Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

BattleCorp wrote: »

The death penalty is illegal in the EU and EU law has supremacy over our legislation. So a referendum would be a waste of time because we can't change the law even if we wanted to.

Unless of course we do an Irexit.

Isn't it interesting how many posters are advocating the death penalty?
Without considering that we have outlawed it per international treaty obligations, and that it is proven an ineffective sentence in any case?
Even if by some abberation we were to repudiate the treaties, the constitution expressly forbids retrospective application of new laws.

The whole kneejerk to retribution is quite worrying.
That people will agitate for the imposition of the death penalty on children, no matter how heinous their crime is quite an eye opener.

The deserve to be punished, indeed the punishment handed out by the court is one of the strongest that could have been imposed whilst ensuring precedence and sentencing guidelines were followed along with ensuring nothing as spurious as a point of law appeal would be viable.

I would have loved a longer sentence, but the likelihood of anything longer not been overturned on appeal is high.
The court took a very measured approach, it put not just the welfare of Boy A and Boy B high on their list, but also ensured that by allowing their welfare to be considered that the screams from some quarters that we were treating those boys like animals, be drowned out.

One would hope the reviews are carried out competently and that the lack of remorse and acceptance of the verdict by both boys is reflected in the consideration of the reviewing body.

We as a society need to weigh the balance between retribution and rehabilitation.
Is it ok for us as a State to treat those convicted as animals?
If we continue to demonize and abuse them, to dehumanise them.
We do ourselves no good.

We are rushing to blame external factors, porn, schools, parents without reflecting on how our own rhetoric is contributing.

CollyFlower wrote: »

In all the pictures I've seen of Ana she looks happy and carefree, I think it's unfair to blame the whole school for the bullying she went through, she would have been in a class with the same students daily, wouldn't she? Were those two boys in the same class as Ana?

Don't underestimate the ability of teenagers to put on a mask for social media purposes.

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

Sometimes
they dont
they wouldn't
we can't and won't.

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

The US Supreme Court bans the death penalty for anyone under the age of 15. Stop talking out of your arse.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ana-kri%C3%A9gel-was-murdered-by-boys-because-she-was-a-girl-1.4079577

Thanks for posting the article.

There is a massive call to emotion and generalisation of men as potential violent brutes.
That particular article is really using Ana's violent and abhorrent death as a crutch for an argument that Ireland is a society that is permeated by gender based violence and potential rape.

It does very little to frame Ana's death in anything other than the fault of a mysoginist male society.

It is more an academic jumping on a bandwagon than it is a reasoned or balanced analysis.

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

You seem like a pleasant man

KWAG2019 wrote: »

You have obviously seen them as you describe them as “cherry picked sentences”. As anyone who reads it can see it is an opinion piece not an academic article.
She has obviously hit a nerve and ruffled feathers. Emotion best kept out of thinking about the issues she has raised. It’s a very thought provoking piece once people get past the initial stage.

That is precisely my point.
There is no actual citation or attribution for the numbers she has quoted.
She is presenting as a "fact" an unattributed set of numbers.
She then proceeds to use that number to present the male population as mysoginist and being on the cusp of becoming murdering rapists.

There is no academic standing to her opinion, her research in general would also be very indicative of a particular bias.
1 that you are eager to parrot, without asking or examining her supposed evidence.

The piece was an opportunity for a progressive feminist psychology professor to add an article to her publications list.

The whole premise of the article is poor. It's entire thesis is predicated on Irish men being inherently violent towards women, physically and sexually without presenting any evidence other than an abhorrent murder and unattributed statistics.

The article hasn't hit a nerve or ruffled feathers, least not mine.
Prof Muldoon is a good professor, an interesting lecturer but anyone reading this article and thinking it provides an insight into either the motivations or inclinations of boy a and b or indeed of society in general.
Is not really approaching it in a critical manner.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I see no evidence here from you to overturn her article. A lot of agitation certainly. I’ll pass this on to her so she can see if it’s worth a follow up.

So you are claiming the article is answering the mystery of why Ana died ( it doesn't) that it presented statistical evidence (it doesn't, nor was any evidence of such presented) and most importantly that it underpins a justification for male violence against women in the manner in which the perpetrators spoke about Ana (it doesn't, nor was any evidence of such presented).

You say I have presented no evidence to overturn the premise of the article?
The article presents no evidence, none ergo there isn't really anything for me to refute and anyway I'm not trying to refute it.
I'm trying to find the actual basis for the claim that the violence visited upon Ana was as a result of violent societal misogyny.
Further to that, its a fairly accepted fact that one doesn't prove a point by the absence of evidence.
The evidence which is sorely lacking in the article you brought up as insightful.

Now rather than defend your support of her puff piece, you are going to bring it to her attention?
Are your opinions not your own?

If the pronouns for male were substituted with black, or traveller or any other ethnic label it would likely be called out for being inciteful, rather than insightful.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Difficult to know where to start with this without the usual multi quote disaster exchanges that clog up the thread and the real agitation and emotion caused by the article.

To be brief: in post 6832 I gave my opinion about the "mystery" of why Ana died. You can read that and see it goes further than the "blindingly obvious" point made by the IT article. And "blindingly obvious" is correct.

You deny the article presents statistics which is incorrect. It does, the sources are not cited but I dealt with that already.

The reports I saw of the trial mentioned that at least one of the convicted criminals described Ana as "slutty" and a "weirdo". To their mind it obviously gave some justification. Its commonplace and blindlingly obvious that it is a defence used in sexual assault cases.

As far as I can make out from your reply you seem to find the "societal misogyny" particularly objectionable. That's fair enough, you have an opinion about it. The article is brilliant because it illuminates an issue that has been in the media for recent years: Trump, #metoo, prominent rape cases, treatment of women in "revealed" religions, Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, unequal pay, US womens' soccer team pay etc and it makes us think about this. Ruffled feathers are to be expected and to be welcomed but we have to get past those to look at the issue.

Again, it is blindingly obvious that my opinions are mine just as yours are yours. I repeat my view of her opinion piece in the IT; brilliant and insightful. After seeing your attempts to dismiss it I'll add, hugely important and courageous. Criticisms of it are found also in the comments in the IT. Well worth a look.

There are no statistics, the article is presented from a biased viewpoint that is borne out if one reviews Prof Muldoon's body of published papers quite apparent.

Now you are claiming that my "attempts to dismiss" it are indicative of Prof Muldoon's courage in writing it?
That's absolute nonsense.

Noone is dismissing, least of all me is dismissing the article.
At each and every point I've questioned the basis for its assertions.
Your reply again points out and highlights the weakness of the thesis.

The article isn't brilliant.
Its derivitave, laboured, unsupported,unevidenced and highly targeted appeal to emotion
It is scaremongering and quite honestly a near hysterical knee-jerk.

It is a poor article, that appears poorly referenced but I will concede that may have been an editorial decision.

You are holding this article up as some sort of paragon of rightness or an example academic bravery!?

It is anything but.
It is a cut and paste effort that could apply to any violent sexual attack.
It does take the biscuit in laying the blame for an horrific folie a Deux at the feet of male Irish Society.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a the violent death of a young male was laid at the feet of all irish women?
With as little evidence for such an assumption as Ms Muldoon has presented?