Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Thread Closed  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
25-03-2006, 09:23   #61
corktina
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 17,500
i dont think electrification will happen...they are talking about de-electrifying the east coast main line in the UK as the number of electirc trains using it are declining.....the fixed costs are too great for a low density service such as we would have.....
corktina is offline  
Advertisement
25-03-2006, 15:42   #62
A Dub in Glasgo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SE Glasgow, 100ft AMSL
Posts: 13,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by corktina
i dont think electrification will happen...they are talking about de-electrifying the east coast main line in the UK as the number of electirc trains using it are declining.....the fixed costs are too great for a low density service such as we would have.....
I believe Mr.Garnett was using that line as a leverage to get the SRA to upgrade the OHLE between Newcastle and Edinburgh (especially the exposed coastal stretches) which was done on the cheap in the late '80s.

There is absolutely no way that the ECML will be de-electrified.
A Dub in Glasgo is offline  
25-03-2006, 16:55   #63
corktina
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 17,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Dub in Glasgo
I believe Mr.Garnett was using that line as a leverage to get the SRA to upgrade the OHLE between Newcastle and Edinburgh (especially the exposed coastal stretches) which was done on the cheap in the late '80s.

There is absolutely no way that the ECML will be de-electrified.
so, they are upgrading then?
corktina is offline  
27-03-2006, 21:16   #64
probe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,044
The anti-electrification of Irish rail lobby is surely missing the point?

The electrified “bus” known as Luas sucks in about 20 million passengers per annum, many of whom would otherwise (in the absence of Luas) bring their car out with them. Every day. Because electricity provides a quieter, smoother ride with faster acceleration after each stop, shortening journey times.

If public transport is to thrive it has to provide a superior solution for a large number of people (compared with the private car). Private cars have become more luxurious and quieter due to competition in the industry and as people get richer they can afford more “upscale” models.

Irish Rail (and the rest of the CIE group) and the Dept of Transport are still stuck in the 1960s mode of thinking and continue to provide Dept of Social Welfare style “safety net” public transport services which are mainly used by those who can’t afford their own car or who commute on a route where use of the car has become impossible due to traffic congestion or parking problems.

The electrification of transportation platforms will in general at least double the number of people using public transport on the route in question. Taking cars off the road and future proofing the infrastructure of the country. Instead of throwing the money away in Kyoto carbon taxes and leaving the place to rot in an ever increasing traffic jam.

probe
probe is offline  
27-03-2006, 23:30   #65
MarkoP11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,330
Were does it say I'm making an official opinion on behalf of an organisation? Hell I could representing OPEC. Can't have a formal opinion on a non existent project.

Electrification is expensive capital project and only makes sense where traffic demands are such which is mainly suburban or between large population centers and Cork ain't that. I've stood up and will again at public meetings demanding the DART be brought to Drogheda and Kildare there is a big difference between the real world and the dream world where time and money have no meaning. The Irish government have a report telling them to go back to diesel the DART line I'm 100% serious thats nuts but thats the reality

The fastest point to point timing on a internal service in the UK is held by a diesel powered train which is operating on electrified track. Its pretty clear that performance isn't really an issue.

The ride of the train is the same it doesn't matter on the power source, the diesel power car at each end leaves nothing under the floor and thats what all the serious players in the business are looking at doing again as the underfloor solution wasn't passenger or cost friendly

Given current and proposed frequencies Dublin Cork barely even justifies 2 tracks between Limerick Junction and Mallow. IE claim a 30 to 50% market share Dublin Cork with a service every 2 hours so running hourly they could corner the bulk of the market so where to next? The 200 kph running as proposed by IE is not funded they haven't even done the study to find out it is is possible. Its 10+ years away and those of us who pour over the detailed drawings IE put out in public at inquiries will already know that 200 kph is impossible on infrastructure that is being built over the next 5 years on the Cork line as the clearances are not there, this has already been put on the record by myself at a public inquiry long before all this talk began.

As I have pointed out Dublin Belfast is the only line with any real chance of electrification owing to the significant suburban traffic north and south as I understand it an agreement of sorts in place that if Belfast goes electric the gap will be closed, a plan to do this post Good Friday agreement stalled as it couldn't be justified, note Belfast is three times the size of Cork. The main benefits in this are for commuters. Electrification in high density suburban is the only way to go and thats where the performance and efficiency benefits come from the intercity case is very weak unless you can tag it on top of suburban services

The rail network in this country is still a mess and any fanciful thoughts need to be buried until such time as a decent modern network is in place and that will take many years and many billions of euro to fix it and diverting the cash to string up wires from Dublin to Cork on the back of a service frequency of 1 train per hour can't be justified in light of the very poor services that continue elsewhere. Incidentally only 2 of the 4 tracks into Dublin will be electrified and following a redesign Heuston station won't need to be electrified for the interconnector tunnel, so its 166 miles of double track. And by the way the Irish electrification system is rubbish for high speed high horsepower trains its perfect for medium speed commuter

Live in the real world the whole thing hangs on someone coming up with a cheap source of electricity given current fossil fuel generation is typically 40% efficient diesel and electric are fairly level on energy consumed until the day comes where plentiful cheap and reliable electric miracle (and thats looks like a any 2 but not all 3 are possible problem) source arrives the sensible game is to sit and wait. I'm not making this up the UK are doing the same line and they are well aware of the fuel problem and the design of there new HST will be optimised between performance and fuel efficiency it is possible it will offer a dual powered solution

I'd love the whole core network to be electrified but its just won't happen the costs won't deliver sufficent benefit, If there was a few million going spare it would be much better spent on suburban rail in somewhere like Limerick. Dublin Cork would be of the order of several hundred million basically you could fix the rest of the entire network with that kind of funding

Last edited by MarkoP11; 27-03-2006 at 23:40.
MarkoP11 is offline  
Advertisement
28-03-2006, 07:15   #66
corktina
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 17,500
yeah..thats what I said....
corktina is offline  
29-03-2006, 12:08   #67
Metrobest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,041
Elecrification would be a forward-thinking project based on the kind of train travel passengers deserve in one of the world's most successful economies. Diesel-powered trains are associated with 2nd/3rd world countries, or in the case of developed countries, rural branch lines with no passenger demand. Ireland should not have to tolerate diesel trains between Cork and Dublin: such a line would indeed be electrified in continental Europe or a Scandanavian country.

The reason most people use the trains currently is the sub-standard roads linking Cork and Dublin. Flights are often impractical due to the congestion problems leading into Dublin and the airport's northside location.

There is pent-up frustration with the high fares and poor customer service which means that when passengers are given a fair choice, a decent alternative, they will ditch the train.

Fast forward six years and the metro from the airport to Stephen's Green will be up and running. Anyone doing a day's business in Dublin will make the switch to Ryanair or Aer Arann as they will reach Dublin's CBD in 17 minutes from the airport - that's faster than a taxi from Heuston!

When the full-length motorway arrives, anyone who needs to access the M50 or outer business area will take their car.

Bus journeys will become more attractive, too, when the motorway is built.

There is proven passenger demand on the Cork-Dublin and lines and with the ever-increasing commuter belt it's inevitable that there will be a market for more commuter services from places like Portlaoise and Tullamore.

Electrification is needed for so many reasons it's more cost-effective to do it sooner rather than later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoP11
those of us who pour over the detailed drawings IE put out in public
...how mean of you to pour stuff over IE's sketches!
Metrobest is offline  
29-03-2006, 15:40   #68
probe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoP11
Were does it say I'm making an official opinion on behalf of an organisation? Hell I could representing OPEC.
If you represented OPEC you would probably be a bit more farsighted! Many OPEC members such as Dubai are building their economies now for the day when oil “runs out”. If anybody has their finger on the pulse of declining oil production, these people do.

Unfortunately the mirror image of such reality has not yet dawned on many consuming nations. Ireland seems to be one of the furthest away from comprehending the picture with the highest car usage/dependence level on the planet. In no small part due to appalling design of public transport and the appalling design of where people live and work.

You yourself don’t come across to me as having the Middle Eastern accent of an OPEC guy. In fact you sound more like a choirboy singing from the Dept of Transport hymn sheet!

The fact that Ireland is investing in an unintegrated, dysfunctional, diesel rail infrastructure for the 21st century that largely depends on the same scarce and increasingly expensive hydrocarbons seems to escape most people – not least the politicians and the permanent government who are paid to plan for the future, instead of living in the past.

The performance of rail services in Britain (a country that has one of the most neglected, third world style, accident prone, bled to death rail networks in Europe) is hardly relevant to this discussion and one generally wonders if people who look to public transport in that country actually use public transport anywhere else?

You are living in the dark ages. The so called “celtic tiger” gave Ireland the financial wherewithal to move into the 21st century, infrastructurally speaking. An era where the personal automobile is used for perhaps 8,000 to 10,000 km per annum at most, and public transport does the rest of the work. You can’t expect the average person to leave their car at home every day (be it a Toyota or BMW or Merc etc) to board noisy, smelly, overcrowded, slow, unreliable diesel powered vehicles.

The Dublin-Cork railway line serves about 60% of the population of the country in its potential catchment area. I would have thought the main reason why it only attracts about 4 million passengers pa is that the journey is such an endurance test (typically six or more hours involved in a round trip which seldom runs to the rather dozy schedule it is supposed to operate from).

A reliable, efficient, sub-two hour end to end service would make the journey more acceptable and more people would travel on it more often. In addition to electrification the infrastructure requires re-instatement of the permanent way which on the Irish Rail network frequently feels as if the train is about to derail any minute when it gets up “speed”! While not quite as bad as the “potholed” network rail infrastructure in England, it is quickly catching up with their low standards.

A standard European electric train set can run on a range of electrical power from 1,500 volts DC to 25,000 volts AC. I don’t believe that ESB networks will have a problem providing this relatively modest requirement from the supplies to towns along the rail route. If any weaknesses exist in the national grid, they could take a leaf out of the French copybook where high tension general grid cables and new motorways are built next to railway tracks – which is surely good infrastructural planning.


probe
probe is offline  
30-03-2006, 01:01   #69
MarkoP11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,330
The DoT hymn sheet is no electrification beyond the county border of Dublin, they have a report saying to go to diesel on the DART line not joking, the only reason electrification is happening is because you can't run diesel power kit in tunnels with stations

The DoT have never considered electrification on the Cork line and it was not in the terms of reference for the strategic rail review nor can I find it mentioned.

Dublin Cork electrified is a dream for god sake the DTO don't even want Drogheda on the DART system despite the fact 12 coach double decker trains could be required at 6 per hour to shift the demand in the medium term. Thats the mentality of those in power

There is no money

What little cash there is should be spent on bringing the rest of the network to standard first. No shortage of 100 mph capable trains but beyond the Cork line there isn't any track suitable for more than 80 mph, could easily chop 10-20 minutes off all intercity times for a quite modest outlay which would bring significant improvements to a wide range of destinations which are currently poorly served.

Dublin Galway best time is the same as the best time Dublin Cork, its 36 miles less to Galway
Dublin Sligo is 30 miles less than Dublin Cork but it takes 40 minutes longer
Dublin Westport is 1 mile less than Dublin Cork but it takes one full hour longer

See a pattern? It is clear than there is an awful lot of work to do elsewhere first to bring things up to standard. Getting all excited about Cork is wasted while the bulk of routes are still in the dark ages

The major reason why electrification won't happen is cost but also because you would still need diesel to reach Tralee, Limerick, Galway, Westport, Ballina and Waterford. I'm looking forward to seeing what 30 years of engineering advancement will do to the twin power car high speed diesel that is the only reaonable cost effective way forward the UK with all there miles of overhead wire are looking for at least 60 train sets at the moment. The smart money is on a dual power machine which can run on overhead where available, the French have such in service on regional trains already

Get the network sorted out
Electify Dublin Belfast
Then you can look at Cork is and only if suburban services in Cork also go electric

End of the day value for money and maximum benefit for all is the way and in the passengers interests

Last edited by MarkoP11; 30-03-2006 at 01:10.
MarkoP11 is offline  
Advertisement
30-03-2006, 01:05   #70
gjim
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 362
There are few things more irritating than hearing people championing spending vast amounts of public money on projects without any attempt at a justification in terms of the benefits to the public versus the cost.

To be conservative, electrifying Cork to Dublin would cost probably around the two billion mark given that Bray to Howth cost 180 million pounds in the 80s. A sum like this would pay for about 75km of new Luas lines around Dublin (or in other cities) or the inter-connector AND the Navan rail link AND four tracking north of Connelly. Either of these things would facilitate at least 10 or 20 times as many passengers than electrifying Cork to Dublin.

And what exactly would be the benefit? I've travelled on both diesel and electric locomotive "inter-city" trains around Europe and I noticed no difference in passenger comfort. I've no problem admitting that DMUs can be a different story. Someone else has pointed out that electric has no speed advantage. I doubt that all the trains in the country together are responsible for even 1% of Ireland consumption of fossil fuels so converting Cork-Dublin to electric at massive expense will do effectively nothing for the country in this regard.

We are left with the fact that its "forward looking" which means we are back in WRC land in terms of presenting a reasonable argument. This is anorakism at it's worst.
gjim is offline  
30-03-2006, 01:23   #71
MarkoP11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,330
The entire cost of the DART was £114 million at 1984 prices, its £87 million in fact the rest was interest on the loan taken out to pay for it

Fair play gjim we need sense here, we can get a lot of the benefits for a fraction of the money. There is already a plan which has a good cost benefit ratio which will bring times down to 2:15 with stops and T21 seems to cover it
MarkoP11 is offline  
30-03-2006, 09:09   #72
evilhomer
Registered User
 
evilhomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,449
I do agree that the electrification of the Dublin-Cork line is not a priority by any means, there are other much more urgent issues to be addressed (i.e. the DARTification/quad tracking of the rail service to places like Kildare/Navan, more rolling stock, the interconnector (in my opinion should be the highest priority) also a couple of huge park and rides (with free parking, not like the LUAS).

But at some stage in the next 10 years the simple fact is that oil will start to run out and carbon credits will effectivly kill oil and bio-oil as an energy source. If we are going to be building track or upgrading lines we should be future proofing them.
evilhomer is offline  
30-03-2006, 09:37   #73
Red Alert
Hosted Moderator
 
Red Alert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dublin
Posts: 7,319
HMod: LaTeX
Electrifying the dublin-cork line would be a serious waste of money. Almost all electrified lines are left on at all times (like the dublin trams), for reasons of safety and reliability. The rectifiers and transformers have losses, sometimes significant.

Electric trains have no better acceleration than Diesel-Electrics. There's a limit to the size of the motors that can be fitted to the bogies. The DMU's on the other hand (why IE won't purchase DEMU's is another matter) have an automatic (epicyclic) gearbox like a double-decker bus or even worse have a horrid Hydraulic transmission like the 29000's. With a small engine like on a DMU you need big reduction ratios to start off with which is what gives rise to their poor acceleration.

I agree the 201's are past it - why can't the 071's be used instead? They're actually reliable because they haven't been butchered by the incompetent management of IE who think that running head-end power for the enterprise is ok. If I went outside to the bus terminus and stuck a brick on the accelerator of a bus for a day would you say it would be ok? I certainly don't think we should waste yet more money on the CAF power cars as we've now got locomotive-overload in this country.

Actually does anyone know if the CAF train to cork has a generator van like the Mark 3's or are they pulling the power from the loco like the enterprise (and destroying it in the process)?
Red Alert is offline  
30-03-2006, 10:15   #74
murphaph
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berlin
Posts: 17,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Alert
Actually does anyone know if the CAF train to cork has a generator van like the Mark 3's or are they pulling the power from the loco like the enterprise (and destroying it in the process)?
No it has a generator in the driving trailer.
murphaph is offline  
30-03-2006, 13:41   #75
SeanW
Registered User
 
SeanW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Longford/Dublin
Posts: 6,824
I agree that electrification of the lines to Cork and Limerick will be desirable - eventually. In terms of environmentalism, Biodiesel is a much better answer for Irish Rail. Carbon credits shouldn't kill that, and if they do the whole scheme needs a rework.

And as for diesel being "unreliable and 3rd world" huh? For low spec multiple units this is absolutely 100% true, like the 29000 versus the DART. For locomotive hauled trains, and high spec DMUs (hopefully), Metrobest et. al. couldn't be further off the mark.

Take Sligo. Up until last year, we had Mark 2d carraiges, which were old but reasonably nice. They certainly beat the bejesus out of a 29K.

But it wouldn't have mattered to passengers comfort or reliability one bit if the loco at the head was running electric or diesel (071 class). If we'd had the 201 that might have been better as these locos are rather quiet.

I can understand (sort of) Metrobest's liking of electricity. But we've got to be realistic.
SeanW is offline  
Thread Closed

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search