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16-08-2017, 23:19   #31
liger
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Fares have risen to astronomical amounts in recent times compared to other European cities
No they haven't. The fares have remained steady for the last couple of years. 2cent increase to schoolkids fare on the leap card and rise for xpresso if I recall right.

Not that DB or GA control that.
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16-08-2017, 23:23   #32
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No they haven't. The fares have remained steady for the last couple of years. 2cent increase to schoolkids fare on the leap card and rise for xpresso if I recall right.

Not that DB or GA control that.
The way it currently is that DB propose the changes and the NTA have the final say on them, generally DB have looked for more than they have got for most of the last few years on single fares.

The new model that GoAhead will be on from when they start and Dublin Bus will be on after 2019 is that there will be no proposals made and it will be a solely NTA decision.
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16-08-2017, 23:34   #33
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No they haven't. The fares have remained steady for the last couple of years. 2cent increase to schoolkids fare on the leap card and rise for xpresso if I recall right.

Not that DB or GA control that.
Well they're still way more expensive compared to other European cities with far better public transport systems. As I said earlier London is only £1.50 flat fare for a trip plus a transfer within 90 mins and Paris is only €1.90 for a ticket valid on buses and metro.
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16-08-2017, 23:38   #34
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The new model that GoAhead will be on from when they start and Dublin Bus will be on after 2019 is that there will be no proposals made and it will be a solely NTA decision.
If they win the tender that is.
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16-08-2017, 23:44   #35
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DB proposed a flat fare during before the NTA's inception one of the better ideas regarding public transport however this was blocked by the jobsworths in the DoT who were calling the shots at the time.
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16-08-2017, 23:51   #36
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DB proposed a flat fare during before the NTA's inception one of the better ideas regarding public transport however this was blocked by the jobsworths in the DoT who were calling the shots at the time.
Thing is it's very simplistic to say that DB proposed a flat fare, they did do it but I'm sure there were caveats and conditions attached to it over who is going to take the revenue risk and what would happen if it didn't work out and the effect that it would have on PSO subsidy for instance and the cost to the taxpayer.

Implementing a flat fare system sounds like you just one day decide to charge everyone the same but in reality it's just not as simple as that as there are many things and factors that will be affected by such changes that are going to have to be worked out before any such system is a goer.

Having an intergrated ticketing system with one ticket valid on everything is even more complicated because you have several companies all of which have their own requirements, revenue needs and none of them are going to give up any revenue without a fight at the end of the day because they will look after number one.

The difference with the other countries is they tend to all have been one system and a central pot has been getting revenue and the operators have been paid set fees for some time, this is the model that the NTA is trying to move towards, but it's not going to be something that can happen relatively quickly since operators are used to taking fares and keeping them rather than being paid a set fee as is common in Europe.
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17-08-2017, 00:04   #37
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Having an intergrated ticketing system with one ticket valid on everything is even more complicated because you have several companies all of which have their own requirements, revenue needs and none of them are going to give up any revenue without a fight at the end of the day because they will look after number one.

The difference with the other countries is they tend to all have been one system and a central pot has been getting revenue and the operators have been paid set fees for some time, this is the model that the NTA is trying to move towards, but it's not going to be something that can happen relatively quickly since operators are used to taking fares and keeping them rather than being paid a set fee as is common in Europe.
That is why I reckon DB should have been given the tender to operate the Luas. A flat fare valid on Bus and Luas. Irish Rail who would have been easy enough to get as a fellow CIE company.

Another thing is on the continent on buses they operate an open system with two or three door sometimes even four door buses. Even on London buses currently despite not having cash on board its the responsibility of the driver to make sure passengers tag on. On the continent the drivers sole responsibility is to drive the bus.

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17-08-2017, 00:20   #38
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That is why I reckon DB should have been given the tender to operate the Luas.
Nobody can be given a tender, if it is a tender people bid and the one who scores the highest on the set criteria wins at the end of the day, anything else would be illegal and would be in a breach of EU Law.

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A flat fare valid on Bus and Luas. Irish Rail who would have been easy enough to get as a fellow CIE company.
Judging by how long Bus and Train were in common ownership and they managed to do pretty much no intergration over the years, I wouldn't fancy the chances of that happening because CIE have an abysmal record when it comes to intergrating their sister companies apart from co-locating them in the same facilities.

Plus at the end of the day even if they were, it still doesn't resolve the problems that I mentioned as you will still have caveats and conditions attached to it over who is going to take the revenue risk and what would happen if it didn't work out and the effect that it would have on PSO subsidy for instance and the cost to the taxpayer.

Almost all intergrated transport tickets are based on revenue going to a fixed pot and the operators paid a fee to run a particular service, otherwise the system cannot work properly because it introduces lots of headaches such as who gets what part of the revenue from a ticket and why and that ALWAYS creates disputes between providers who are all going to want to look after their bottom line. So it's the norm to remove that problem entirely by taking farebox revenue out of the equation totally.

For example in Warsaw you have several different bus contractors, a metro company, a tram company and a suburban rail company, they are all seperate legal entitites and none of them sell tickets as the tickets are sold by ZTM (their version of the NTA), there is no such thing as a bus ticket or a tram ticket or a rail ticket, they're all automatically intermodal, how that revenue is divided up is decided by ZTM who also take all the revenue risk and it's been very successful as it minimises disagreements between operators, turf wars and people fighting over the revenue percentage they take of a multi-mode ticket.
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17-08-2017, 00:29   #39
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Judging by how long Bus and Train were in common ownership and they managed to do pretty much no intergration over the years, I wouldn't fancy the chances of that happening because CIE have an abysmal record when it comes to intergrating their sister companies apart from co-locating them in the same facilities.

Plus at the end of the day even if they were, it still doesn't resolve the problems that I mentioned as you will still have caveats and conditions attached to it over who is going to take the revenue risk and what would happen if it didn't work out and the effect that it would have on PSO subsidy for instance and the cost to the taxpayer.

Almost all intergrated transport tickets are based on revenue going to a fixed pot and the operators paid a fee to run a particular service, otherwise the system cannot work properly because it introduces lots of headaches such as who gets what part of the revenue from a ticket and why and that ALWAYS creates disputes between providers who are all going to want to look after their bottom line. So it's the norm to remove that problem entirely by taking farebox revenue out of the equation totally.
There actually were intergrated DB and IE, DB and Luas and Luas and IE tickets before Leap was introduced just none valid on all three.
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17-08-2017, 00:38   #40
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There actually were intergrated DB and IE, DB and Luas and Luas and IE tickets before Leap was introduced just none valid on all three.
A moment ago you were talking about single tickets and flat fares now for some reason you've switched focus to something completely different such as period passes which is a totally different kettle of fish completely. I was talking about your average farebox revenue mainly, not monthly and yearly passes and you were too I thought for the previous posts?

I suspect that the reason we don't have flat single fares is that Dublin Bus proposed a flat fare system to be brought in under the conditions that the DOT would reimburse them for any loss of revenue and the DOT felt that there was a reasonable chance that the impact taken on Dublin Bus farebox revenue could potentially create a funding deficit that the DOT would not have the resources to plug due to a lack of adequate finances.

As I said, saying that they turned down a flat fare system and they're evil is a very simplistic way of looking at things as a number of things have to be taken into account and without knowing their full reasoning for why they turned it down and the conditions that Dublin Bus were proposing, it's impossible to fully judge, we're just guessing really, the devil, as always is in the detail and the detail sadly we don't have for this.
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17-08-2017, 01:28   #41
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A moment ago you were talking about single tickets and flat fares now for some reason you've switched focus to something completely different such as period passes which is a totally different kettle of fish completely. I was talking about your average farebox revenue mainly, not monthly and yearly passes and you were too I thought for the previous posts?
When you mentioned farebox revenue I assumed we were talking about all types of tickets purchased. Is this not classified as the same type of revenue as fares paid on the bus if thats the case then DB's farebox is much less now compared to pre leap days.
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17-08-2017, 02:05   #42
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IS there a longer term plan to wean DB off farebox revenue & transfer facilities out of their ownership? If say the next 10% of routes are to be tendered in 2020-21, then the following 10% etc at what point do you start to address the facilities and fare structure, and indeed the fare transfers structure between NTA controlled and DB controlled routes (in terms of fare box allocations)
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17-08-2017, 06:29   #43
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IS there a longer term plan to wean DB off farebox revenue & transfer facilities out of their ownership? If say the next 10% of routes are to be tendered in 2020-21, then the following 10% etc at what point do you start to address the facilities and fare structure, and indeed the fare transfers structure between NTA controlled and DB controlled routes (in terms of fare box allocations)
It's "fair" () to say,that one of the significant errors made during the initial preparations for the introduction of the ITS scheme to Dublin,was the decision to defer Integration to a later date in the proceedings.

The Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group DID give consideration to the issue,but in time honoured Irish fashion,left it behind for somebody else to sort out.

That failure,was catastrophic for the value of the concept,and could have revolutionized how Leapcard functioned from the beginning,rather than now having to attempt to impose order upon chaos,when positions have become more entrenched....
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17-08-2017, 08:00   #44
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IS there a longer term plan to wean DB off farebox revenue & transfer facilities out of their ownership? If say the next 10% of routes are to be tendered in 2020-21, then the following 10% etc at what point do you start to address the facilities and fare structure, and indeed the fare transfers structure between NTA controlled and DB controlled routes (in terms of fare box allocations)
2019 for the farebox - the direct award element will go to the same structure

The depots are owned by CIE Group Property who will likely be willing to rent them out to others but expect union backlash as always
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17-08-2017, 09:55   #45
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It's "fair" () to say,that one of the significant errors made during the initial preparations for the introduction of the ITS scheme to Dublin,was the decision to defer Integration to a later date in the proceedings.
I agree completely, this is a mistake that many companies and in particular government organisations make. You have a broken process and rather then fix the broken process, they turn it into an IT project, thinking that IT will fix the process when of course it doesn't it just replicates the old broken process (as per the specs given) and now adds an extra layer of complexity to it.

Integrated paper ticketing has existed all across Europe for the past 50 years, we should have done the same first before then moving to smartcards/leap.
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