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01-11-2018, 10:14   #46
bk
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The Airport and harbour police forces are tiny with limited ability to investigate crime. Also they have been around quite a while I think the Dun Laoghaire harbour police for example date back to 1836 making them the oldest uniformed force in the state. While the airport and port police forces have the power of arrest they then have to hand suspects over to the Gardai for questioning afaik.
I know all that, the point is to give them as examples of organisations that also have all those overheads and costs. If a relatively tiny Harbour and Airport Police can exist, then there is certainly no reason that a larger Transport Police can't exist.

BTW you mentioned a transport police needing, "commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors", with the exception of a commissioner, all those others would be needed anyway even if they were a separate division within the Gardai.

The only real extra cost would maybe be IT and HR and if you wanted you could share those with the Gardai, while keeping everything else separate. Many county councils do that throughout the country.

I think people are greatly overestimating how much it would cost as a separate division.

Even if it was a division within the Gardai, you'd still want them to hire extra Gardai/Transport Police rather then taking from other divisions. You'd still want to open a new police station at/nearby Hueston. You still want to train them up in the specifics of working around rail. You'd still need detectives, sergeants and inspectors. All those costs would still be the same either way.

The only question would it be more effective if it was independent or not.
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01-11-2018, 21:14   #47
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I know all that, the point is to give them as examples of organisations that also have all those overheads and costs. If a relatively tiny Harbour and Airport Police can exist, then there is certainly no reason that a larger Transport Police can't exist.

BTW you mentioned a transport police needing, "commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors", with the exception of a commissioner, all those others would be needed anyway even if they were a separate division within the Gardai.

The only real extra cost would maybe be IT and HR and if you wanted you could share those with the Gardai, while keeping everything else separate. Many county councils do that throughout the country.

I think people are greatly overestimating how much it would cost as a separate division.

Even if it was a division within the Gardai, you'd still want them to hire extra Gardai/Transport Police rather then taking from other divisions. You'd still want to open a new police station at/nearby Hueston. You still want to train them up in the specifics of working around rail. You'd still need detectives, sergeants and inspectors. All those costs would still be the same either way.

The only question would it be more effective if it was independent or not.
You'd need Sergeants alright and perhaps some Superintendents for the force but I doubt you'd need detectives and inspectors as these roles could be shared with regular Gardai.

No reason why you couldn't assign a mixture of serving Gardai and ones fresh out of Templemore to a transport police unit with extra training for rail. I don't think it would really make a huge difference if it was independent but I think but I think a Garda unit would be more cost effective and would work in the same way if done right. A Garda unit may have better public relations than a new police force too.

Also a with a new police force you'd mostly have to train up all new officers bar ones who moved from AGS, the PSNI and ones who were merged in from the harbour/airport police forces. You'd need a new training centre whereas with a Garda unit it could all be done in Templemore and on IE property.
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01-11-2018, 22:05   #48
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In the UK BTP cadets train alongside other police cadets in whatever police force college is local. They then undergo extra training (PTS etc).

For example, the Scottish Police College in Tullyalan trains all officers for Police Scotland and and BTP officers that will be based in Scotland.

If the same were to be applied here, any ITP officer would train to the same standard as a Garda in Templemore first.
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03-11-2018, 01:20   #49
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If we had transport police they might focus on the real issues, like that bus driver convicted last week for killing a cyclist( but not for manslaughter because thats too much responsibility to heap on a person driving a multi tonne vehicle into a defenceless person)

Every day I cycle in Dublin, I see bus and coach drivers driving in mandatory cycle lanes
When I used to work near the Swan on Aungier st. Dublin, I saw a bus driver go through red lights every other day
Irish rail boast about the number of fare dodgers they get but never mention any convictions or even prosecutions for those drivers who crash into bridges
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03-11-2018, 01:30   #50
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If we had transport police they might focus on the real issues, like that bus driver convicted last week for killing a cyclist( but not for manslaughter because thats too much responsibility to heap on a person driving a multi tonne vehicle into a defenceless person)

Every day I cycle in Dublin, I see bus and coach drivers driving in mandatory cycle lanes
When I used to work near the Swan on Aungier st. Dublin, I saw a bus driver go through red lights every other day
Irish rail boast about the number of fare dodgers they get but never mention any convictions or even prosecutions for those drivers who crash into bridges
Had has a transport police got to do with cyclists and bus drivers. Transport police forces or police units like we are talking about here typically only police rail infrastructure such as stations, trains and track while road is usually governed by traffic police ie the Garda Traffic Corps.
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03-11-2018, 02:24   #51
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If we had transport police they might focus on the real issues, like that bus driver convicted last week for killing a cyclist( but not for manslaughter because thats too much responsibility to heap on a person driving a multi tonne vehicle into a defenceless person)

Every day I cycle in Dublin, I see bus and coach drivers driving in mandatory cycle lanes
When I used to work near the Swan on Aungier st. Dublin, I saw a bus driver go through red lights every other day
Irish rail boast about the number of fare dodgers they get but never mention any convictions or even prosecutions for those drivers who crash into bridges
They are traffic issues not transport. Google the British Transport Police.

This is what we are talking about. An Irish equivalent. Cyclists need not be concerned.

Cyclists are as thick as car drivers. I hate RT but here is a link of a cyclist breaking a red and audible alarms at a LC in the UK.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r2BQFpp8P0s


This person was lucky. If they were not, there could be 1000+ body parts spread over a 1-3 mile stretch.

And the transport police would need to find every last bit.

Last edited by prinzeugen; 03-11-2018 at 02:30.
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03-11-2018, 14:59   #52
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I know all that, the point is to give them as examples of organisations that also have all those overheads and costs. If a relatively tiny Harbour and Airport Police can exist, then there is certainly no reason that a larger Transport Police can't exist.

BTW you mentioned a transport police needing, "commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors", with the exception of a commissioner, all those others would be needed anyway even if they were a separate division within the Gardai.

The only real extra cost would maybe be IT and HR and if you wanted you could share those with the Gardai, while keeping everything else separate. Many county councils do that throughout the country.

I think people are greatly overestimating how much it would cost as a separate division.

Even if it was a division within the Gardai, you'd still want them to hire extra Gardai/Transport Police rather then taking from other divisions. You'd still want to open a new police station at/nearby Hueston. You still want to train them up in the specifics of working around rail. You'd still need detectives, sergeants and inspectors. All those costs would still be the same either way.

The only question would it be more effective if it was independent or not.
Think you're underestimating the cost. Airport Police and Harbour Police have tiny areas to police so only need one station, a few vehicles and a limited number of supervising officers and regular beat officers. For a properly equipped transport police we would need multiples of that, then you would have to decide if the transport police would actually hold and process prisoners, execute bench warrants of people they come across who have them, take them to court, give evidence in court (this all takes a lot of time, usually OT, so money) and all the stuff that harbour and airport police do not do. If they don't, then Garda budget would have to be accordingly increased to deal with those situations. I think it would be quite expensive to do.
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05-11-2018, 15:17   #53
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Think you're underestimating the cost. Airport Police and Harbour Police have tiny areas to police so only need one station, a few vehicles and a limited number of supervising officers and regular beat officers. For a properly equipped transport police we would need multiples of that, then you would have to decide if the transport police would actually hold and process prisoners, execute bench warrants of people they come across who have them, take them to court, give evidence in court (this all takes a lot of time, usually OT, so money) and all the stuff that harbour and airport police do not do. If they don't, then Garda budget would have to be accordingly increased to deal with those situations. I think it would be quite expensive to do.
You really wouldn't need many stations. Just two would nicely cover the Dublin Region. One at/near Hueston and Connolly.

At Connolly, they would have access to DART, Northern line, Maynooth Line, Red Luas Line and Busaras and only a short distance to all the buses at O'Connell St, Quays and Green Luas line. And of course Store Street Garda station is right there and if there was space they could be housed there or at Connolly if not.

At Hueston you can cover the Cork line, Red Luas line, lots of the buses heading to the East of the city.

No one is saying that they wouldn't work with and have a close relationship with the Gardai. Gardai could still of course respond to an incident on a bus if they are closer or if a transport police offer arrested some one further out, they could drop them off to the nearest Garda station.

It is more about having a force that is completely focused on and dedicated to policing public transport and the unique issues it experiences.

If they are another division in the Gardai, I can guarantee they will be pulled off to other areas in no time and we will be back at square one.
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05-11-2018, 22:53   #54
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The way the transportation network is at the moment it is only inevitable before something like this needs to be established. The best way of setting it up would be to have no associated links to STT who currently do the trains and luas as security guards only.

Management and boards can established within the Department of Justice as it will be governed by that Department.


For such a force it would require a complaints commission which needs to set up separate from GSOC.

As for IT I believe it is a simple link of a Tetra based channel as all law/security enforcement are currently using it. The UK currently use a three way channel with Transport police/Regular police and PCOS's who are employed by the council. If an incident somehow comes to attention of all three agencies they refer to the three way channel.

With transport police it can work independently just like people working in the airport immgratation areas. They are Dept of Justice Clerical officers/Border agents and are not affiliated with anybody other than Justice and immigration. The officers in immgration interlink the investigations with An Garda Siochana so that would be a great template to build on.

Last edited by Sgt. Bilko 09; 05-11-2018 at 23:02.
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05-11-2018, 23:06   #55
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If they are another division in the Gardai, I can guarantee they will be pulled off to other areas in no time and we will be back at square one.
I would assume such a unit would have to be funded by either or a mixture of CIE, IE, DoT, NTA, TII and/or Transdev also the DAA, DLHC and DPC (if airport and harbour police were to be included) rather than by the DoJ. I would sincerely hope that the organisations mentioned above would be holding AGS fully to account and ensuring that adquete Garda cover is ensured at all times. Just like the way concert promoters have to pay for their own Garda cover and Network Rail and TOCs fund the BTP.
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06-11-2018, 10:16   #56
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It would only make sense if a transport police was funded through the Department of Transport Vote. Separate budget, reporting lines and accounting officer.

Transport policing is not and never will be a priority for the Department of Justice.
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06-11-2018, 10:16   #57
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It would only make sense if a transport police was funded through the Department of Transport Vote. Separate budget, reporting lines and accounting officer.

Transport policing is not and never will be a priority for the Department of Justice.
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06-11-2018, 19:48   #58
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Keeping them far FAR away from Templemore would also be advantageous.
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06-11-2018, 19:53   #59
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I agree there is other priorities for justice. It won't be set up in the near future knowing our government (past & present) maybe not at all. They cannot even run a reserve force as it is so this is something out of sorts for them to set up.

I do believe law enforcement is and should be kept under the remit of Justice. For better workings in court and using the DPP handling clerk's like Gardai do. Garda services centre would need to work Transport police given any any arrest and conviction and fines that are required for pulse. Pulse is bought and administered by Dept of Justice this wouldn't and will not be shared externally so I can't imagine NTA or anyone CIE have any sort of access for ops reasons. I can't imagine how a transportation policing system could work with Gardai requiring this information also.

Internally conflicts of interests would most definitely arise considering as public transportation strikes that would have an impact policing, where as AGS/PSNI cannot strike. I believe Policing cannot fall under NTA as this would mean that Union's and boards and it's own separate Court appearance officers would need to be separate yet work in tandem.
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Yesterday, 00:30   #60
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Renewed calls for this

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018...nsport-police/
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