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15-08-2017, 22:32   #16
devnull
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Originally Posted by dfx- View Post
Aaaaaargh. The farebox point again.

and if they decide the set fare given to them is not enough?

Will this "but it's not about the farebox" argument ever please die?
Indeed, it's quite a tiresome argument because we're still talking about GoAhead being given fares even though it's been explained more times than I care to remember that they are not getting any fares whatsoever.

Just as you wish the "but it's not about the farebox" argument to die I'm sure that other people wish the opposite argument that is continually being used about increasing fares would die, but sadly it's showing no signs of doing so but plenty of people are still spreading misinformation about fares on social media on an everyday basis.

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Ah, so that's alright then, they can just pull out. No problems with that at all so, no need to worry about finding an operator for routes that were not wanted this time round.
Do you really think that the contract is going to be drawn up by people who are going to allow for that to happen. If they sign a contact I doubt it will be easy for them to stop paying it because it will be watertight and even if there is a break clause, which is highly highly unlikely, I can imagine it says that they would need to give notice.

I haven't seen the LUAS walk away from their contract even though there is a similar arrangement there, but lets not let an example of reality get in the way of what is simply scaremongering without any presdecent.
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16-08-2017, 07:50   #17
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and if they decide the set fare given to them is not enough?.
They fire the person who priced the tender and either increase the bid or pull out at re-tendering

They are never going to get access to farebox revenue despite what the fantasists think
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16-08-2017, 11:56   #18
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Do you really think that the contract is going to be drawn up by people who are going to allow for that to happen. If they sign a contact I doubt it will be easy for them to stop paying it because it will be watertight and even if there is a break clause, which is highly highly unlikely, I can imagine it says that they would need to give notice.

I haven't seen the LUAS walk away from their contract even though there is a similar arrangement there, but lets not let an example of reality get in the way of what is simply scaremongering without any presdecent.
What if they fulfil the term of this tender - 5 years or whatever it is and then don't operate a day further. What if they give loads of notice and no-one is interested? They're not walking away or breaking any clause, they're just pulling out at re-tendering.

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They fire the person who priced the tender and either increase the bid or pull out at re-tendering

They are never going to get access to farebox revenue despite what the fantasists think
It's a moot point whether they get their income from the farebox or not. This is the fallacy behind "but it's not about the farebox" rebuttal.

What happens when they pull out at re-tendering? Are we stuck at the stage of "well we'll just see who is interested then".

Last edited by dfx-; 16-08-2017 at 12:04.
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16-08-2017, 11:56   #19
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Saying that they can access the farebox is like saying that the cleaners and catering companies that Irish Rail contract out those services too can access the farebox!

Irish Rail puts out a tender for catering/cleaning/etc. services and companies who specialise in those services bid on the contract and agree a fixed price for their services from Irish Rail.

Those companies certainly can't access the fares IR collect or dictate the fares.

This is no different. The NTA puts out a tender for companies to operate a bunch of bus routes. The companies bid on those routes and the winner has agreed on a fixed price for operating on them.

Go Ahead has no more power to dictate fares then the cleaners on the trains do!
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16-08-2017, 12:08   #20
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What if they fulfil the term of this tender - 5 years or whatever it is and then don't operate a day further. What if they give loads of notice and no-one is interested? They're not walking away or breaking any clause, they're just pulling out at re-tendering.

but it doesn't matter whether they ever get near the farebox or not. The general point stands about their income - wherever it comes from, not whether it's from the farebox.

What happens when they pull out at re-tendering? Are we stuck at the stage of "well we'll just see who is interested then".
Looks like we're back to circles again.

There are a multitude of reasons why from six bidders only two remained and every single tender is going to be different for a multitude of factors, be that current company position in Ireland, the location and geographical spread of the routes, the financial health and situation in the companies who may be interested in bidding, local market conditions in their core business, the list is endless.

One of the biggest barriers to entry is that we have one massive transport company that has had so much of the share of the pie for so long that nobody in Ireland has operations of scale or the levels of finance to bid themselves because they never have had facilities built for them and have to start afresh and have never been given the chance to build big scale operations

That's a symptom of how much control CIE have had on transport throughout the years more than anything, the overall domanance of one company who has got given a contract to them every time without anyone else getting a sniff is exactly the reason that no other companies have been able to build up the same scale.

In any case, two bids is certainly better than one and many times better than giving someone a contract without any bids whatsoever and this bundle was always going to be the hardest bundle to operate for a new operator because of all of the factors I've listed above.

As I said before I haven't seen the LUAS walk away from their contract even though they have a very similar arrangement, but lets not allow something based on reality get in a way of what is a bunch of scaremongering and what ifs and maybes that are being constantly trotted out.
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16-08-2017, 12:15   #21
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It's a moot point whether they get their income from the farebox or not. This is the fallacy behind "but it's not about the farebox" rebuttal.
Not much issue with a potential fallacious rebuttal to a claim of absolute nonsense. Tendering the routes is not going to cause fares to rise, despite whatever the union bots are pushing. However, its not fallacious in the slightest.

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What happens when they pull out at re-tendering? Are we stuck at the stage of "well we'll just see who is interested then".
Yes, just as if we would have been if nobody tendered this time. That is how tenders work.
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16-08-2017, 13:49   #22
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Tendering the routes is not going to cause fares to rise, despite whatever the union bots are pushing.
there is no evidence they won't long term. the fixed fee has to come from somewhere and we do have to think about the long term in terms of that fee potentially having to rise to take account of certain factors.
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16-08-2017, 13:52   #23
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there is no evidence they won't long term. the fixed fee has to come from somewhere and we do have to think about the long term in terms of that fee potentially having to rise to take account of certain factors.
But that is no different then Dublin Bus. They have been pushing for significant price rises for years!
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16-08-2017, 15:17   #24
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there is no evidence they won't long term. the fixed fee has to come from somewhere and we do have to think about the long term in terms of that fee potentially having to rise to take account of certain factors.
Just like the PSO subsidy for Dublin Bus, then. And hence not affected by tendering

You're not arguing against the point here.
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16-08-2017, 15:54   #25
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there is no evidence they won't long term. the fixed fee has to come from somewhere and we do have to think about the long term in terms of that fee potentially having to rise to take account of certain factors.
Of course fares will rise, just like the price of basically everything ever rises with time. That's the case whether these routes go out to tender or not.
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16-08-2017, 17:15   #26
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Of course fares will rise, just like the price of basically everything ever rises with time. That's the case whether these routes go out to tender or not.
Fares have risen to astronomical amounts in recent times compared to other European cities but Leap fares have remained more or less the same bar maybe a slight rise. The €2.60 flat fare for more than 13 stages is a ripoff considering a bus fare in London is a £1.50 flat fare and you use another bus for free within 90 minutes.
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16-08-2017, 17:58   #27
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Fares have risen to astronomical amounts in recent times compared to other European cities but Leap fares have remained more or less the same bar maybe a slight rise. The €2.60 flat fare for more than 13 stages is a ripoff considering a bus fare in London is a £1.50 flat fare and you use another bus for free within 90 minutes.
I seem to remember a load of fanfare over this and Sadiq Khan showing up all over the place talking about it - is the fare in London heavily subsidised I wonder.
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16-08-2017, 17:59   #28
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The London model is similar to what the NTA are bringing in here.

Routes are tendered,operators are paid set fees, farebox revenue to TFL who set fares and take all revenue risk.
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16-08-2017, 18:00   #29
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I seem to remember a load of fanfare over this and Sadiq Khan showing up all over the place talking about it - is the fare in London heavily subsidised I wonder.
Only a few years ago it was just 90p !!
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16-08-2017, 18:22   #30
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The London model is similar to what the NTA are bringing in here.

Routes are tendered,operators are paid set fees, farebox revenue to TFL who set fares and take all revenue risk.
The NTA already set the fares
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