RTE considering future of Lyric FM

Ursus Horribilis · 14-09-2019 3:17pm

You seriously think these hypothetical Lyric FM members would leave their homes and meet up as a club?

Pa ElGrande · 14-09-2019 5:30pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

You seriously think these hypothetical Lyric FM members would leave their homes and meet up as a club?

If they expect people to continue subsidising their entertainment they are in for disappointment, either they get together and club their resources together or Lyric FM dies from lack of support or they can move on to Classic FM, podcasts or youtube. Admittedly getting people to buy into something that had been amortised within the TV tax would be challenge but if they want to make a break from RTE and improve the product what options do they have? Pay another €20 on the licence and keep RTE going another day longer until they come back to the trough for more.

Ursus Horribilis · 14-09-2019 5:52pm

They'll move on rather than put their hands in their pockets and form a club. You might get people who are younger to put their hands in their pockets and save something but that's not going to happen with that generation.

A station like Lyric FM was never going to turn a profit anyway. It's a niche channel that won't ever attract much advertising. The same can be said (I assume) for RNaG.

Should you be applying the same logic to 2FM, by the way? It's a loss-making radio station which broadcasts light entertainment. Its listeners can tune into YouTube or Today FM or Internet Radio too.

Pa ElGrande · 14-09-2019 6:11pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Should you be applying the same logic to 2FM, by the way? It's a loss-making radio station which broadcasts light entertainment. Its listeners can tune into YouTube or Today FM or Internet Radio too.

2FM was formed in response to a gap filled by the pirates and struggled to get significant audience traction until after the late 80s pirate close down, it then came to life during the 90s and more or less faded out after that decade.
It would not be just 2FM apply the club model to the entire RTE organisation along the model proposed for the BBC by Professor Sir Alan Peacock

Peacock’s proposals have implications for the BBC. It would no longer be special in terms of its role in public service broad-casting. It could still be special as an institution, however. It could obtain its income from a mix of commercial services, subscription and advertising. Peacock believes, however, that if the BBC were made fully commercial it would, in fact, be a serious problem to the competition authorities because of its market power. He suggests that the BBC could be a private, non-profit making body, rather like the National Trust, with full involvement of subscribers in choosing those who governed the corporation.

source

Switching it to a non-profit subscriber model takes it out of both political and commercial straitjackets that restrict its operation at present and would be the necessary change in the present moribund Irish broadcasting industry in the face of multinational competition.

end of the road · 14-09-2019 6:28pm

coylemj wrote: »

One of the issues with the orchestras is that anything that moves is controlled by the trades unions

anything and everything that moves is absolutely not controled by the trade unions.

coylemj wrote: »

so there will be minimal co-operation forthcoming to any proposal to shrink them or change work practices to reduce the wages bill.

well it is hardly surprising that people might get their union to try to protect their terms and conditions as much as is possible, something a union can't actually guarantee can be achieved.

end of the road · 14-09-2019 6:38pm

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Both Lyric and 2FM should be put up for sale on the open market as having the best commercial potential under new management.

lyric has no commercial potential under any management. it is not commercially viable full stop, but does provide a worth while public service.
2fm provides nothing the others don't, and there are already enough privately and commercially operated, funded and run, pop music radio stations which aren't exactly setting the world on fire.
the use of the transmission networks would have some commercial potential but given the 2 national commercial stations that exist already aren't exactly fantastic, i'm not seeing an argument for selling off or even leasing those networks to private interests, when rte have a number of services they could swap 2fm for, and when lyric actually does provide something of worth in terms of listener choice.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Maybe Classic FM is the UK would be interested in Lyric FM if offered if only to avail of the transmission network.

classic fm serves a massive population, around 70000000, and is part of a very large and profitable group.
such a service just wouldn't be commercially viable here and if the owners were interested in the transmission network of lyric fm, it would be to provide one of their pop music stations, not classic fm or similar.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The Orchestras can be moved to the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht where they can be bought under the auspices of the national concert hall and hired out to various parties (not just RTE) when needed.

fine, if it means they remain publically funded.

end of the road · 14-09-2019 6:58pm

thejuggler wrote: »

Should be a wider discussion about trimming the fat at RTÉ. There is an argument for making lyric and r na g streaming services only to save cost of fm transmission. Also RTÉ gold and 2fm should swap networks. Perhaps r na g could be moved to LW 252 and taken off fm?
Should all of the digital channels survive?
The orchestras should be the first to go.
As for tv RTÉ should be slimmed down and all imported material available elsewhere removed. If that means reduced broadcast hours so be it.
Why broadcast EastEnders when most viewers can and do watch it without adverts on bbc1?
Unsure about fair city and ros na run. Could money be saved by not making these ‘dramas’?
RTÉ should be about news, current affairs kids tv and community type stuff like nationwide.

actually, there is no argument for making lyric and rnag streaming services.
rnag is the irish language radio station, and while it is a minority that speak the language, it is our national language, and providing such content on a platform that has universal access, is exactly what public service broadcasting is .
swapping 2fm for one of the digital channels which would also provide something unique certainly has merrit, as does removing the imported programming from rte tv, unless it is a case that they are able to secure the rights to broadcast before anywhere else.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Here is an idea, why not take Lyric FM private and run it as a club like the GAA? It's got about 200,000 listeners in the Republic of Ireland, if they become members of the Lyric FM club they can collectively have a say in ho the station is run and start to drive innovation. Would that not be real "public service" broadcasting?

Let say a €50 annual membership fee x 200,000 members would be €10 million per annum. Or you could do it for €20 (€4 million) membership fee + sponsorship which would cover its costs. The members get to approve the salaries and contribute to the content and drive the station. This allows for sponsorship and cultural events and classical or even Irish traditional music training.

Those of you who value Lyric FM and want to save it should be looking to separate it from RTE which is an organisation that has spread its resources much too thin and in the process wastes its resources and in the process outputs a lot of filler to occupy its bandwidth allocation that nobody values. The RTE organisation needs to undergo a period of financial examinership, there is no getting around that.

it wouldn't be real public service broadcasting no .
it would simply be another unviable suggestion being made because someone doesn't believe such a service should be publically funded because, and want any form of privatization of it in any form, regardless of the fact it wouldn't be viable.

Pa ElGrande · 14-09-2019 7:09pm

end of the road wrote: »

lyric has no commercial potential under any management. it is not commercially viable full stop, but does provide a worth while public service.
. . . . . lyric actually does provide something of worth in terms of listener choice.

The internet has changed to game in terms of listener choice and once the "national broadband" rollout is complete lets say by December 31 2029, won't Lyric be in a much worse position as a much more costly service and a limited fanbase? For the under 40s today internet services are widely used, I don't see this changing, so Lyric will fade into obscurity without a large engaged audience who provide direct support.

The other problem we have is the term "public service broadcasting", this is a moving target and as far as I can see it's meaning has been corrupted in the context of the RTE organisation to mean one who is served by the public. You can argue the rural post offices provided a public service, however they are still being shut down. In the same manner Lyric will eventually be closed.

The music promoted by Lyric probably originates with foreign cultures (I don't listen so you can correct me if I'm wrong). It has much less cultural relevance than say RnaG and as pointed out that market is well served, why do we need to promote the traditions of a foreign culture?

Pa ElGrande · 14-09-2019 7:30pm

end of the road wrote: »

it wouldn't be real public service broadcasting no .
it would simply be another unviable suggestion being made because someone doesn't believe such a service should be publically funded because, and want any form of privatization of it in any form, regardless of the fact it wouldn't be viable.

You are going to have to clearly define the term "public service broadcasting" as something other than not being held accountable for the expenditure of a hypothecated tax. In the context of the RTE organisation it has proven unable to manage its resources or commercial activity in a market that is moving away from them. The resistance to the existing tax or its extension can only grow if it fails to reform, remember it is a non-essential service, it can be shut down now and people will move on.

The people who stock the shelves at your local supermarket are providing an essential public service compared with RTE. If one store closes it is not the end of the world or the consumer who can switch to another vendor. That is the position RTE finds itself so it needs to define its future role very carefully as the same old crap is not going to wash in the face of a financial examiner or an angry public.

end of the road · 14-09-2019 7:48pm

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The internet has changed to game in terms of listener choice and once the "national broadband" rollout is complete lets say by December 31 2029, won't Lyric be in a much worse position as a much more costly service and a limited fanbase? For the under 40s today internet services are widely used, I don't see this changing, so Lyric will fade into obscurity without a large engaged audience who provide direct support.

internet services may be widely used by younger audiences but it is mostly at home rather then on the move. the amount listening to internet radio on the move is probably quite small, and even if the NBP goes ahead, it might not change massively, as fm and platforms such as dab, in the event it ever does get going, are the most portable platforms.
so it is a case of wait and see.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The other problem we have is the term "public service broadcasting", this is a moving target and as far as I can see it's meaning has been corrupted in the context of the RTE organisation to mean one who is served by the public. You can argue the rural post offices provided a public service, however they are still being shut down. In the same manner Lyric will eventually be closed.

except there is nothing to say that lyric will be closed.
the term public service broadcasting hasn't been corrupted by rte, this is just hyperbole.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The music promoted by Lyric probably originates with foreign cultures (I don't listen so you can correct me if I'm wrong). It has much less cultural relevance than say RnaG and as pointed out that market is well served, why do we need to promote the traditions of a foreign culture?

what market is well served? the only market rte has that is well served is that of 2fm, however there are other services belonging to rte that can take that transmission network.
the music played on lyric probably does come from many different places and may represent many different cultures but i'm not seeing how that is relevant. what matters is that the service is being provided and people enjoy it.

irish horse · 14-09-2019 7:59pm

I like the morning show and turn it on every morning. It's a relaxing start to the day.

end of the road · 14-09-2019 8:07pm

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

You are going to have to clearly define the term "public service broadcasting" as something other than not being held accountable for the expenditure of a hypothecated tax. In the context of the RTE organisation it has proven unable to manage its resources or commercial activity in a market that is moving away from them. The resistance to the existing tax or its extension can only grow if it fails to reform, remember it is a non-essential service, it can be shut down now and people will move on.

it isn't a non-essential service. the current affairs output it does provide would in no way be provided in any meaningful term by others. those who do use it won't simply move on, or if they do, it won't be to private media.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The people who stock the shelves at your local supermarket are providing an essential public service compared with RTE.

this is not the case.
yes people stocking shelves provide a service but as soon as automation becomes main stream, those people will unfortunately be the first out the door. current affairs programming and other minority programming will still need to be provided however.

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

If one store closes it is not the end of the world or the consumer who can switch to another vendor. That is the position RTE finds itself so it needs to define its future role very carefully as the same old crap is not going to wash in the face of a financial examiner or an angry public.

yes there may be other stores if one store closes, depending on your area. however, current affairs and minority programming won't be provided by others, at least not to anything near the standard of rte's current affairs output.
so your comparison between rte being closed and a store closing doesn't work.
a few people on a website complaining does not an angry public make.

thejuggler · 14-09-2019 8:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

actually, there is no argument for making lyric and rnag streaming services.
rnag is the irish language radio station, and while it is a minority that speak the language, it is our national language, and providing such content on a platform that has universal access, is exactly what public service broadcasting is .
.

I think there is as these are minority special interest services serving a minority audience. In the interest of value for money there is an argument for serving this audience using the most cost effective method available.
I don't know the operating costs of the two national fm networks with their many low power relays. (I can pick up 4 of these in my current location). It's worth identifying if this audience could be reached using a single frequency transmission service such as long wave 252 or even the old medium wave network on 567KHz.

From memory back in the 80's radio na gaeltachta had medium wave (or perhaps fm transmitters) in the gaeltacht regions they served e.g. in Casla in Connemara. Perhaps this could be examined or alternatively a return to frequency sharing for lyric and r na g

end of the road · 14-09-2019 8:53pm

thejuggler wrote: »

I think there is as these are minority special interest services serving a minority audience. In the interest of value for money there is an argument for serving this audience using the most cost effective method available.
I don't know the operating costs of the two national fm networks with their many low power relays. (I can pick up 4 of these in my current location). It's worth identifying if this audience could be reached using a single frequency transmission service such as long wave 252 or even the old medium wave network on 567KHz.

From memory back in the 80's radio na gaeltachta had medium wave (or perhaps fm transmitters) in the gaeltacht regions they served e.g. in Casla in Connemara. Perhaps this could be examined or alternatively a return to frequency sharing for lyric and r na g

minority audiences are what rte is there to serve.
streaming is not 100% or even 90% universal and portable unlike fm, so therefore there isn't an argument available to make both RNAG and lyric streaming only services as you are taking those services away from people who won't be in a position to listen to them online.
567 sadly won't be coming back for any rte service. or likely any service at all. i believe the sites it used are no longer viable to use.
sharing the services mean people lose out. that is why both fm3 and rnag were split in the first place.

14-09-2019 9:33pm

Here's an interesting statistic. All of RTE's top- ten-paid "stars" have regular radio programmes (when not on holidays). None work for RnaG, although George Hamilton plays music on Lyric.

If you halved these salaries, RTÉ Radio services would get he equivalent of an 8.7% saving in public (licence fee) expenditure for radio programming.

Whereas cutting Lyric FM not only means job losses, and the loss of important cultural broadcasting - you know, the actual job of a public service broadcaster - , it would only reflect a 4.3% increase in public funding -- that's the amount of the licence fee that goes to Lyric.

There is a simpler argument however, that if you get rid of Lyric, you get an additional 6million euro extra for radio services, because that's the licence + commercial cost to RTE Radio. That assumes, however, that advertisers will flock to other RTÉ radio stations. And if you want to follow that line, it's more logical to get rid of 2FM which has total operating costs of 11.5 million.

Above figures from the 2018 annual report.

As an interesting aside, it costs 800 euro per hour to run Lyric FM. It costs 1,300 euro per hour to run 2FM, and RTE Radio 1 costs a fairly astonishing 4,000 euro per transmission hour.

Infoanon · 14-09-2019 9:58pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Here's an interesting statistic. All of RTE's top- ten-paid "stars" have regular radio programmes (when not on holidays). None work for RnaG, although George Hamilton plays music on Lyric.

If you halved these salaries, RTÉ Radio services would get he equivalent of an 8.7% saving in public (licence fee) expenditure for radio programming.

Whereas cutting Lyric FM not only means job losses, and the loss of a vital resource for the Irish language in contemporary life, it would only reflect a 4.3% increase in public funding -- that's the amount of the licence fee that goes to Lyric.

There is a simpler argument however, that if you get rid of Lyric, you get an additional 6million euro extra for radio services, because that's the licence + commercial cost to RTE Radio. That assumes, however, that advertisers will flock to other RTÉ radio stations. And if you want to follow that line, it's more logical to get rid of 2FM which has total operating costs of 11.5 million.

Above figures from the 2018 annual report.

As an interesting aside, it costs 800 euro per hour to run Lyric FM. It costs 1,300 euro per hour to run 2FM, and RTE Radio 1 costs a fairly astonishing 4,000 euro per transmission hour.

Firstly the old chestnut of RTE pays it's stars too much - your comparing apples and pears - the top stars work on radio and TV.
Not to sure how Lyric would be a loss of a vital resource for the Irish language ??
While any comparison of costs ,albeit in the annual report, do not reflect the transfer costings that go on within RTE.

Radio 1 at 4000 per hour would be relatively cheap - talk / news radio is very expensive.

Other posters have mentioned transmis sion costs - AM is very expensive ,hosting 4 (5 in many cases ) FM transmissions gives economy of scale - putting all services on Dab would also give significant savings however listeners hip figures would not be sustainable.

Lyric is going no where - privatisation of 2FM comes up every so often but who would want it given the younger audience don't listen to radio .

Doblin · 14-09-2019 10:27pm

Infoanon wrote: »

privatisation of 2FM comes up every so often but who would want it given the younger audience don't listen to radio .

What needs to happen is 2fm as an entity would cease to exist and the Bai would put an new national licence for 90-92 FM out to tender

limnam · 14-09-2019 10:29pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Asking people to shell out €50 a year for Lyric FM is a big ask.

Pretty much the only thing I get for my license fee is Lyric.

Paying a license fee and 50 quid a year for Lyric is an outrageous ask

14-09-2019 11:30pm

Infoanon wrote: »

Firstly the old chestnut of RTE pays it's stars too much - your comparing apples and pears - the top stars work on radio and TV.

No, as I mentioned, many of them do. With the exception of George Hamilton, all of them broadcast most of their time on radio (when you consider that Miriam O'Callaghan hosts about 80 hours of Today SOR every Summer at this stage, on top of her regular programme).

But that's beside the point. There is no other broadcast-media organisation that could afford to pay the top-10 average of RTÉ more than once (especially after Pat Kenny's move to NT failed to meet expectations: today Seán O'Rourke has twice Kenny's figures, and The News At One, which continued to grow listeners after he (another top-10 earner back then also) was replaced by the lesser paid Áine Lalor. As such, RTÉ actually made a profit from losing Pat Kenny.

Maybe they should try the same with Tubridy.

RTE's competitive advantage, because of its resources and status, is so great that it doesn't need to add excessive salaries to the mix. It isn't justified.

It is so uncompetitive that Seán O'Rourke didn't even negotiate his almost 300k salary. And he's an employee, who will accrue an enormous pre-1989 defined benefit pension. He said "I'll take whatever they offer" and they offered him that!

RTÉ has to compete with online radio - so why don't they compete for broadcasters? Clearly, Irish people aren't bothered by British accents on radio or TV, so why aren't they poaching UK or even US broadcasters on smaller salaries who reach bigger audiences?

BBC journalist Laura Kuenssberg, political editor of the BBC News, known by tens of millions of viewers in the UK and around the world, earns about 110k less than Joe Duffy (in euro denomination). And is RTE worried that the BBC will poach Duffy?

Come off it. It isn't a myth.

Not to sure how Lyric would be a loss of a vital resource for the Irish language when...

That was part of another sentence that accidentally wasn't deleted. I was going to make a point about making RnaG streaming only, but decided it was a tangent.

end of the road · 15-09-2019 12:42am

Doblin wrote: »

What needs to happen is 2fm as an entity would cease to exist and the Bai would put an new national licence for 90-92 FM out to tender

that would be a complete waste of time given that we would just end up with another pop music station in the end anyway.
switching 2fm with one of the digital services is the only viable option as it would actually add a new service.

Jim Comic · 15-09-2019 10:47am

superb doc from lyric a few weeks ago....

https://soundcloud.com/the-lyric-feature/no-journeys-end-20-june

The Rape of Lucretia · 15-09-2019 11:25am

Its just a pointless waste now, and may as well be given the bullet. In reality, it ceased to exist after the whole Martyfication rejig that destroyed it as a classical music station 10 or so years ago. The only case for retaining funding for it would be if that damage were undone and it reoriented back to its original purpose and programming. But there is unlikely anyone in command in RTE with the necessary cultural vision to see that.

Expunge · 15-09-2019 1:59pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its just a pointless waste now, and may as well be given the bullet. In reality, it ceased to exist after the whole Martyfication rejig that destroyed it as a classical music station 10 or so years ago. The only case for retaining funding for it would be if that damage were undone and it reoriented back to its original purpose and programming. But there is unlikely anyone in command in RTE with the necessary cultural vision to see that.

And that's it, really. Lyric has neither the focus of Classic FM nor the credibility of Radio 3. Just because some people think John Kelly's music is cool or Marty is gas is not a reason to retain it.
A reboot or closure should be the only options.
What's more likely is nothing will happen and it'll be left trundle on in MOR radio hell till the next crisis in another 24 months.

Infoanon · 15-09-2019 2:44pm

First it was Closing Lyric, now the headings are:
RTE to close Cork Studios
RTE to sell lands at Montrose

Spot a trend yet ?.

On the bigger issue:
If you want public service broadcasting - RnaG, Lyric etc then you have to pay more it,
If you don't then say goodbye to RnaG etc

Sam Smyth raised a good point on the Marian show - does RTE have any plan 10 year? Even 5 year ?

Harry Palmr · 15-09-2019 2:51pm

Infoanon wrote: »

First it was Closing Lyric, now the headings are:
RTE to close Cork Studios
RTE to sell lands at Montrose

Spot a trend yet ?.

On the bigger issue:
If you want public service broadcasting - RnaG, Lyric etc then you have to pay more it,
If you don't then say goodbye to RnaG etc

Sam Smyth raised a good point on the Marian show - does RTE have any plan 10 year? Even 5 year ?

Hard to have a plan on shifting sands to be fair! In 10 years time RTE may well not exist at all.

Expunge · 15-09-2019 3:14pm

Infoanon wrote: »

First it was Closing Lyric, now the headings are:
RTE to close Cork Studios
RTE to sell lands at Montrose

Spot a trend yet ?.

On the bigger issue:
If you want public service broadcasting - RnaG, Lyric etc then you have to pay more it,
If you don't then say goodbye to RnaG etc

Sam Smyth raised a good point on the Marian show - does RTE have any plan 10 year? Even 5 year ?

There'll be no saying goodbye to RnaG, even if the rest of RTE were to fail. That's a sacred cow with something like 65 full time staff in it.

The extent of the RTE plan was to have the Licence Fee or it's equivalent increased and index linked. That's it. There seems to be no plan B.

ford fiesta · 15-09-2019 4:20pm

Salary costs for Lyric must be huge....How much exactly??

Hamilton is on €186,195 based on 2016. Yes he does some sports commentaries too, though there a lot of Lyric presenters with RTE as staff for years such as Marty, Niall Carroll, Liz Nolan and Lorcan.

John Kelly is also a highly paid presenter on well over €130k for playing 2 hours of records in the evening. In 2007 he earned €215,636 as a contractor

Infoanon · 15-09-2019 4:49pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Infoanon wrote: »

First it was Closing Lyric, now the headings are:
RTE to close Cork Studios
RTE to sell lands at Montrose

Spot a trend yet ?.

On the bigger issue:
If you want public service broadcasting - RnaG, Lyric etc then you have to pay more it,
If you don't then say goodbye to RnaG etc

Sam Smyth raised a good point on the Marian show - does RTE have any plan 10 year? Even 5 year ?

Hard to have a plan on shifting sands to be fair! In 10 years time RTE may well not exist at all.

Not really - if this was the private sector there would be plans - business risk and proposals to mitigate the risks as a minimum

chicorytip · 15-09-2019 10:07pm

ford fiesta wrote: »

Salary costs for Lyric must be huge....How much exactly??

Hamilton is on €186,195 based on 2016. Yes he does some sports commentaries too, though there a lot of Lyric presenters with RTE as staff for years such as Marty, Niall Carroll, Liz Nolan and Lorcan.

John Kelly is also a highly paid presenter on well over €130k for playing 2 hours of records in the evening. In 2007 he earned €215,636 as a contractor

At least Hamilton seems knowledgeable of and enthusiastic about classical music. His shows are enjoyable to listen to as a result. Whelan, Murray and Kelly are just pop disc jockeys and their presence is jarringly at odds with the overall context of what a classical music station should be broadcasting.

Doblin · 15-09-2019 10:19pm

In about 2006 RTE decided to start using lyric as a dumping ground for djs no longer wanted on R1 or 2fm. Marty Whelan admitted in his autobiography, that he thought the head of Radio was joking when he offered him a show on lyric.

RTE considering future of Lyric FM

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