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The returned home world war 1

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Joyce86 wrote: »
    Do you represent the Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

    No. They were disbanded 90 years ago.

    If you mean the Royal Dublin Fusiliers Association the answer is No.

    You are not realy fighting your corner here on Boards.ie. And you dont seem to have answered the questions that were put to you about what is going to happen to all the free information and research that members of the public are doing for your group.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Joyce86 wrote: »
    We are a voluntary group who are researching those Irish Men and Women who returned home from world war 1 to the island of Ireland. This is not for profit research, not going to be sold and our aim is to try and get the names into a more permanent form. So far we have 20,000 names on www.thereturnedww1.com We are doing this because we think those who returned deserve to be remembered. They all had their own reasons for enlisting. If you know any names, please consider sending the name to us.

    We have started a petition "Dublin City Council: To name the new luas bridge "The returned home WW1"" and need your help to get it off the ground. We would be most appreciative if you would consider supporting our application. Here is the link:-
    http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/dublin-city-council-to-name-the-new-luas-bridge-the-returned-home-ww1
    You can sign our petition by clicking here.
    If you know of anyone else who might support our petition, please feel free to pass this on.

    Many thanks,


    Eh, no thanks. I'd rather not commemorate people for being paid mercenaries of the British Empire in its imperial war against imperial Germany in order to maintain a balance of power in Europe which had favoured British imperialism since 1815 during a period when the same empire inflicted its profound cultural colonialism, racism and imperialist supremacy upon the Irish as a sovereign people.

    There is absolutely nothing noble about fighting for that British imperialist ideology. This delusional cant about them not fighting for the British Empire but rather for noble things like Irish independence when they were wearing the British Empire's uniform and fighting under orders from it is offensive. Offensive, yet ubiquitous. If there was anybody naive enough to fight for British imperialism in World War they made up in part for their sins by fighting for Irish freedom afterwards and it is for that latter role as defenders of freedom that people like Tom Barry could be honoured by the sovereign Irish state.

    British imperialism got away with inflicting its supremacist, exploiting evil across the world because it had (paid) mercenaries like the people you now wish to commemorate. After WW II, such footsoldiers on the German side were told they were culpable in the crimes of the Nazi régime. Yet the massive double standard from the British and supporters of their footsoldiers on the issue of moral responsibility for the crimes of the British Empire is disgusting. The hypocrisy of all of these pro-British campaigners on the abject immorality of imperialist warfare never ceases to amaze. To them, violence from British imperial forces represents a "greater good" (for their tribe, of course). These "campaigners" have no moral compass, no moral consistency - at all. It's a tribal campaign to honour mercenaries for the British tribe. It's not about right or wrong, because if it were the victims of British imperialism would be honoured by these people. Instead, they seek to honour the perpetrators of British imperialism. Because, you see, they were family members and that means all judgements on the morality of their actions are suspended. That's about as tribal, rightwing and heartless as any group of human beings can get. If I had a mé féiner self-serving murderer in my family history, I certainly wouldn't be seeking to honour them. Lunacy. Yet these buckos get a campaign to honour them because they wore the uniform of the British Empire.

    These people were willing pawns of British imperialism in WW I whose descendants (most of whom never actually knew them, to make these campaigns more comical) are seeking to rehabilitate their reputation. They should be assessed honestly and not in this historical distortion of assumed innocence. For instance, the dominant role of money in their decisions to fight for British imperialism in WW I is rarely if ever mentioned - there were "various reasons" for joining. Mar dhea. We can't have these putative "heroes" being assessed as money-hungry little sleveen mé féiners who'd sell their own grannies to advance themselves, who'd fight for the advance of the very same British Empire that was occupying Ireland. At least the Black slaves on the Confederate side in the US Civil War had little choice in the matter. But the Irish-born who took the King's shilling to fight for imperialist interests in a war in which they did not expect to be killed? You're going to get very little volunteerism for bravery there. They took a gamble, many of them lost. Tough. You'll get "after-the-fact" bravery in the trenches, of course. Accidental "heroes"; they hadn't a notion when they signed up that war would be of the new sort, and in the trenches they took their chances in the awareness that they'd certainly be shot if they deserted. That reality of these people is certainly not the sort of "bravery" one would be commemorated for.

    In contrast, the 10,000 Irish Volunteers who stayed in Ireland and the members of the Irish Citizens Army who supported "neither King nor Kaiser but Ireland" are among the people we should be commemorating, if this society is going down that glorification of war road beloved of British jingoists/imperialists/nationalists. If apologists for footsoldiers of the British Empire want official recognition let them seek it from the British state, not from the independent sovereign state of the Irish people, the very state which their ancestors by their membership of the very force which was preventing Irish independence was fighting against.

    When will people start discussing honestly the morality of Irish people being paid to fight for the British Empire and keep peoples across the world subservient to the needs of the British state and its elite? The last thing such people deserve is commemoration. They are, quite frankly, a source of shame to people who believe in justice and the rights of small countries to exist, just as the entire British Empire is a source of shame to open-minded and decent British people today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Neutronale wrote: »
    Why do you feel the need to honour them, they fought for the English Queen, let them name a bridge in England for them.

    You at least know your history.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Rebelheart I cant say I agree with eveything you have said but I see with the direction you are coming from.

    What do you think of those Irish Nationalists who fought in the War of Independence who served in the British army and took the Saxon shilling , people like James Connolly , Michael Mallin , Tom Barry , Martin Doyle , the Connaught Rangers Mutiny in India 1920 , Erskine Childers and Robert Monteith and the C company of the Dublin Fusiliers which was made up of Larkenites? Traitors all ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Rebelheart I cant say I agree with eveything you have said but I see with the direction you are coming from.

    What do you think of those Irish Nationalists who fought in the War of Independence who served in the British army and took the Saxon shilling , people like James Connolly , Michael Mallin , Tom Barry , Martin Doyle , the Connaught Rangers Mutiny in India 1920 , Erskine Childers and Robert Monteith and the C company of the Dublin Fusiliers which was made up of Larkenites? Traitors all ?


    Very true RDF,Not to forget the numerous Belfast and Derry men of the National Volunteers who joined the 6th Connaught Rangers, and the men from all over the country who joined the 16th Irish Division, many men with British Army service provided valuable experience to the IRA during the WOI.Heres a few more who served in both the BA and IRA, hardly traitors
    Lieut.Emmet Dalton MC ,Royal Dublin Fusiliers 1914-18, Old IRA 1919-1922 Dublin Brig.
    L/Cpl,George Adamson DCM Leinster Regiment and MGC 1914-18,Old IRA1919-1922,Athlone Brig.
    Pte.P.Horkan MM, Worcs Rgt.1914-18. Old IRA 1919-22, Mayo Brig.
    Pte.J.O'Farrell MM,MiD, Irish Guards 1914-18, Old IRA 1919-22


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Rebelheart I cant say I agree with eveything you have said but I see with the direction you are coming from.

    What do you think of those Irish Nationalists who fought in the War of Independence who served in the British army and took the Saxon shilling , people like James Connolly , Michael Mallin , Tom Barry , Martin Doyle , the Connaught Rangers Mutiny in India 1920 , Erskine Childers and Robert Monteith and the C company of the Dublin Fusiliers which was made up of Larkenites? Traitors all ?
    I think he covered that:

    If there was anybody naive enough to fight for British imperialism in World War they made up in part for their sins by fighting for Irish freedom afterwards and it is for that latter role as defenders of freedom that people like Tom Barry could be honoured by the sovereign Irish state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    GRMA wrote: »
    I think he covered that:

    If there was anybody naive enough to fight for British imperialism in World War they made up in part for their sins by fighting for Irish freedom afterwards and it is for that latter role as defenders of freedom that people like Tom Barry could be honoured by the sovereign Irish state.

    I didn't ask you but i'll take what you said , what about the Connaught Rangers mutiny in India 1920 , Irish nationalists taking the kings shilling? Still sung about by the Wolfe Tones and others.

    I think the aims of this bridge naming group is a folly. It will not be settled here and it wont have the crap name they chose. I would rather it was named after the DMP man who had the memorial on Hawkins street.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    No. They were disbanded 90 years ago.

    If you mean the Royal Dublin Fusiliers Association the answer is No.

    You are not realy fighting your corner here on Boards.ie. And you dont seem to have answered the questions that were put to you about what is going to happen to all the free information and research that members of the public are doing for your group.

    Have to agree with this. OP, your group might mean well but why not answer questions asked of you? Reading back through this, you only seem to address points you're comfortable with. Genuinely, I don't understand why you would begin a thread like this if you are not going to engage fully.

    Also, could you please explain in plain English the meaning of these two sentences from your terms and conditions?

    'No warranties are given by thereturnedww1.com as to merchantability, title or non-infringement of any rights. Your privacy is protected as far as feasible and no personal data shall be shared other than the details supplied for the project.' From http://www.thereturnedww1.com/#/terms-conditions/4559697674


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 Joyce86


    This is a voluntary project and not for profit. All the information about us and our project is on our website. We are given names from members of the public to be added to the list and we get names from research. We would like the names to be in some sort of permanent published form similar to the Ypres memorial books which gives the names of those who were killed.

    A minority of the posts seem very bitter and venting spleen. One post does not seem to know their history as it was King not Queen at the time of World War 1. Whatever their reasons for enlisting be it choice, be it necessity be it for democracy, they are a part of our history. They should not be forgotten.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Joyce86 wrote: »
    This is a voluntary project and not for profit. All the information about us and our project is on our website. We are given names from members of the public to be added to the list and we get names from research. We would like the names to be in some sort of permanent published form similar to the Ypres memorial books which gives the names of those who were killed.

    A minority of the posts seem very bitter and venting spleen. One post does not seem to know their history as it was King not Queen at the time of World War 1. Whatever their reasons for enlisting be it choice, be it necessity be it for democracy, they are a part of our history. They should not be forgotten.

    At least those who are for and against the naming your group chose are up front about their reasoning for their views.

    You have avoided the questions put to you and are not saying what your group are going to do with the names and information you want from them.

    To be honest I don't mind who the bridge is named after once its not anyone from the modern political parties but I have never heard of the British French Americans etc.naming anything after people who returned after a war.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Joyce86 wrote: »
    This is a voluntary project and not for profit. All the information about us and our project is on our website.

    That is nonsense.

    I bridge the divide in that I have ancestors who fought in the War of Independence and fought in WWI. Most of my WWI kinsmen did not come home, one (13th Bn., Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.) died on Saturday, 24th April 1915, age 32) dying under Canadian Colours because he did not want to fight for Britain but believed in the purpose of the War.

    That said, if ever anybody set out to make an example of how something should not be done, you have set the template. Firstly, your website is rubbish (I will return to that later) and your communication / PR is even worse.

    There are many here on Boards who have an open mind on our past and have been very helpful to those searching for War dead/ survivor records. A basic search by you of some the posters’ responses would indicate that you clearlywould have allies here; several posts on this thread have been equally positive, requesting information. To anyone involved in developing ANYTHING, that is a golden opportunity to talk to your audience. Instead, you chose to ignore a basic request, HERE expressed courteously. The absence of a reply did your organization no favours.

    As for your website, it is antiquated, amateurish, contains spelling errors and says nothing of relevance about who is behind your organization. (You still hide, anonymously.) The ‘Terms and conditions’ page contains irrelevant gobbledegook and legal jargon that looks as if it has been ‘cut and pasted’ from another site by a young teenager trying to be clever – you control site content so what is the point in saying posted material ‘.....is not defamatory, malicious, vulgar, and obscene, racially or ethnically object able, discrimatory [sic] or otherwise objectionable’ ? Also, it is Republic of Ireland (not republic.) Even the lists of names are not properly sorted. Sorting through thirteen pages to check on just ONE surname is daft in this day of ‘merge’.
    It is difficult enough to combat the anti-British bigots who vent spleen (your words) here and elsewhere; you, by proposing a daft name, by alienating support and by total carelessness on your marketing have done the ‘Returned Home’ no favours. They deserve better. For those reasons I will not be a contributor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    Joyce86 wrote: »
    This is a voluntary project and not for profit. All the information about us and our project is on our website. We are given names from members of the public to be added to the list and we get names from research. We would like the names to be in some sort of permanent published form similar to the Ypres memorial books which gives the names of those who were killed.

    A minority of the posts seem very bitter and venting spleen. One post does not seem to know their history as it was King not Queen at the time of World War 1. Whatever their reasons for enlisting be it choice, be it necessity be it for democracy, they are a part of our history. They should not be forgotten.

    You are still not answering questions. This thread and last year's on the Genealogy forum have 2,000 hits and counting between them. I don't think you are doing your project any favours. I'm actually in favour of collecting information about ex-service people (not the bridge thing though. Sounds like bridge is to be called after your project than in remembrance of anyone). So many service records were destroyed that family info may be the only record of service. After this though, I'm out and won't be contributing info about family members. While you might mean well, your PR is atrocious and is pretty disrespectful of potential contributors.

    I don't have time to read it, but does your website say you are also looking for permission to publish information in a book?

    As for posts being 'very bitter' and 'venting spleen,' you might not agree with them, but people are entitled to their opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Reekwind wrote: »
    I hate to be the one to ask this but here goes: why?

    Obviously vilifying people is never very nice but why should a bridge in Dublin be named after people who fought in the British Army? As far as I'm concerned these men did not die for Ireland and they did not die for a particularly noble cause.

    I agree with your sentiment somewhat about going to war - I cannot agree with war on any level.
    It may be worth pointing out that in 1914 when WW1 stated that the British Army was the army in Ireland. Blokes joined armys for a variety of reasons, money was the biggest.
    I could not vilify anyone who joined to get some money, in a pre welfare state, being hungry is a good way to sort out your political ideologies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    There were less arguments and fireworks in the Bridge Over The River Kwai.:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    It will just end up being called traitors bridge.

    Or given the Dublin penchant for rhyming couplets to denigrate their monuments, it could be called something much worse.

    The "**** by the Bankers" bridge (given that it will be in the financial district)

    or the Poltroon Pontoon

    Come to think of it, you might prefer to call it after a "dead GAA player" after all. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Or given the Dublin penchant for rhyming couplets to denigrate their monuments, it could be called something much worse.

    The "**** by the Bankers" bridge (given that it will be in the financial district)

    or the Poltroon Pontoon

    Come to think of it, you might prefer to call it after a "dead GAA player" after all. :)

    It could be named "The Get Over it Bridge".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    It could be named "The Get Over it Bridge".

    That's almost on a par with the OP's proposed name for it :P. The name 'The Fallen Bridge' would never sink in, but it could make a splash of publicity!;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    The name 'The Fallen Bridge' would never sink in, but it could make a splash of publicity!;)

    LOL.

    Must look out my old recording of the Goon Show's "Sunken Westminster Pier" sketch.

    "It looks like the government is going to step in!"
    "Good riddance to them!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    I am sympathetic to having these men remembered but really, it's a bad name for a bridge, or anything in fact. I have three men in my family who fought/died/survived WWI and sorry, but I won't go along with naming anything such a thing as I doubt if my guys would have been in favour of it, and I respect them too much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭Neutronale


    You at least know your history.

    Thats ryesh :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Step23


    While I think it's not a bad idea having a bridge named to remember those who served in WW1, I couldn't get over how terrible the suggested name is, its on par with something like "The WW1 army man soldier bridge". While I would be in favour of the idea, it would be more fitting to name the bridge in connection with the Dublin Fusiliers or a battle they fought particularly hard in. Having said that, sadly I can't imagine the bridge being given such a name, as it would upset certain types of narrow minded people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Step23 wrote: »
    I can't imagine the bridge being given such a name, as it would upset certain types of narrow minded people.

    Somebody having a different point of view to mine doesn't mean they're "narrow minded."

    It just means they're wrong.

    :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Neutronale wrote: »
    Thats ryesh :)

    I don't think he was being serious.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭Neutronale


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I don't think he was being serious.:)

    Course he was, he recognises genius when he sees it :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Neutronale wrote: »
    Course he was, he recognises genius when he sees it :D

    No doubt he'll be back to point out your error shortly.:P


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    if its named after ww1 it should be named in a way which in no way glorifies a pointless war
    perhaps the lions led by donkey's bridge?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Step23 wrote: »
    While I would be in favour of the idea, it would be more fitting to name the bridge in connection with the Dublin Fusiliers or a battle they fought particularly hard in.


    Yes, how about the Boer Concentration Camp Bridge? We could get a sculptor to carve images of tens of thousands of dying Boer women and children into it.

    The apologists don't like mention of the victims of British imperialism, though. It's all about glorification of the British side. Bridges, statues, monuments and the like just to "commemorate" their side, their tribe. To mention the victims is, well, "narrow minded" it seems.
    Step23 wrote: »
    sadly I can't imagine the bridge being given such a name, as it would upset certain types of narrow minded people.

    Oh, please do tell us how people who object to commemorating the mercenaries of the British Empire, and all the inhumanity they were party to upholding across the world, are "narrow minded" for that objection?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    I don't think the republican movement has clean hands either , of course they are not in the same league as the British , French, Spanish etc.

    The bridge won't be named after anything to do with WW1 it will most likely be related to the Easter Rising but the council won't be looking on the pages of Boards for an answer.

    By the way nobody supports the name suggested by the OP or the new name the OP suggested.


  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭eejoynt


    as outlined in another thread, the comemmoration of past wars in small nations can be controversial...the other thread mentions latvia,
    here is an example of estonia
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-as-ss-men-hold-anniversary-celebration-in-estonia-6166026.html

    for clarity i am not suggesting any moral equivalence, I am just pointing out some of the complications of end of empire, be it british, nazi or soviet


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭mickmackey1


    Well this really seems to be gathering pace:


    roshac_zps50aa9ba1.jpg


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