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14-08-2018, 20:11   #16
Insect Overlord
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To be fair, the official standard is a handy catch-all for State Exams and third level exams. And the French comparison might not be a great one, considering how they've damaged their regional dialects and langues d"oïl over the years as well! But I do disagree with learners getting punished for using their canúint of choice in written exams.

Some of it, I suppose, can be justified by critique of the register of language. Something can be perfectly acceptable in colloquial conversation, or on social media, or in prose, but may still be considered crude or vulgar or inappropriate in other scenarios.

Last edited by Insect Overlord; 14-08-2018 at 20:19.
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14-08-2018, 20:24   #17
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No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote in 1915:

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People who never heard a word of Irish spoken go and learn a little Irish, and then, the moment they think they understand a little of the language, they proceed to explain all about it to those who have been speaking it all their lives. They would not dare to do that with regard to French, or with regard to any other language which was foreign to them. It is a sad thing to see the Irish language at the mercy of such people.
At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.
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14-08-2018, 20:27   #18
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Why should Cork Irish have been imposed on learners in Waterford or Conamara or Donegal, any more than the Caighdeán Oifigiúil? We'd still be having the same arguments today, but maybe with one or two happier counties.
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14-08-2018, 20:30   #19
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Cork Irish is closer than any other Irish to the Irish of the poetry of the 17th and 18th centuries, but now, with few speakers in Cork, it would be hard to install as a standard. They ought to pick Conemara Irish, exactly as it is spoken, as the standard and as the largest dialect, and write that.
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14-08-2018, 20:33   #20
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The hatred of the Gaelthacht is pronounced in the Irish learning community - because they resent the greater proficiency of the Gaelthacht. I was told on the Acmhainn mailing list (ultimately part of Foras na G) by one person:

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Ní ghéillim don tuairim nach bhfuil focal ná nath Gaeilge bailí murar chualathas é i bportach nó ar chladach.
These guys are openly contemptuous of the Gaelthacht natives - not even disguising their view that they are just "boggers" and so they won't accept their Irish.
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14-08-2018, 20:35   #21
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No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote in 1915:



At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.
Aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leat. Tá Gaeilge dhúchasach na Gaeltachta níos saibhre, níos deise agus i bhfad níos fearr ná Gaeilge nua na caithrach. Ach, cén fáth gur tháinig an caighdeán ar an saol? Mar bhí lucht na gaeilge taobh amuigh des na gaeltachtaí mí-shásta leis an éagsúlacht go léir i dtaobh na gaeilge de ar fud na tíre.
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14-08-2018, 20:43   #22
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Tá an ceart agat, a DS -- nílid na canúintí beó róchóngarach dá chéile, agus b'fhéidir go raibh a lán diospóireachta i gcónaí i measc na n-aistritheóirí i dtaobh cad iad na fuirmeacha is cirte agus cad ab iad na haistriúcháin is feárr le húsáid go mór mór in obair aistriúcháin an Oireachtais. Agus nuair a thugas freagra don phostaer bunaidh (the OP) do thugas fé ndeara ná raibh aon tsuím aige in sna canúintíbh agus gur dóichí gur scoláire é agus ceist aige a chur anso ar an gCaighdéan, agus mar sin do sheólas é chun Teanglann (suíomh go bhfuil na fuirmeacha 'caighdeanacha' mar dhea ann, agus mar sin na fuirmeacha is oiriúnaí dho).
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16-08-2018, 20:34   #23
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The most tiresom thing in the world is a learner s***ing on other learners and using native speakers to justify their opinions.

I know loads of learners of Irish and I work in the Gaeltacht. I have never come accross any antagonism between both groups in real life. People from the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, have little dificulty with standardised Irish and recognise it as being a useful medium for official texts.

The only concern I have ever encountered in the Gaeltacht is that the local dialect should be accepted as equally valid in exams.
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16-08-2018, 20:47   #24
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I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
Thanks.
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16-08-2018, 21:20   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tayto lover View Post
I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
Thanks.

I would recommend Myles Dillon's Teach Yourself Irish, 1961 version, and then to start on a real work, Peadar Ua Laoghaire's Aesop a Tháinig go hÉirinn - Aesop's fables, which are all short and easy.
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16-08-2018, 21:23   #26
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Originally Posted by Imreoir2 View Post
The most tiresom thing in the world is a learner s***ing on other learners and using native speakers to justify their opinions.

I know loads of learners of Irish and I work in the Gaeltacht. I have never come accross any antagonism between both groups in real life. People from the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, have little dificulty with standardised Irish and recognise it as being a useful medium for official texts.

The only concern I have ever encountered in the Gaeltacht is that the local dialect should be accepted as equally valid in exams.

Imreóir2, it may depend on the Gaeltacht. Which Gaeltacht do you work in? Maybe in Conemara they view the CO as closest to Galway Irish and so they're happy with it? I've been told by numerous people in Muskerry that the CO is rubbish - and that they spoilt the language when they brought in an artificial standard. Clearly there is a range of view on this even in the Gaeltacht itself. And no - real Irish is not accepted in exams. And not a sentence of the local dialect is on the school curriculum in the Gaeltacht.
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16-08-2018, 21:26   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tayto lover View Post
I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
Thanks.
Taytolover, are you based in Dublin?
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16-08-2018, 21:28   #28
tayto lover
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Taytolover, are you based in Dublin?
N. Louth.
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16-08-2018, 21:30   #29
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N. Louth.
Ah, right. You should see if there are maidin caifés on in your town/village. They have been springing up all over the country. Basically, a group of people meet in a cafe and converse in Irish. My father attends one every day in different parts of Dublin and many of the people who attend are beginners. My dad also teaches a class for beginners in St Enda's Park in Rathfarnham - Pádraig Pearse's old haunt.
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16-08-2018, 21:31   #30
Imreoir2
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real Irish is not accepted in exams. And not a sentence of the local dialect is on the school curriculum in the Gaeltacht.
If schools in your area are not doing this, then it should be brought up with the bord of managment. It is certainly addressed in the schools where I work.

I know that local dialects are accepted in exams at third level, and it is my understanding that it is accepted for the leaving cert.

Have you heard of the Polasaí Oideachais Gaeltachta? Saibhrú Teanga is going to be an important part of the school system.
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