Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Some analysis from Murray Kinsella. You've a very dangerous backline but zero intention to actually use it.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1302010111314063366?s=19

That was very disappointing but not unexpected. It was noted by many before the match that the Munster front row would struggle and it came to pass. Would have been far better off with Ryan, O'Byrne and Cronin starting.

Half backs need to be dropped. Hanrahan isn't good enough. Never was and never will be and if that's harsh it's also true. Murray has been one of our best ever players but his reluctance to inject some pace (as well as the accuracy of some of his passes) is suffocating a very capable, on paper at least, back line. We need more from our scrum half. That was humiliating.

JvG is a buffer. I've followed Munster for over 15 years and I can't recall us having a more talented back five and how do we use them? We ask them to chase after box kicks when referees are essentially allowing blockers to fix the contest. I firmly believe Rassie foisted him on us to get him out of the South African system. Most SA supporters don't have a good thing to say about him and many believe he got his position through his connections.

Finally, Leinster were the deserving winners and would have won regardless but Brace is a very poor ref.

Those are some brutal stats.

Just watched the game - had it recorded on TG4.

I say this as a passionate, dyed-in-the-wool supporter of the province who has been sloppiest, scrappiest and least engaged of all four since rugby returned. So I am not getting any digs in. God knows how Ulster will fare tomorrow night. Don't think anyone would be surprised if we got reamed.

But that was an absolutely dire game. And Munster need to make some absolutely cut-throat decisions.

Those kicks Hanrahan missed were painful and extremely poor - but I'd lay the blame for the performance (and I mean performance rather than loss - we all keep losing to Leinster) squarely at the feet of your big names.

O'Mahony and De Allende were completely AWOL. Murray just repeated glacial box kick after box kick. Beirne is simply not tough enough - I keep harking back to a couple of years ago when you had Racing and Castres in your European group and he was anonymous throughout your Euro campaign. A big, gnarly pack and he has minimal influence. At second row, at least.

Your next games are Pro14, so you've some breathing room. I think Van Graan has to drop some big names. Start Beirne instead of POM at six - see how he goes there. Go with Holland and Wycherley at second row, until Kleyn gets back. Give Casey some starts. I was going to suggest O'Byrne rather than Scannell, but I looked him up and he's 29! So he's not going to kick on and he's not going to seriously improve the team.

You can't throw youth in unsupported and unchecked. I think your young 10s are simply too inexperienced to rotate them in instead of Hanrahan in any tough or meaningful game, unless you're prepared to lose and be philosophical. Bill Johnston is a bit of a loss to you guys. Ulster are wobbling at the moment but there's clearly A PLAN - Madigan over a season to let Johnston and Lowry develop, Matthewson to let Finlay and Doak develop. We're starting a Pro14 semifinal tomorrow with a 24 year old loosehead and a 21 year old tighthead. We'll feel the benefit of that not tomorrow but in a few years when they're properly the best we have in those positions, and, crucially, they won't be intimidated in those kinds of games. James Hume has the potential to be a brilliant centre and tomorrow evening he is running the 13 channel defence. Mark Bennett knows what he is doing and may make a ganch out of him - but we're moving forward in a way we haven't in years. I checked earlier and in the last decade we have had no less than 6 head coaches - McLaughlin, Anscombe, Kiss, Doak, Gibbes and McFarland. And before that, from 2004/05 to 2009/10, we had three head coaches - McCall, Steve Williams and Matt Williams. So - unbelievably - in the last fifteen years we've had 9 coaches. That, my friends, is mental. And reflects incredibly poorly on the Ulster set-up.

But it's also why I'm prepared to cut McFarland some serious slack. He's visibly and measurably building. He's righted the ship after that dreadful year when we were known primarily for the court case, in a way that Kiss and Gibbes seemed powerless to do. And I have to ask - is the idea that Larkham is a great backs coach - at club level, without the embarrassment of riches Oz had in the international backline - based on anything other than the fact that he was a good player? Because the coach that got Ulster to an HEC final after many years was also the guy that used to lecture me about fading in and out of games and give me a dressing down about not even trying when we were playing basketball - a school sports teacher. Coaching and playing are two totally different skill sets.

So, I suppose the question is, what do you want now from Van Graan and his team? Would it be acceptable to not make any play-offs next season but have Casey, Wycherley, Daly, Hodnett, Salanoa well established?

In all honesty, I think the sooner the media and fans let go of an underlying assumption that Munster deserve to be at the top table, the sooner the coaches will feel free to make some tough decisions and lose some potentially winnable games in order to improve for the future. And a lot of that assumption is on lazy, uninterested sports writers.

Hang dai, Munster fans. The very best of luck.

From the outside looking in it seems like Munster are relying on winning collisions but don't have the personnel to do so at the top level. I think it's possible to get away with selecting one or two forwards for qualities other than winning gainline but a pack featuring Scannell, Archer, Holland, and O'Mahony (and you could argue the toss about Beirne and Loughman) together is too underpowered.

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Go listen to the interviews with DdA and RG Snyman. When asked why Munster? The first thing out of their mouths is Coach Johan.

Think they'd have a better measure of the guy then allegedly "Most SA supporters"


The injuries in the first game against Leinster absolutely killed Munsters chances for this game (never mind not having carbery) and the 5 day turn around against a rested Leinster team was always going to be difficult

Two news signings are not going to go nuclear on the coach of the team they just signed. They are hear for the money. Nothing wrong with that either. The evidence of what Munster are doing Under JVG suggests this coach has no idea how to get the best out of

Murray JJH Earls DDA Farrell Conway Daly.

The only real positive for Munster in the last few weeks is Casey and Daly. Munster need to have a season where they accept a pro14 playoff might be missed in order to blood guys.



The 5 day turnaround is a bit of a weak excuse. Leinster will have had training sessions of a similar level of intensity. Munster basically put in a 20 min shift last Sunday and the game was done once cards came

Munster thought they could boxkick there way to victory after a poor showing by Leinster 2 weeks ago. Leinster improved areas that didn't function. Munster basically put in the same showing.

The tactics involved static, one man out carries, as they always do, with Murray taking an age to get the ball. The Leinster backline were just lined up and waiting for it every single time. There were numerous occasions when Leinster players had time to set and catch their breath before Murray did anything with it.

The pretty unceremoniously dropped Stringer for Murray when he was breaking through, it’s now come full circle.

Superfoods wrote: »

Yeah tactics are grand, nothing to see here, please move on

I don’t see why you say tactics are grand and then say they never used the centres, would it not be tactic to use the centres?

The tactic of a box kick with a greasy ball is a fair tactic, but losing possession because the catcher is not being put under enough pressure should have been flagged, and every now and then switch it up with a crash ball in the centre.

I guess the idea might have been to get into an attacking position first via kicking or line-outs, but never got the platform off those plays to use the centres to crash and open space for the back three.
The Leinster line was never exposed.

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

1.
Anyone else feel the tactics were fine but the execution of the box kicks by Murray was the problem?
Kicks landed 5 metres too far away for chasers to compete.

The interviews after the match were interesting, Caelan Doris said the ball was greasy and hard to hold onto, and Leo Cullen said Munster’s tactics did really frustrate Leinster.

2.
Losing possession in the line-outs at crucial moments cost us.

One time the ball was thrown between Holland and Toner at the back, think Toner hardly had to jump to win it.

Another one Leinster stole near the Leinster 22.

Our second rows are not doing the core work expected of a second row, not tall enough, we surely have a tall academy player to step in, using Holland, Wycherley is not good enough, and why Beirne didn’t run the line-out? He’s 6’6”, but for some reason he didn’t get the ball in the line-out much. Perhaps it was Munster trying to bluff because we didn’t have two tall options.

3.
Munster looked good with Casey speeding up the play.
He’s better than Murray already, would like to see him get more than 8 minutes when the game is practically gone.

4.
The Munster pack seem to lack power, but when they picked the ball quickly they found gaps to keep the forward momentum going. Perhaps we need to start telling the forwards to take more responsibility to pick and go when it’s on.

5.
Missing Snyman for the whole season is a sickener, and missing Kleyn and Kilcoyne probably cost us a bit of aggression in the pack.

6.
Why didn’t we use our big centres every now and then, Farrell hardly got a pass all match.

7.
Roll on the new season, glad to be watching matches again regardless of the result.

The tactics arent fine though. Munster are desperately predictable and the tactics arent good enough to beat the better sides in knockout rugby
Holland is a decent lineout operator but height wasnt reason Munsters lineout wasnt fantastic.
Casey has huge potential and needs to be seen more but no he isnt better than Murray already.

We need to ditch the archaic notion that 10s kick goals. Rory Scannell and Conor Murray are both great kickers. Needs to be horses for courses. Look at Auckland Blues switching between Black and Barrett depending on the angle. Too much pressure on JJ. A 10 needs to marshall the game, goal kicks are a tiny proportion of their game.


Is John Ryan having health issues again? For the life of me I don't understand why we started Archer. Holland is there to fill gaps during international weeks, should not be starting in big games. Wycherley was a candidate for motm last week. Mindless to bench him this week.