Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Thread Closed  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
24-03-2006, 19:46   #46
murphaph
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berlin
Posts: 17,412
There's already interconnection with the UK mainland via Northern Ireland.

Link

I'd say we might see more links put across to Scotland in the future. It's interesting that the interconnector to Scotland is DC.
murphaph is online now  
Advertisement
24-03-2006, 20:28   #47
SeanW
Registered User
 
SeanW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Longford/Dublin
Posts: 6,825
(as a semi-environmentalist I don't like to say this) but wind farms may not be the answer long term. Remeber if Global Warming does kill the Gulf Stream and North Atlantic drift, it's likely a major source of winds will die with it. So wind farms near the Altantic may not produce as much power as we expect in say 30 years time.
SeanW is offline  
24-03-2006, 21:21   #48
probe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by dowlingm
murphaph

all true.

As for electricity interconnection, it seems like a long way to run a cable. The further you go the more likely a break could happen. Interconnecting with UK seems more feasible as I assume they have an onward connector with France via Channel Tunnel.
Britain has a growing energy deficit. The coal industry is dead. Most of the new generation capacity is based on North Sea gas which is a very wasteful in terms of energy conversion and is almost spent anyway. The less “sucked dry” Norwegian gas fields Britain now depends on have under a decade to run. Converting gas into electricity is not CO2 free – ie British sourced electricity has a Kyoto carbon price on top – French electricity has almost zero carbon tax (90%) so bringing it to Ireland can contribute to reducing our CO2 levels to below the ceiling at which penalty taxes are payable.

Britain’s nuclear industry is probably second to Russia in terms of risk. The plant is antiquated and way past its planned useful life. France has huge surpluses of electrical energy, the cheapest electricity in Europe and a well managed industry. Britain is in a state of energy panic in 2006 with shortages driving up prices by 30% or so. Britain has tiny electricity sharing capacity with France.

The Norway Netherlands interconnector is 580 km long. It operates at 450 kV DC which offers the lowest energy transmission loss over long distances. Cost €550 million. Cork to Brittany is only 470km. As stated previously most if not all the cost of FR-IRL could be covered by Kyoto carbon tax saving over time. At least two interconnectors would be required for security of supply.

Ireland should be a net green energy exporter – it has far more potential per km2 than anywhere else in Europe. The facilities it uses to transport these exports can act as a backup in the reverse direction during periods of low wind activity. The French grid is the most interconnected with the rest of Europe. The British grid is the least interconnected, and anyway the capacity is fully used importing power from guess where?

probe
probe is offline  
24-03-2006, 21:40   #49
evilhomer
Registered User
 
evilhomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoP11
Energy usage is roughly the same under current conditions
It costs a lot more to build and run an electric railway
The basic result is unless you don't already have an electrified line you stay diesel until the costs turn in favour
Cost of oil purchase will double if not triple in the next 5 years (and that is assuming OPEC are not lying about the amount of oil they have left).

The costs will turn in favour of Electric fairly rapidly with fuel costs of Diesel (even bio-diesel) to rocket due to kyoto carbon credits and lack of supply of fossil fuels.

If we wait until the costs start to tip it will be too late, because once we reach peak oil it will be too expensive to build the network (with all the equipment we need to build it running in Diesel!)

another source

We have to cop on in this country and not wait until things hit us in the face!
We should be ahead of the curve for once.
evilhomer is offline  
24-03-2006, 21:40   #50
murphaph
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berlin
Posts: 17,412
Britain is in the sh!t with energy production alright but their national grid is pretty fine, so why not part fund an additional interconnector to Scotland or Wales and Dover-Calais too. Harness the existing british national grid. The best bit is that 3 nations and the EU would help pay for it all.

I think that this would suffice if we proceed with clever renewable generation here. We still have vast quantities of untapped hydro/tidal possibilities which can provide power in the absence of wind. We have done virtually nothing to promote private domestic generation in streams /small rivers running by people's property and small wind turbiness. You can sell this energy back to the grid with the right equipment. This equipment should be VAT free at least and ideally attract interest relief on a loan taken out to purchase it.

There's a lot more we could be doing. We just this week saw sugar beet get the red card when we know it can be processed into bio-ethanol. This was an ideal opportunity to reduce our exposure to foreign fossil fuel, but not for this government.
murphaph is online now  
Advertisement
24-03-2006, 22:20   #51
SeanW
Registered User
 
SeanW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Longford/Dublin
Posts: 6,825
We're kinda going off-topic here.

Bio-diesel will become an answer but Irish Rail won't be able to use B100 in everything, probably just the 1994 201s (provided they're out of warranty) and some of the older DMUs. And even then, they won't be able to use B100 year round as it starts to gel at about 3 or 4 degrees without additives, the most common being kerosene, and lots of it. What's more, at today's rate of development in the Irish bio-fuels sector (nil) there probably won't be any bio-diesel capacity for them anyway.

The price of oil will skyrocket - eventally it already has gone up sharply in the last decade.

AFAIK high speed trains use a lot more energy than standard speed/commuter trains. Also, for once Metrobest got it right - an electric train is usually more comfortable than a diesel, unless of course the diesel (MU) is overspec'ed like crazy with soundproofing to dampen boatloads of integrated diesel engine noise and vibration.

Last edited by SeanW; 24-03-2006 at 22:27.
SeanW is offline  
24-03-2006, 22:38   #52
probe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphaph
Britain is in the sh!t with energy production alright but their national grid is pretty fine, so why not part fund an additional interconnector to Scotland or Wales and Dover-Calais too. Harness the existing british national grid. The best bit is that 3 nations and the EU would help pay for it all.

I think that this would suffice if we proceed with clever renewable generation here. We still have vast quantities of untapped hydro/tidal possibilities which can provide power in the absence of wind. We have done virtually nothing to promote private domestic generation in streams /small rivers running by people's property and small wind turbiness. You can sell this energy back to the grid with the right equipment. This equipment should be VAT free at least and ideally attract interest relief on a loan taken out to purchase it.

There's a lot more we could be doing. We just this week saw sugar beet get the red card when we know it can be processed into bio-ethanol. This was an ideal opportunity to reduce our exposure to foreign fossil fuel, but not for this government.

Why do you want to put yourself at the end of the line? The number one issue is surely security of supply for IRL when the wind isn’t blowing. You must have diversity of supply and backups.

Britain is heading for almost certain wide scale energy blackouts over the next decade or so, because the raw material they are using for electricity generation is rapidly running out and they have poor (understatement) relationships with the remaining suppliers, and no spare capacity to import. When the crunch comes do you really think that British grid managers are going to press a button to send French electricity to Ireland while causing a blackout in London or Lancashire? In addition with Britain you have the international “terrorism” risk.

The concept is akin to allowing Aer Lingus to fall into BA’s hands, whereupon most Aer Lingus routes would be shut down as it feeds everyone into the creaking-at-the-seams Heathrow Airport adding several hours, endless agro and waste of energy to everybody’s every journey.

We do have endless untapped renewable sources in Ireland. If you look at the Pyrenees, they have installed hundreds of small hydro-electric stations which are fed by pipes laid down the mountain-side. Luxembourg is one of the biggest electricity consumers per capita in the world due in part to the presence of the aluminium industry. It is the size of a small Irish county (2587 km2) yet it manages to generate over 70% of its electricity needs from hydro.

The sugar beet issue has been grossly mismanaged by Ireland and the EU. It is one of the biggest energy crops and they should have created a managed transition from sugar to energy use so that there would be no interruption for the producer. Cars that run on 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol are readily available from European manufacturers. Gross incompetence and cluelessness on their part!

probe

Last edited by probe; 24-03-2006 at 22:58.
probe is offline  
24-03-2006, 22:47   #53
probe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanW
We're kinda going off-topic here.

Bio-diesel will become an answer but Irish Rail won't be able to use B100 in everything, probably just the 1994 201s (provided they're out of warranty) and some of the older DMUs. And even then, they won't be able to use B100 year round as it starts to gel at about 3 or 4 degrees without additives, the most common being kerosene, and lots of it. What's more, at today's rate of development in the Irish bio-fuels sector (nil) there probably won't be any bio-diesel capacity for them anyway.

The price of oil will skyrocket - eventally it already has gone up sharply in the last decade.

AFAIK high speed trains use a lot more energy than standard speed/commuter trains. Also, for once Metrobest got it right - an electric train is usually more comfortable than a diesel, unless of course the diesel (MU) is overspec'ed like crazy with soundproofing to dampen boatloads of integrated diesel engine noise and vibration.

Any type of diesel train (bio or mineral) is noisy and polluting. They often keep the engine running while they are in the station – making the place stink! They have slow acceleration and the general travel experience is poor compared with electric. They are a third world solution to 21st century travel.

The process of creation of bio diesel creates CO2 and other chemical pollutants which are not created by wind energy running an electric train.

probe
probe is offline  
24-03-2006, 22:55   #54
probe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanW
(as a semi-environmentalist I don't like to say this) but wind farms may not be the answer long term. Remeber if Global Warming does kill the Gulf Stream and North Atlantic drift, it's likely a major source of winds will die with it. So wind farms near the Altantic may not produce as much power as we expect in say 30 years time.
Denmark has lots of experience with wind energy and they are heading for 30% of their electricity to come from wind sources. They are very far from the gulf stream influence today. Ditto for Spain which is on course to install 20 Gw wind capacity (almost five times Ireland's peak el. energy demand).

If the gulf stream stops, it will freeze the balls off you and you will be bloody glad to see wind turbines anywhere you come across them!

probe
probe is offline  
Advertisement
24-03-2006, 23:18   #55
evilhomer
Registered User
 
evilhomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by probe
If the gulf stream stops, it will freeze the balls off you
Is that the technical term for that?
evilhomer is offline  
25-03-2006, 00:58   #56
murphaph
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berlin
Posts: 17,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by probe
Why do you want to put yourself at the end of the line? The number one issue is surely security of supply for IRL when the wind isn’t blowing. You must have diversity of supply and backups.

Britain is heading for almost certain wide scale energy blackouts over the next decade or so, because the raw material they are using for electricity generation is rapidly running out and they have poor (understatement) relationships with the remaining suppliers, and no spare capacity to import. When the crunch comes do you really think that British grid managers are going to press a button to send French electricity to Ireland while causing a blackout in London or Lancashire? In addition with Britain you have the international “terrorism” risk
I can't realy say I'd agree with most of that. If an interconnector(s) is funded with irish and EU money, any attempt to divert electricity Ieland has purchased from France (these things are all agreed in tenders to begin with) would be simple theft as recently witnessed in he Ukraine with EU bound gas from Russia. The EU would not look favourably on a british government allowing energy theft. It is the sort of scenario that is almost doomsday and we'll probably have much worse things to worry about if it ever came to the UK stealing our energy. I might also point out that France is virtually self sufficient in energy and Britain is far from it, so if we do eventually harness all that hydro, we cannot sell it to the brits through an interconnector to France without another interconnector to Britain anyway. We have an island the size of England with a fraction of the population and way more rainfall, we should be able to sell them a lot of energy in the future (assuming a government eventually realises we MUST start harnessing all that water and wind).
murphaph is online now  
25-03-2006, 05:33   #57
dowlingm
Registered User
 
dowlingm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 5,063
One way of storing wind energy is artificial reservoirs supplied by pumps at low-demand times, releasing the water to drive turbines at peak times - ESB does it at Turlough Hill.
dowlingm is offline  
25-03-2006, 07:03   #58
jlang
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,327
They're unlikely to pay for or get planning for another Turlough Hill.
jlang is offline  
25-03-2006, 08:02   #59
JackieChan
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,803
This thread has gone way off on a tangent, remember its a post about a high speed rail line and not Britains energy crisis

Its interesting that some curves are going to be corrected.
The most severe I know is the curve at the Curragh but they're hardly going to straighten the line at this point.Trains slow to around 70 for this so I don't think it would make sense to spend money on building a new alignment.

It would be good if they could do something about Portarlington as there is a good run here where the trains have to slow down.

What other curves do you think need correcting?
JackieChan is offline  
25-03-2006, 09:13   #60
Metrobest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,041
I think it would be shortsighted to oppose electification of the existing intercity lines as there are longer-term benefits to be gained. The people who oppose electrifying Dublin-Cork are the same who don't want the Dublin metro to be built, or at least did their best to stall the project.

Most people would accept that electric trains provide an enhanced passenger experience and that is part of the vision of a better train service in Ireland, along with the disbandment of CIE.

Now, the government has shown some degree of vision in building motorways on the national routes. These are strategic pieces of national infrastructure. While existing traffic volumes would not justify motorway on sections of these routes, the government has taken the longer-term decision that they will be needed in the future. The same mentality should influence a decision over the electrification of Dublin-Cork.

As for Philip's point about nuclear engergy, I think he is right. A lot of the focus in Ireland is on one or two isolated examples of where nuclear power has not worked. We forget that most developed countries in Europe have nuclear and it works brilliantly for them. Of course, this is all academic. There will never be nuclear in Ireland. If projects like the M3 can cause such controversy, how would a nuclear power plant ever get built?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanW
for once Metrobest got it right.
A backhanded compliment if ever I heard one!
Metrobest is offline  
Thread Closed

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search