Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Bobby Sands - see Mod Note in OP.

135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Truthvader wrote: »
    A lot of misguided and misunderstood history on this topic.

    First; the 1916 Rising had no popular support at the time. Had a relative involved and the story is that his family were horrified that he could have got himself involved in anything so stupid. By 1916 Irish people were happy enough. The anti Catholic nonsense was over, land issues were solved and, for those interested Home Rule was on the way (though held up by the war). Most people just wanted a quiet pint and a trip to Dalkey on the tram with their girl.

    In contrast Derry/ Belfast was a bearpit of poverty injustice and subjogation for working class Catholics by 1969. If you read the circumstaces of Bobby Sands childhood it is no surprise that he turned to violence and death - including his own. Working class Catholics were beaten into subjugation

    Fianna Fail and Fine Gael never admit this and persist with good old freedom fighters v the terrorists which is a lie

    The civil rights movement was hijacked by Adams and Mcguiness & Co ably assisted by the B Specials, parachute regiment and a segment of the RUC. The truth is that the murder and pain achieved zero save a few trips to Washington and a holiday home in Donegal for Uncle Gerry. I believe myself that Adams knew all about Stakeknife but let him run as he was clearing the runway for Adams "International Statesman" act.

    The rest of it was a cruel waste of youth and beauty that led to nothing but death and tears and has left a dreadful legacy of subhuman thuggery. Even now whole working class areas have been sold out to local Provo thugs or their Loyalist counperparts controlled by people so damaged they believe that it is a greater wrong for a 15 year old boy to steal a car than for grown men to capture the same boy and maim him for life.

    While I abhor the likes of Adams/ McGuinness/ Sands I understand how people were driven to a kind of insane cruelty by what was visted on them. Less time for Mary Lou who just saw an opportunity for herself - or the creepy Dessie Ellis making bombs for other people to plant from the safety of the South. Topped the poll in Finglas. So proud

    In my view you have a very simplistic view of history in northern Ireland, but it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

    Personally I view Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness as two men who among others were instrumental in bringing about peace in northern Ireland at great personal risk.

    Do you actually really think that Gerry Adams risked his life from so many different quarters just so he could get a few flights to Washington and spend a few weeks holiday in a cottage in Donegal?

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    Zaph wrote: »
    He was an MP in name only. Even if he wasn't in prison he wouldn't have attended parliament or participated in the democratic process to represent his constituents. Thatcher was pretty cold hearted, but I fail to see why she would or should care more about Sands just because he was an MP.

    Whatever about the 'MP in name only' semantics (and I accept the point you're making Zaph) Sand's constituents (IMO) knew what kind of representation they were voting for. A mandate of a different sort?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    Truthvader wrote: »
    A lot of misguided and misunderstood history on this topic.

    First; the 1916 Rising had no popular support at the time.

    Firstly I'm not attempting to contradict you here as truthfully I'm quite ignorant on the detail but I've often wondered about the truth of this, could you or anyone else point me towards some reading on the subject?

    I'm familiar with the IT reports of the Rising Leaders being abused in the streets but I would certainly be interested to read more.


  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    PCeeeee wrote: »
    Firstly I'm not attempting to contradict you here as truthfully I'm quite ignorant on the detail but I've often wondered about the truth of this, could you or anyone else point me towards some reading on the subject?

    I'm familiar with the IT reports of the Rising Leaders being abused in the streets but I would certainly be interested to read more.

    We were told at school the slow drawn out nature of the executions changed nation view,along with a pit for 200 bodies being dug,london had to put a stop to.maxwell killing people


    (similar to drawn out nature of hunger striker deaths perhaps???, its said the country split along roughly same as civil war lines surronding the hunger strikes,would love to see a book/unbiased report on it some time)

    Though tomorrow is sean mccaughey anniversairy (1946),last person to die on hunger strike in the 26 counties


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    We were told at school the slow drawn out nature of the executions changed nation view

    Aye and that's the bit I have trouble with, a rising with minimal or zero popular support transformed in a reasonably short period into a war with I assume widespread support? All catalysed by the execution of the ringleaders of an unpopular revolt.

    It seems unlikely. Surely there had to be a decent (tacit?) level of support?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    In my view you have a very simplistic view of history in northern Ireland, but it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

    Personally I view Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness as two men who among others were instrumental in bringing about peace in northern Ireland at great personal risk.

    Do you actually really think that Gerry Adams risked his life from so many different quarters just so he could get a few flights to Washington and spend a few weeks holiday in a cottage in Donegal?

    First off appreciate the courteous and respectful tone of rejoinder. Often these debates descend into abuse.

    As to Adams, I dont believe he risked a thing. Remember he was never "in" the IRA . Happy enough to send other peoples children out to murder for him though. What was it all for?

    Embraced the peace process to save his own skin when he realised the provos were thouroughly infiltrated. Think he is a treacherous sick individual capable of anything.

    As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away but sentiment changed when the leaders were executed. Think they were seen as eejits who did not deserve death.

    The point I am making is that sociopathic individuals intervene again and again in Irish history to take advantage.

    Remember when the British Army arrived in Belfast they were welcomed in Catholic areas as they were sent to protect them from a malevolent Protestant majority who were burning them out.

    Didn't suit Adams and McGuiness & Co who spotted a career move - regardless of cost.

    Bottom line murdering achieves nothing but death and pain


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    Truthvader wrote: »

    As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away

    And that's what I have always heard also.

    But a couple of points on that.

    The people of Ireland do not consist solely of people in Dublin

    I find it hard to belive that people who possibly did support the rising would have appeared on the street supporting the defeated leaders in full view of the military they had rebelled against.

    And I have a hazy recollection of reading something that suggested that many of the abusers were wives of people in the Army, away in France at the time.

    I suspect there is nuance to this I am missing and this is as good a place as any to ask.


  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    PCeeeee wrote: »
    Aye and that's the bit I have trouble with, a rising with minimal or zero popular support transformed in a reasonably short period into a war with I assume widespread support? All catalysed by the execution of the ringleaders of an unpopular revolt.

    It seems unlikely. Surely there had to be a decent (tacit?) level of support?

    There would been tacit support (as with all rebellions here).....same as hunger strikers generally seen in many areas as misguided young men,in a horrible situation who got caught up in things they shouldnt have



    I read somewhere that the area the1916 leaders/particpates were marched through on way to jail(?) was inhabitated by families of soldiers gone to war/been generally sympathetic to.the british.........someone with more in depth knowledge may tell yous more


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    There would been tacit support (as with all rebellions here).....same as hunger strikers generally seen in many areas as misguided young men,in a horrible situation who got caught up in things they shouldnt have



    I read somewhere that the area the1916 leaders/particpates were marched through on way to jail(?) was inhabitated by families of soldiers gone to war/been generally sympathetic to.the british.........someone with more in depth knowledge may tell yous more

    Thanks Blaaz, I vaguely remember that too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Truthvader wrote: »
    First off appreciate the courteous and respectful tone of rejoinder. Often these debates descend into abuse.

    As to Adams, I dont believe he risked a thing. Remember he was never "in" the IRA . Happy enough to send other peoples children out to murder for him though. What was it all for?

    Embraced the peace process to save his own skin when he realised the provos were thouroughly infiltrated. Think he is a treacherous sick individual capable of anything.


    As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away but sentiment changed when the leaders were executed. Think they were seen as eejits who did not deserve death.

    The point I am making is that sociopathic individuals intervene again and again in Irish history to take advantage.

    Remember when the British Army arrived in Belfast they were welcomed in Catholic areas as they were sent to protect them from a malevolent Protestant majority who were burning them out.

    Didn't suit Adams and McGuiness & Co who spotted a career move - regardless of cost.

    Bottom line murdering achieves nothing but death and pain


    Okay, again I think your opinion is borne out of ignorance but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it as much as I am to mine.

    I can't help thinking that nobody can be that ignorant though but then again I've seen Brexit voted in so I'll remain open minded even though I have a suspicion you are trying to provoke a reaction with your simplistic replies.

    I'd be confident most people would be aware the whole point of murder is to achieve death so that point does not need to be explained.

    Thank you for input, dialogue is good, it's been educational.

    Tóg go bog é.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    One must remember that there were thousands of Irishmen away fighting in France Belgium etc, many many who were in the Volunteers and were encouraged to go by Redmond.
    The Dublin Fusiliers had been hammered at Gallipoli and in Flanders so it was easy to see why their families would see the 1916 Rising as a stab in the back. There are too many people who are totally ignorant of the big picture. Dublin had the worst tenements in Europe and joining the British army was a means of making a living. The same applied all over the country and it's easy to make judgements now about events then


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Dublin is not Ireland but 1916 was almost exclusively Dublin.

    As to popular support; again Dublin was not Derry in 1969. Most people were happy and mystified/ horrfied to find the City wrecked. Know my own relative had a good civil service job and his family just could not believe he had been part of such a foolish adventure.

    Another point there are lists of British army dead in Beggars Bush barracks and orher places listed on the web . Many were lads from Tipperary or Kilkenny murdered on their way back to barracks from a night out. Didn't even know the "rebellion" had started. A lot killed in 1916 were our own. Plus others were out fighting the Hun in France at the time


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    [/B]
    Okay, again I think your opinion is borne out of ignorance but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it as much as I am to mine.

    I can't help thinking that nobody can be that ignorant though but then again I've seen Brexit voted in so I'll remain open minded even though I have a suspicion you are trying to provoke a reaction with your simplistic replies.

    I'd be confident most people would be aware the whole point of murder is to achieve death so that point does not need to be explained.

    Thank you for input, dialogue is good, it's been educational.

    Tóg go bog é.

    Dialogue is good. Plus murder does indeed achieve death. But nothing else


  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    As an ex republican ( N and S- arrested for suspected membership etc 2003- Dundalk)
    Walked away after a lifetime of it , I can heart on hand categorically state that all the hunger strikers were used for political gain for SF, which in turn brought about the GFA
    Before they died SF were dead ducks so the ultimate sacrifice brought about some semblance of peace
    But they were used no doubt, anyone interested Google " Brendan " the dark" Hughes"

    I watched a documentary on this, Darky Hughes and GA were real tight until Darky went to prison in the 80s. When he got out GA wouldn't talk to him.

    Danny Morrison claims SF tried to talk Sands and come sway from the strike but many would argue otherwise


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    antgal23 wrote: »
    I watched a documentary on this, Darky Hughes and GA were real tight until Darky went to prison in the 80s. When he got out GA wouldn't talk to him.

    Danny Morrison claims SF tried to talk Sands and come sway from the strike but many would argue otherwise

    Ed Moloney's Voices From the Grave sets out Hughes' account in detail. It's good but I wouldn't take him entirely on face value; moralising about relatively minor issues from the time he fell out with Adams whereas his involvement in Bloody Friday when his star was on the rise didn't seem to cause him a moments bother.

    Sadly for history it seems similar revelations won't be forthcoming as the PSNI made an idiotic and hopeless attempt to base prosecutions on such posthumously published accounts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    [Deleted] double post


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    BloodyBill wrote: »
    Why did you attend their funerals? Did you know them.
    Well, over 100,000 people went to Bobby Sands funeral, Im guessing most didn't personally know him, maybe 2000 - 3000 at the funeral would have known Bobby Sands. The other mourners were there to pay their respects from all over Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Why would you call yourself after a group that murdered about 35 innocent people, seriously injuring many many others in a bombing campaign plus an unarmed policeman. Can only assume you have some pride in these brave actions. What was it all for?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    "Goodbye lovie,
    We'll talk about it tonight.
    A little brother for Sinéad,
    Aye....or a sister....it very well might,
    It might just be that.
    We'll talk about it tonight
    And 'till tonight I love you."

    Kiss.
    Kiss.
    Kiss.

    Down the yard the car was parked
    And just as well.
    Key in the ignition
    And a fireball out of hell
    With bloody blast and blaze
    And bits of brain are dripping
    From the apple tree,
    Left hand is hiding under next doors hedge.
    The right is fused around the key,
    And all the bits they found are in a box
    With his cap on top
    That Ireland might be free.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    Truthvader wrote: »
    First off appreciate the courteous and respectful tone of rejoinder. Often these debates descend into abuse.

    As to Adams, I dont believe he risked a thing. Remember he was never "in" the IRA . Happy enough to send other peoples children out to murder for him though. What was it all for?

    Embraced the peace process to save his own skin when he realised the provos were thouroughly infiltrated. Think he is a treacherous sick individual capable of anything.

    As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away but sentiment changed when the leaders were executed. Think they were seen as eejits who did not deserve death.

    The point I am making is that sociopathic individuals intervene again and again in Irish history to take advantage.

    Remember when the British Army arrived in Belfast they were welcomed in Catholic areas as they were sent to protect them from a malevolent Protestant majority who were burning them out.

    Didn't suit Adams and McGuiness & Co who spotted a career move - regardless of cost.

    Bottom line murdering achieves nothing but death and pain

    You are aware that Adams was subject to gun and bomb attacks and had several serious attempts on his life and he spent many years on the run never spending more than a couple of days in one house. Doesn't sound like someone who didn't risk a thing.

    The IRA were finished as the formal British forces were executing IRA personnel. This they could handle. They used their proxies to murder the family members of republicans though. This is what sapped morale and put the writing on the wall. Dirty business


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Like to hear from Corks finest again, He seems to have had some involvement on the sharp end and put some thought into it afterwards. Was it worth it? Was there no other way? Were there any winners?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    You are aware that Adams was subject to gun and bomb attacks and had several serious attempts on his life and he spent many years on the run never spending more than a couple of days in one house. Doesn't sound like someone who didn't risk a thing.

    The IRA were finished as the formal British forces were executing IRA personnel. This they could handle. They used their proxies to murder the family members of republicans though. This is what sapped morale and put the writing on the wall. Dirty business

    OK good point although if you are in the business of indiscriminate widespread murder and maiming of civilians you might expect to get some comeback. I assume the executing IRA personnel as the shoot to kill policy. Never heard of the targeting of family members though so many were welded to murder and thuggery as a way of life nothing would surprise me. Remain of the view that Gerry is a deeply sinister individual who only grabbed the peace process when it was clear that self preservation was best served by that


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭corks finest


    Truthvader wrote: »
    Like to hear from Corks finest again, He seems to have had some involvement on the sharp end and put some thought into it afterwards. Was it worth it? Was there no other way? Were there any winners?

    Not worth it TBH, once the box was opened couldn't be closed again,
    All sides lost
    GFA a failure where it should work most- dissafected working class youth AKA fodder for whomever gives them an identity,
    They need education/ work/ mortgages hope / not in supply I'm afraid.
    UDA biggest pushers in the 6 counties
    Real IRA etc etc biggest oil/ cigarette smugglers in Ireland
    Provos leftovers joining new IRA
    SF losing out in Derry especially to independent dissident politics/ SDLP
    IRA businesses well and truly hidden in building/ pubs/foreign property
    INLA run pubs etc even in Cork
    Meanwhile jails have all different groups within ie
    Some Cork republicans in portlaoise prison down with Dessie o Hare ,
    Other Cork republicans on the main wing don't mix with others
    Maghaberry prison same
    So the poison is continuing to be stirred
    Only way this stops is
    1. Jobs
    2.education
    3. Mixed housing/ schools
    4. Dialogue ( it's ongoing atm)
    5. Devolved government with a Hong Kong style of withdrawal
    PS if it didn't happen Roman Catholics would still be 2nd class citizens at best


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Thanks so much for the reply. Have lived entire life in the safety of Dublin appalled by what was going on without having to deal with any of it directly. Agree with all you say.

    Slightly encouraged by this post in that differing views seem to be respected plus there is a willingness to listen which is not often the case and certainly was not in the past. The crime/prison roadmap you set out is depressing though but is mirrored in abandoned working class estates in Dublin where the only future many kids can see is as a member of some local drug cartel, a Gucci hat and stupid watch


  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    Not worth it TBH, once the box was opened couldn't be closed again,
    All sides lost
    GFA a failure where it should work most- dissafected working class youth AKA fodder for whomever gives them an identity,
    They need education/ work/ mortgages hope / not in supply I'm afraid.
    UDA biggest pushers in the 6 counties
    Real IRA etc etc biggest oil/ cigarette smugglers in Ireland
    Provos leftovers joining new IRA
    SF losing out in Derry especially to independent dissident politics/ SDLP
    IRA businesses well and truly hidden in building/ pubs/foreign property
    INLA run pubs etc even in Cork
    Meanwhile jails have all different groups within ie
    Some Cork republicans in portlaoise prison down with Dessie o Hare ,
    Other Cork republicans on the main wing don't mix with others
    Maghaberry prison same
    So the poison is continuing to be stirred
    Only way this stops is
    1. Jobs
    2.education
    3. Mixed housing/ schools
    4. Dialogue ( it's ongoing atm)
    5. Devolved government with a Hong Kong style of withdrawal
    PS if it didn't happen Roman Catholics would still be 2nd class citizens at best


    Solid post mate, lot of nails firmly hit on the head

    One factor worth highlighting is class. Religion was and is the stick to beat the North with but no one mentions the class structure.

    60s civil rights was an attempt by the Catholic underclass for equal access to housing and university

    The Protestant upper class didn't want to share the pie but it was labeled sectarianism.

    Sure, there was+ is a hatred of Catholics but it was mostly about money.

    Recent evidence of this class structure is how ruling class Protestants treat working class Protestants. The Catholic Minister for Education several year ago highlighted that fewer working class Protestants were attending 3rd level education than their Catholic peers.


  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    antgal23 wrote: »
    Solid post mate, lot of nails firmly hit on the head

    One factor worth highlighting is class. Religion was and is the stick to beat the North with but no one mentions the class structure.

    60s civil rights was an attempt by the Catholic underclass for equal access to housing and university

    The Protestant upper class didn't want to share the pie but it was labeled sectarianism.

    Sure, there was+ is a hatred of Catholics but it was mostly about money.

    Recent evidence of this class structure is how ruling class Protestants treat working class Protestants. The Catholic Minister for Education several year ago highlighted that fewer working class Protestants were attending 3rd level education than their Catholic peers.

    It is of ultimate irony,those who oppose reunification the most,will likely gain from it the most too....working class loyalists



    Francis hughes anniversary today too


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Not worth it TBH, once the box was opened couldn't be closed again,
    All sides lost
    GFA a failure where it should work most- dissafected working class youth AKA fodder for whomever gives them an identity,
    They need education/ work/ mortgages hope / not in supply I'm afraid.

    UDA biggest pushers in the 6 counties
    Real IRA etc etc biggest oil/ cigarette smugglers in Ireland
    Provos leftovers joining new IRA
    SF losing out in Derry especially to independent dissident politics/ SDLP
    IRA businesses well and truly hidden in building/ pubs/foreign property
    INLA run pubs etc even in Cork
    Meanwhile jails have all different groups within ie
    Some Cork republicans in portlaoise prison down with Dessie o Hare ,
    Other Cork republicans on the main wing don't mix with others
    Maghaberry prison same
    So the poison is continuing to be stirred
    Only way this stops is
    1. Jobs
    2.education
    3. Mixed housing/ schools
    4. Dialogue ( it's ongoing atm)
    5. Devolved government with a Hong Kong style of withdrawal
    PS if it didn't happen Roman Catholics would still be 2nd class citizens at best

    Get off the stage now boy, for the love of God.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    Get off the stage now boy, for the love of God.

    Wind yer neck in mate

    OP is answering a question with a detailed response which I feel is to the point and honest


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    antgal23 wrote: »
    Wind yer neck in mate

    OP is answering a question with a detailed response which I feel is to the point and honest

    Who, besides you, care's what you feel "mate"?

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    Who, besides you, care's what you feel "mate"?

    Before this comes a conversation jog on.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement