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13-05-2017, 18:47   #46
Stephen15
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Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.
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13-05-2017, 18:54   #47
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Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.
it actually is very much everything to do with unions if there could be potential for any proposed changes to effect the members negatively.
in saying that, i would agree staff currently have nothing to be consulted on as no specifics have been proposed.
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13-05-2017, 19:00   #48
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Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.
This is the crux of many of the problems with public transport in this country.

Too much interference and people putting their own agendas over the bigger picture, you're seeing it with the car park owners dictating the way our roads are used and who gets priority, you see it with unions demanding to be consulted on changes to how the bus service is managed, you see it with politicians also interfering in order to win votes in their area even if it leads to a far worse service for a higher number of people.

The trouble is in reality if you try and please everyone you end up pleasing nobody, which is one of the reasons that the network is the way it is at the moment, it's trying to be everything to all people and give everyone what they want, which means what you end up with is the mess we have at present.

There's an excellent article from around 5 years ago on the same thing that says it well:
https://www.citylab.com/transportati...ransport/3657/

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A greater problem might be the city's transit history: the local bus system is so engrained in the culture that people fear losing a "direct" connection to the city center — even though the BRT network that could replace the local buses would get them there more quickly.
The likes of O'Leary couldn't care less about the public service element of the jobs that their members do. They simply care about doing whatever is best for their members, ironically spending their whole time moaning about management not managing properly, whilst the whole time not allowing management to manage because everything has to be approved by them first and saying that they should be consulted.

This is fundamentally why the public and semi-state sector is flawed in Ireland, it was intended to be set-up to serve the public first and foremost but is not effective in doing so because the Public Sector unions believe that they should be consulted on every single change that is made well before the good of the public is considered, which is against the whole idea of a public sector company which is set-up to avoid vested interests. This is something that does not happen in the likes of Germany where the public is First and last.
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13-05-2017, 19:03   #49
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it actually is very much everything to do with unions if there could be potential for any proposed changes to effect the members negatively.
It's a public service, the public must come first, that is the whole idea of a public company, ahead of the vested interests of private gain and other parties* as the unions have been happily stating over and over again after the last number of months.

* Unless it's them, in which case it's perfectly allowed.
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13-05-2017, 19:06   #50
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The likes of O'Leary couldn't care less about the public service element of the jobs that their members do. They simply care about doing whatever is best for their members, ironically spending their whole time moaning about management not managing properly, whilst the whole time not allowing management to manage because everything has to be approved by them first and saying that they should be consulted.
but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.
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13-05-2017, 19:07   #51
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but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.
So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.
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13-05-2017, 19:14   #52
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but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.
Do you think the interests of a private group of people should come before the public when it comes to the provision of a public transport system for the state?

Or do you think that a public transport system should be run for the benefit of the public first and foremost?
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13-05-2017, 19:48   #53
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but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.
Can you explain that more in the context of these plans? I don't understand how rerouting some buses would affect members of NBRU in a negative way. If there were planned redundancies I could understand, but if anything, these changes may protect the jobs of his members into the future.

I actually agree bus drivers should have an input into any changes. They probably know the city and the bus users better than anyone and could be really valuable in devising plans. But I would see this as a positive rather than a union looking after the interests of their members.
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13-05-2017, 19:53   #54
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So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.
As a driver I personally could not give a hoot about route changes as long as the bus fits, I get breaks on time and there is a place to use a toilet.
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13-05-2017, 20:18   #55
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So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.
ask the union leaders. i'm sure they will tell you if and how the changes would negatively effect the workers should they do, when the changes are known.

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Do you think the interests of a private group of people should come before the public when it comes to the provision of a public transport system for the state?

Or do you think that a public transport system should be run for the benefit of the public first and foremost?
what has that got to do with what i said? you all ready know the answer to the question. the service must benefit the user. the unions still have to look after their members interests.
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13-05-2017, 21:43   #56
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public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.
Nonsense. Everybody wants the bus stop at their door but nobody wants the bus stopping every 300m. It just doesn't work.

It's long overdue that the network be redrawn from scratch for the city that exists today. People will have to accept that to deliver a system that works effectively, we need an actual network that is designed around changing bus (or mode).

At major interchanges bus stations should be built that enable changing bus without stepping I to the rain.
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13-05-2017, 22:24   #57
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I think this news from the NTA sounds very encouraging.

If they were to radically change the Dublin Bus network by aiming to run 7 days a week; they would have to make changes to current arrangements regarding bus services not running on Sundays & Bank Holidays/Public Holidays. I live along Newtownpark Avenue in Blackrock. The local bus service to Blackrock village the 114 from Ticknock in it's many variations has not run a Sunday service to this area for 30 years. It currently serves a total of 2 Luas stops in Sandyford & Stillorgan Luas stop nearby it's own bus stops. I suppose that if the 114 was changed to an entirely new route; it would mean that it will have to include a Sunday service to it's timetable which would bring a lot of good to the purpose of the route.

If major wholesale changes are around for the network from next year; the route could possibly be scrapped to make way for a new route if that was necessary.

The 7B & 7D that run along the Fleurville & Benamore Road in Newtownpark Avenue, even though they are peak service routes, has the same problem in not running on the weekends or the Bank Holidays.

The 111 was recently changed last year to include connections to connect with the DART in Dalkey, Glenageary, Sandycove & Glasthule & Dun Laoghaire Station all the way to the Luas Terminus in Bride's Glen. It also has a link to St Columcille's Hospital in Loughlinstown and still it has no Sunday service since it received it's new route & timetable which is a crying shame. If Dublin Bus & the NTA are serious about including services along major Luas corridors when Luas CC opens; they would need to have routes run daily services along them to address needs from Luas passengers.

Dublin Bus would need to modernize arrangements to include Sunday & Bank Holiday timetables for routes which currently do not run services on these days to cater for connecting services like the DART & Luas. They would also need to address changes to arrangements & current demands for routes that solely run at peak times.

Dublin Bus would also probably need to address what new route changes are necessary to the North Wicklow area including Bray.

Last edited by dublinman1990; 13-05-2017 at 22:49.
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13-05-2017, 22:45   #58
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Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.
Here's part of Jarrett Walker's take on it... They seem to be about more than box ticking...

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We?ve all heard the cynical responses to public outreach:

?They?ve already made their decision. This outreach is just for show.?
?They?re not answering our questions.?
?Why are the meetings way over there, at a time when I can?t get to them??
?I don?t like any of these alternatives!?

Still, great planning can?t move forward without effective engagement with the public and stakeholders. Key players who have major influence over a project must feel involved in a way that respects their influence. Meanwhile, the largest possible public must be engaged in substantive, two-way conversation.

Great outreach isn?t a public meeting where everyone testifies for five minutes and then goes home, or writes online comments and gets nothing back but an automated thank-you. It?s a two-way engagement in which the participants are heard but also educated about the real choices that are before the community, and encouraged to think about different perspectives on the question, not just the one they came in with.

Jarrett Walker has been innovating on public outreach for over a decade, designing distinctive outreach approaches for each problem while pioneering new techniques. His theatre background also makes him attentive to crucial issues of room layout, furnishing, lighting, and so on, which can have profound impacts on the proceedings.

The keys to his approach are to:

Encourage citizens to discuss the issue with each other, not just with officials. Citizens at round tables talking with each other can explore their disagreements in intimate discussion, and come away better understanding the range of views that the agency is hearing. They can also begin probing, on their own, possible paths to consensus.

Engage participants in solving the real problem. Avoid presenting the issue as ?Here is our proposal, what do you think?? Instead, construct interactive exercises in which the participants can work on the problem themselves, testing their own ideas. Jarrett is especially engaged in the development of online tools of this type, as well as meeting techniques.

Present multiple alternatives designed to illustrate the real issue. When doing network designs and similar transit plans, Jarrett often recommends developing multiple alternatives that are carefully sculpted to draw public discussion to a difficult policy issue and build understanding of it.

An example of the last item is the tradeoff between planning for ridership and planning for coverage or social service outcomes, the subject of Chapter 10 of Human Transit and of his Journal of Transport Geography paper, ?Purpose driven public transport: creating a clear conversation about public transport goals.?

Ridership goals (?maximize ridership? or ?minimize subsidy/passenger?) are inevitably in tension with Coverage goals (?respond to social service needs,? or ?ensure that __% of population/jobs are within __m walk of a transit stop?). Few policymakers, and even fewer citizens, have been asked to think clearly about the choice. Jarrett often recommends developing multiple network scenarios ? even if not credibly proposed for implementation ? simply for the purpose of illustrating this tradeoff and building understanding of it.
MORE: http://jarrettwalker.com/consulting-services/outreach/

I don't know much about them until I heard Walker on the Strong Towns podcast recently.
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13-05-2017, 22:56   #59
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What annoys about these public consultations is its usually a vocal majority ruining it for a silent majority. These people who get inolved are usually the kind who think Dublin Bus is perfect because it goes outside their door they dont complain about how things are currently they only complain when they try to change things for the better.
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13-05-2017, 23:00   #60
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Updated timetables on poles at bus stops would be another immediate improvement. My regular route has timetables that are around 5 years out of date, showing the wrong times and the wrong terminus. They have up to date fares so they're recent prints.

No attention to detail at all...
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