

    I think annoucing which is the best is silly, it depends on what you use and always remember "knowing how to use avid/FCP/premier does not make you an editor, knowing how to edit makes you an editor, and you should be flexible and learn to adapt to different platforms.

    http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec03/novdec03_scrubs_fcp4.html

    Point taken I suppose. Does Avid Film Composer really cost that much??

    Personally if I was investing in an editing system (which I hopefully will be doing in a year or so) I would go for a Final Cut Pro on a Mac G4 (or 5). Premier in my experience is grand but in the end will drag you down if you're trying to edit anything major on it. So if you are investing in a whole new set up then FCP is the way to go.

    I agree that learning different platforms is a good way to go and obviously knowing how to use certain packages does not an editor make. I know people who can use FCP, Film Composer and have even edited on an old flat bed Steinbeck but still aren't editors because they lack the basic timing and intuition.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    Point taken I suppose. Does Avid Film Composer really cost that much??

    What most people don't factor in on the cost is the peripherals, For the cost of Film composer you get, film composer. You're also going to need, media storage (avid drives), a deck (beta sp, dat machine, etc) Not to mention the cost of upkeep and repair, it's why most productions rent, in the short term it's cheaper, and if something breaks down you're not responsible and the facilties house is you rented it from has to fix it.

    Has anyone had any joy working with FCP outside of it's firewire input? Most people I know have had serious issues trying to digtize using a breakout box, they keep losing video signal. If you're using or planning on getting FCP and thinking about digitizing of anything other than dv thru firewire, I understand you need to invest in about €2500 worth of kit to make it work


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭Lump


    WOWOWOW..... Final cut pro is the buzz word atm. I've used it on a new G5 (the fastest computer on earth apparently, and it stinks of monkey píss in my opinion. I've also used Avid 8000, Avid Media composer, Sony Es3, Sony Es7, Discreet Logic Edit*, and I have bought my own Pinnacle Pro Edition 5 which I love.


    To say Avid is user friendly is a bit of a lie really. I like avid and I agree its the industry standard. But all of the other mentioned have everything to hand..... I've worked changing between "Consumer" suites and pro edit suites (Avid) and I find the change difficult. I think if you were a constant avid user it would be fine, but takes you a few minutes to get your head around it wehn you sit down.

    I dislike FCP because everyone is talking about it since the new version came out.... FCP has been around for a while. It seems its got a media boost. I've worked with it and cant see any difference to my Pro Edition 5, takes a while to render as was already said.


    Pro Edition 5, does most things realtime, black and white, colour correction, 2d editor and 3d editor. This means it will preview realtime meaning you only have to render on your export. Good for me cause I work with a director that likes his B+W etc etc.


    That is all.... will add more later, but I need to go to the Hospital ;)


    John


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭Lump


    Oh an avid film composer isn't anything compared to Avid Symphony...... Costs in the region of £100,000


    It's the daddy.

    John


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Dustaz


    Just to clarify about Film Composer (actually i may be wrong about this but im pretty sure this is the way it is). Film Composer is only really a set of film options which can be added on to any avid to turn it into a film composer. So you can have a Media Composer with Film options or Symphony with Film options etc.


    In this day and age, You dont really need film options unless your doing a full blown feature. Its entirely possible (and practical) to offline at 25fps and get the labs to use the 25fps list to work out how to cut your negative. Then you only need to harmonise the sound track so that it runs at the equivalent speed of the projected film*










    (er, i think. Hugh correct any glaring errors :) )


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    Oh an avid film composer isn't anything compared to Avid Symphony...... Costs in the region of £100,000

    Again that all depends on what you're trying to do. If you're finishing on film theres little point in Symphony cause all it's fancy grading tools don't matter a damn cause the lab will handle that infinitely better. It's all about the right tool for the job. Also one of the largest post houses in this country has final cut pro linked to it's symphony and their onliners will often switch to working on it for certain tasks, they feel FCP is better at certain stuff than symphony

    In this day and age, You dont really need film options unless your doing a full blown feature. Its entirely possible (and practical) to offline at 25fps and get the labs to use the 25fps list to work out how to cut your negative.

    The process is called matchback, and I don't know of a single professional quailty film editor who would use it, it gives them the screaming heepy jeebys to think that some lab tech in england is guessing which frame is the correct one. Only ultra cheap features go for this option, it's a complete headf**K and speaking from experience having exhausted and precious director and editor franticaly nervous about the cut matching at such a late and vital stage is about as much fun as having your fingernails puckled out and then eating a bag of salt n vingear crisps.
    Then you only need to harmonise the sound track so that it runs at the equivalent speed of the projected film

    Speaking as a poor bastard who once had to do this. It's not an easy task and you're never given enough time to do.

    Even in this day and age when you finally do your neg cut (finally cut the film to match the picture, years ago it was an irreverisble process) and now you can re edit your neg, you just don't want the precious neg handled too much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Dustaz


    Originally posted by mycroft
    The process is called matchback, and I don't know of a single professional quailty film editor who would use it, it gives them the screaming heepy jeebys to think that some lab tech in england is guessing which frame is the correct one. Only ultra cheap features go for this option, it's a complete headf**K and speaking from experience having exhausted and precious director and editor franticaly nervous about the cut matching at such a late and vital stage is about as much fun as having your fingernails puckled out and then eating a bag of salt n vingear crisps.

    I dont think any features would go down this road. Ive done it once or twice for shorts and it worked out ok. The harmonisation went ok too. I Usually only deal with film for tv so it was a lot less painless of a transition without consulting someone like SoC or ER every ten seconds :)

    Anyway, the future is high def, havent you heard? ;)

    Which post house uses FCP btw? screnscene?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    I dont think any features would go down this road. Ive done it once or twice for shorts and it worked out ok. The harmonisation went ok too. I Usually only deal with film for tv so it was a lot less painless of a transition without consulting someone like SoC or ER every ten seconds

    Yeah I was brought onto a movie when it was found out the assistant and editor had set it up not noticing it was set for 25fps not 24fps...... n:mad:

    Anyway, the future is high def, havent you heard?

    Praise Jesus....... The current fad route and I think it will stay this way for a while, is shoot 35m HD telecine to HD, dub to digi or sp for the offline, go to the HD for a conform for previews...... The big boys on major films still like to sit back after the shoot and watch projected film and probably still will, but thats one of the first things to go if the budget is tight..... But I doubt HD will replace film anytime soon.
    Which post house uses FCP btw? screnscene?

    Yeah they've got one networked to their symphony......


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Hugh_C


    Originally posted by mycroft
    [B
    Yeah they've got one networked to their symphony...... [/B]

    I dod a job on their symph on Saturday and no mention was made of FCP. Are you sure?

    Symphony is an end-of-the-line piece of gear as far as I know...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    Symphony suite in their other building?

    The big swish one?

    The workstation docked beside the symphony next to the mixer is a G4 with final cut pro networked to the symphony....

    Screen scene aren't lavish spenders and they'd never install a bit of kit they don't use........

    One of their assistants is still a good friend and assures me my information is correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Dustaz


    Originally posted by mycroft

    Screen scene aren't lavish spenders and they'd never install a bit of kit they don't use........

    Would any post house do that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    I know at least one post house that has alot of hi def equipment which is rarely if ever used.

    They got it to keep up with the Jones as it were....

    Never equate money with common sense.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭Lump


    Mycroft pointed out that it might be good to sticky this thread. Feel free to add your opinions about editing software, Audio or Visual, that you've used.

    John


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭highdef


    I've just upgraded to Ulead Video Studio 9 after using video Studio 7 and 8 in the past. All I can say is that for value for money and features, it's unbeatable. As I had older versions of the program, I got a 50% discount on the upgrade to version 9. Cost was only $50USD!
    I created a 30 min documentary on the area where I live last year on version 7. Video was shot a 3 chip DV camera. Sold over 600 copies of it on DVD so it can't have been that bad.
    The latest version which I downloaded (can be purchased as a boxed version too) is fantastic. It has full 16:9 support, chroma keying, rubber banding of audio. MWV HD support, video pan & zoom, Overlay Mask Support, DVD burning capabilities including motion menus. It does a hell lot more than that. Check out the ulead website for more details (I don't work for them BTW ;) )
    I've used Premiere 6.5 and although it's very comprehensive, VS9 will do everything I need to do for a fraction of the price and it has some features not in Premiere 6.5.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭delanest


    Hi anybody used VideoWave® 7 Professional.

    I'm new to editing but really enjoy it. I want to do cutting and some effects but nothing specific yet. At the moment I'm using a free cutting tool. Its ok, the only features are cutting, transitions and two sound files.

    The product above is only 50 euro. Is it worth it or should I hold out for something better. I'm not quite ready to spend 700 euro just yet :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭delanest


    I'm also thinking of doing an online video editing FAS course. The course uses MGI VideoWave 5.

    Is this a good product ? info and price etc ?

    thanx


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭Lump


    Not really an editing programme, but for copyright and downloadable music...

    Here: http://creativecommons.org/

    John


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 StOnY_ToNy


    Depending on what you want to do, there are several programs on the market for audio and visual editing. the best all round programme, ie. one thats good for both, would probably be steinbergs Nuendo application.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    StOnY_ToNy wrote:
    Depending on what you want to do, there are several programs on the market for audio and visual editing. the best all round programme, ie. one thats good for both, would probably be steinbergs Nuendo application.

    I've never heard of this product or seen it used professionaly, in video post production, screen shots suggest it a protools with some minor video editing whistles. .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭Lump


    Yea Mycroft... It's actually the Sound editing programme that is used with Pinnacle software. IE, like Avid, it speaks directly to it.

    Rather nice tbh, but not really a video editing programme.

    John


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Lukiebaggs


    davil wrote:
    Just like the MAC itself. Don't waste your money. Windows is almost as good as Mac OS and the PC hardware is easily as good if not better. I won't lie - the MAC is probably better for Video Editing [final cut pro is a great program as far as I can see] but the PC can do it without much hassle at all and costs about a quarter of the price. If you're willing to pay through the nose go for the MAC though.

    I've used Adobe Premiere 6.5 myself and found it excellent in most areas except, as said, DVD production, but you should get your own solution for that anyway. It's a video editing product primarily and its transitions and the ability to overlay is all I want because I am a beginner. I still believe that you can do all the pro stuff on a pc. If I am wrong then I apologise to all you MAC users out there.

    *Edit* by Moderator, don't abuse people. *Edit*

    U can spend alot on either platform AVID is the industry standard and is primarily used on Windows, however Final Cut Pro would proabably be the close 2nd. AVID runs on both, Final Cut only runs on the MAC. If u take ur video work seriously i reccomend using the mac, its easy, intuitive fast reliable and stable.

    Macs run on a OS thats based on UNIX so they aren't affected by Virus's etc.

    Apple's are very affordable if u have anyform of real income. I saved and bought my G5 aged 17 working at Tesco's for christs sake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    Lukiebaggs wrote:
    ur mostly speaking out of ur ass and trying to sound intelligent.

    Hmm yes I can see people who complex words like "you" and "You're" spelt correctly, need to be talked down to by someone who sneering at them yet can't complete full sentences.
    U can spend alot on either platform AVID is the industry standard and is primarily used on Windows, however Final Cut Pro would proabably be the close 2nd. AVID runs on both, Final Cut only runs on the MAC. If u take ur video work seriously i reccomend using the mac, its easy, intuitive fast reliable and stable.

    Macs run on a OS thats based on UNIX so they aren't affected by Virus's etc.

    Yes and if you're serious about editing, you won't have such an important system running on an computer with an internet connection. People like hughchal up there, who is the head of editing for a large post house would be able to tell you that.

    That being said, Avid's move onto PCs is a very recent occurance, it's less than fours years since they brought out their first pc based system, and last year was the first year they introduced a system which is not a cross platform, adrenaline.
    Apple's are very affordable if u have anyform of real income. I saved and bought my G5 aged 17 working at Tesco's for christs sake.

    Good for you. I'd be less sarcastic if

    A) You didn't have such a arrogant and full of yourself attitude.

    B) you said anything remotely new that hadn't already been said on this thread, instead of waltzing in trying to sound like you're imparting vital and new information.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    What's that about not having internet connection on a computer for editing?

    Is that because of viruses? I was planning on keeping my projects on an external hard drive and disconnecting that when the internets on.
    I cant really afford to have an internet computer and an editing one.
    Is it only professionals this applies to or what? Im doing projects for my course on mine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    dory wrote:
    What's that about not having internet connection on a computer for editing?

    Is that because of viruses? I was planning on keeping my projects on an external hard drive and disconnecting that when the internets on.
    I cant really afford to have an internet computer and an editing one.
    Is it only professionals this applies to or what? Im doing projects for my course on mine.

    It's standard practice in the industry, for serious (as in funded) productions to run your system on only on an internal ethernet or a media share network, or as stand alone systems. You'll be getting graphics, fonts, edls etcs from other systems so they're a risk, the idea of losing a day of cutting time because the editor likes to check his mail while he works, and then gets a virus, is just not acceptable in post house or decent sized production.

    Some post houses keep another pc in the room, so if the editor needs this thats fine, others provide internet access (wifi or internal ethernet) so you can hook up a laptop.

    Post houses will at least burn a project backup to CDrom once a week, and I consider that too lazy. It should be once a day. Christ I worked on a job were two assistants had to take a jazz disc with a fresh backup home every night that way if something happened to the project and one of us, they're still be a copy.

    Your suggestion is a sensible one for your own requirements and scope.


  • Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭father_ted9t9


    mycroft wrote:
    Hmm yes I can see people who complex words like "you" and "You're" spelt correctly, need to be talked down to by someone who sneering at them.



    Yes and if you're serious about editing, you won't have such an important system running on an computer with an internet connection. People like hughchal up there, who is the head of editing for a large post house would be able to tell you that.

    That being said, Avid's move onto PCs is a very recent occurance, it's less than fours years since they brought out their first pc based system, and last year was the first year they introduced a system which is not a cross platform, adrenaline.



    Good for you. I'd be less sarcastic if

    A) You didn't have such a sarcastic and full of yourself attitude.

    B) you said anything remotely new that hadn't already been said on this thread, instead of waltzing in trying to sound like you're imparting vital and new information.


    I Think i have to agree with Mycroft on this one, although i do know of 2 tv stations in Ireland and both running Avid on PC's have internet connections on the same machines!

    If your IT People are good enough though, with the use of a firewall and other software, this can be alright.

    Also does anyone know much about FCP HD? I have just started working on a new machine, but for some reason it keeps crashing out on me after 3 mins..very annoying!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    I Think i have to agree with Mycroft on this one, although i do know of 2 tv stations in Ireland and both running Avid on PC's have internet connections on the same machines!

    If your IT People are good enough though, with the use of a firewall and other software, this can be alright.

    Also does anyone know much about FCP HD? I have just started working on a new machine, but for some reason it keeps crashing out on me after 3 mins..very annoying!

    *L* some gob****e back in the day, installed the SETI research program on three internet capable avids, man that pissed tyrell off something big time

    Version 4.5? or Ver 5.0? 5.0 is apparently very buggy. What exactly are you trying to do. Are you working HD?

    I can only help so far, go to this fine people
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-L

    this is a professional FCP user list, so I don't need to tell you (unlike some other recent contributors to this thread) to detail your problem using your version of software, hardware specs, exact crash errors, and what exactly you're doing. It's a community. Better yet search their archives before you ask the list, the anwsers you're looking for may be there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Lukiebaggs


    When you don't know what your talking about retorting by attacking my grammer and spelling on a web board is no kind of come back mycroft. I'm dyslexic - i get my points across - sue me.

    The simple fact is - HE Didn't know what he was talking about.

    And for your Information - IF you had experience on all all kinds of edit systems you would know that Apples are far more stable and are not affected by Virus's - ergo laddy - puting your edit machines on a network with broadband poses little risk if they are apples.

    Its not as commen in Ireland but jus check out the UK or the US, Ireland is fairly behind the pack in terms of using the right computers to get the job done any how. I do undstand why you'd keep windows machine off the internet however, they are far more likely to crash or pick up a virus then a mac.

    I've worked in Screen Screem and Tyrone Productions both of which had edit machines, both of which had PC's and Macs both of which had internet.

    All their files were safe, they were on External HD's behind firewalls so stop your bickering. And MR Snoot - WHO Exactly do you think your giving advice to here? How many people who are working in Production houses come on boards.ie for advice on editing software?

    If you know anything about the modern film industry you must know that there are thousands of film makers world wide who can edit right out of their home on very cheap - and easy to use (yet increasingly powerfull software) Robert Roduiguez Edits out of his Garage - you proabibly havent heard of him though because your so BIG LEAGUE.

    And since you know so much about PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTION HOUSES. <- I would just like to draw your attention to the FACT that They are beng uses less and less by aspireing film makers (there will always be a need for them - but increasingly just by Television networks) - more and more powerfull tools that 20 years ago had to be done in a Productiion house are now available in AVid Premiere Pro, or Final Cut Right out of the box and on your computer.

    Your a *EDIT* Lovely young Man *Edit* - these people are obviously Students or film makers who edit at home - on their own machines - which considering they are asking on Boards.ie - probably have the internet.

    In response to the questions about Final Cut HD - I highly reccommend it, Its got every tool available in Final Cut Pro 4 and deals with HD footage at alarming speeds.


    Dont quarrel with me mycroft - I *Edit* am an argumentative fool *Edit*.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭nubbintom


    I'm a fool.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Hugh_C


    nubbintom wrote:
    just wondering i managed to get a copy of avid, it installs fine but wont launch because i dont have a dongle? a crack came with it but anyone know how to use it without the dongle? :confused::confused:


    Just call Kevin, Bryan or Stuart at 01-888-1118


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