Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

The erection & removal of British colonial monuments in Ireland

Options
12467

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    CDfm wrote: »
    I seem to remember around 20 years back when a tree planted by DeValera in a North Cork Village was cut down by persons unknown with a chainsaw one night.It might have been a statement or a drunken prank. Who knows. More importantly, who cares.

    Before modern media a statue or a parade had some significance. Where is the DeValera Monument or the Collins Monument. They are not there.

    I mentioned earlier in the thread that there is a Collins monument in the Merrion Square, I'm almost certain of that. Also; http://www.goireland.com/cork/michael-collins-monument-attraction-monuments-id15538.htm

    I agree that there are not as many explicit or central monuments to people of that period but as Republicans they would not or should not have expected monuments anyways.


  • Options
    #93
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    brianthebard wrote: »
    I agree that there are not as many explicit or central monuments to people of that period but as Republicans they would not or should not have expected monuments anyways.

    I don't think what they would or should have expected is relevant. I think the legacy of the civil war is why neither of those 2 figures have more prominent statues, which is a shame on both cases. Instead we end up with stephen gately and phil lynnott.


  • Options
    #94
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Morlar wrote: »
    I don't think what they would or should have expected is relevant. I think the legacy of the civil war is why neither of those 2 figures have more prominent statues, which is a shame on both cases.

    There is no doubt about it that Collins historically had the edge and had matinee idol looks. Certainly , DeV was sensitive to any Collins memorials when he was alive.

    Funnily enough, Youghals DeValera St and the Jack Lynch Tunnell in Cork were named when those gents were alive. Curious that.

    I googled it and there are DeValera Streets in Youghal and New Delhi,.

    Instead we end up with stephen gately and phil lynnott.

    Lynott - I dunno deserves a memorial of sorts and would have one if he was from a US City. Stephen Gately , I can't see as a cultural icon like Count John McCormac -but that could be just my musical taste.

    Then I cant see why we have a Molly Malone statue and no Peg Woffington- who was the real deal.


  • Options
    #95
    Blisterman
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    CDfm wrote: »
    Like the Queens speech in Britain , monuments are passe and hold little power or sway these days other than weak connections with the past.

    I would disagree with that. The Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC is very moving. You descend down a gentle slope cut into the ground. Until you're deep in the crevice. There's an overwhelming number of names engraved on the walls. It's impossible to visit it and not feel moved.

    vietnam_war_memorial_2.jpg
    lin0-029.jpg


  • Options
    #96
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I am not saying they can't be moving but I can walk thru the Fusiliers Arch/Traitors Gate in Stephens Green and be ambivalent. To me its a historical artifact and does not have a wow factor.

    I am left unimpressed by Leinster House as a seat of power.

    I can see how they may have impressed a previous generation ,except, it does not work for me and I suspect I am not alone. Like the Sean Russel statue for me will always mean "nazi".

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Blisterman wrote: »
    I would disagree with that. The Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC is very moving. You descend down a gentle slope cut into the ground. Until you're deep in the crevice. There's an overwhelming number of names engraved on the walls. It's impossible to visit it and not feel moved.

    I agree. The korean war one is also very effective.
    135132.jpg


  • Options
    #98
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    Fascinating thread. As a Brit who lives here I see no issue with junking Imperialist statues, although I do think memorials honouring war dead should be left alone (it doesn't matter if they only fought because of poverty or whatever - they fought, they died, show some respect to them even if you don't approve of the cause; war dead in the UK generally fought for similar reasons). Most Victorian statues are bloody ugly anyway.

    One thing; an earlier poster said the Brits don't put up statues to those who opposed them; not so, there's a statue to Gandhi in Tavistock Square, and a statue to George Washington off Trafalgar Square. There are probably others but they're two I happen to know about.


  • Options
    #99
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    dpe wrote: »
    Fascinating thread. As a Brit who lives here I see no issue with junking Imperialist statues, although I do think memorials honouring war dead should be left alone (it doesn't matter if they only fought because of poverty or whatever - they fought, they died, show some respect to them even if you don't approve of the cause; war dead in the UK generally fought for similar reasons). Most Victorian statues are bloody ugly anyway.

    One thing; an earlier poster said the Brits don't put up statues to those who opposed them; not so, there's a statue to Gandhi in Tavistock Square, and a statue to George Washington off Trafalgar Square. There are probably others but they're two I happen to know about.
    manchester martyrs,a memorial put up in memory of the irishmen[who killed a policeman] when fighting for irish independence,its in a manchester graveyard


  • Options
    #100
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'd be against the destruction of historic monuments. Theres no point in developing a Taleban mentality.

    As an aside - Phil Lynott is greatly respected here and abroad, particularily in the states, to this day.


  • Options
    #101
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    column.jpg

    Thats down the road from my grandparents house :D Used to climb up there to the top when visiting during the summer, dangerous without no handrails on the stone staircases :eek:

    Thought it was built by Cromwell when I was a kid! :eek:

    Don't believe in destroying anything of historical importance myself, doesn't matter what viewpoint it represents, all part of history's tapestry.

    And many of us are probably descended from what were once opposing peoples & cultures over the many centuries, JD's South East photo blog even has one of my family names on the butchers shop, & an English name as well!!!!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    There is an outstanding statue/memorial to Tom Clarke on Sarsfield Bridge (originaly Wellesley Bridge) in Limerick . The memorial was erected as far as I know when a statue of Vicount Fitzgibbon , who was killed in the charge of the Light Brigade was blown up by the IRA in the 30's.

    It really is an engrossing thread and the more I read it the less black and white the issue becomes (to me anyway). I can completely understand the destruction of imperialist symbols in the early years of our Republic and at the same time be aghast at some of the destruction, the great houses, the records office.At what point does it pass from living memory and become history ?

    What of the vandalisation of World War 1 memorials ? All those thousands of men voluntarily enlisted and died , some for what they believed in, some for the money, some for the adventure. But they were all Irishman and like the R.I.C caught in the sweep of history.

    Elsewhere it was said that Anglo-Irish should not be equated with Irish, now that I do find odd. Why are we so proud of Yeats, Wilde , Goldsmith,Swift Beckett(no problems with statues there) and not of Wellington and co.

    I agree with the poster though on recent place names and street names, it is really one of the most depressing ''mutton dressed as lamb'' aspects of the Celtic Tiger where badly constructed two bed houses at 750K were made more palatable by being called Silverbrook ,Fitzhaven or something Dale or Dell , I thought there was some methodology to place names, but obviously not.


  • Options
    #103
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    This is all so important. Especially these days, even overshadowing the bailout, misappopriation of rescue funds to banks and the budget that looms over us next week.

    Lets knock it all down, starting with Customs House in Dublin, Castletown House, Russborough House, Blackhall Place, Christchurch Cathedral and their ilk. After that start on all the offensive smaller items like memorials to war dead etc.
    Wipe it all clean like it never happened and thatch every roof :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #104
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    Times were very different back then at the start of free state. We also had a very 'dirty' civil war. Some of the things that Irish did to Irish was worse that what the British did. How we hate the British and so easily forget what happened during the civil war. I can understand why no statue was erected of Collins. He was hated by the anti-state supporters. Some of the things the free state army did really surprise me

    In any case its all behind us and we are no getting a few billion from the brits as a bailout of the banks. So we have to be nice to them and smile


  • Options
    #105
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Times were very different back then at the start of free state. We also had a very 'dirty' civil war. Some of the things that Irish did to Irish was worse that what the British did. How we hate the British and so easily forget what happened during the civil war. I can understand why no statue was erected of Collins. He was hated by the anti-state supporters. Some of the things the free state army did really surprise me

    In any case its all behind us and we are no getting a few billion from the brits as a bailout of the banks. So we have to be nice to them and smile

    I don't think anyone has forgotten the bailout and I've already pointed out several times now that there are busts, monuments and museums dedicated to Michael Collins. Some here are talking about him as if he were some underground hero that must be whispered about in dark corners, he probably the most celebrated of the leaders in the war of independence by a long stretch. I would ask any new posters in this thread to start providing some proper historical evidence in future rather than rhetorical devices about thatched roofs and smiles for the EU.


  • Options
    #106
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    JustinDee wrote: »
    This is all so important. Especially these days, even overshadowing the bailout, misappopriation of rescue funds to banks and the budget that looms over us next week.

    Lets knock it all down, starting with Customs House in Dublin, Castletown House, Russborough House, Blackhall Place, Christchurch Cathedral and their ilk. After that start on all the offensive smaller items like memorials to war dead etc.
    Wipe it all clean like it never happened and thatch every roof :rolleyes:

    This is nothing more than emotive nonsense - no one here, if you read the thread, suggested what you are saying. Statutes and specifically dedicated 'memorials' to imperial war heroes or monarchs are not the same as buildings.

    IMO your post reads like a sarcastic troll. Not funny. Not intelligent.


  • Options
    #107
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Times were very different back then at the start of free state. We also had a very 'dirty' civil war. Some of the things that Irish did to Irish was worse that what the British did. How we hate the British and so easily forget what happened during the civil war. I can understand why no statue was erected of Collins. He was hated by the anti-state supporters. Some of the things the free state army did really surprise me

    In any case its all behind us and we are no getting a few billion from the brits as a bailout of the banks. So we have to be nice to them and smile

    You're on the history forum. Who do you think has ''so easily' forgotten about the civil war?

    As for Collins - the Royal Barracks in the Dublin was name changed to Collins Barracks shortly after independence as an honour to the man. So I don't see how forgotten he was as you suggest.


  • Options
    #108
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    the civil war was won by the goverment,only with the help by the british who gave them the guns to do the job,one of the things that is overlooked in irish history


  • Options
    #109
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    MarchDub wrote: »
    IMO your post reads like a sarcastic troll. Not funny. Not intelligent.
    "Troll"? Don't be silly.
    Said monuments etc are there. We'll live. Far more important issues and situations to be worried about than inanimate articles still on the island.


  • Options
    #110
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    getz wrote: »
    the civil war was won by the goverment,only with the help by the british who gave them the guns to do the job,one of the things that is overlooked in irish history

    By secondary schools books maybe but not overlooked by Irish history or historians in any way shape or form.


  • Options
    #111
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    I don't think anyone has forgotten the bailout and I've already pointed out several times now that there are busts, monuments and museums dedicated to Michael Collins. Some here are talking about him as if he were some underground hero that must be whispered about in dark corners, he probably the most celebrated of the leaders in the war of independence by a long stretch. I would ask any new posters in this thread to start providing some proper historical evidence in future rather than rhetorical devices about thatched roofs and smiles for the EU.

    Just to clarify, we have not forgotten about Michael Collins, we have forgotten about what he did to fellow Irish men. ex British army were with him in free state uniforms when he was shot.

    I think people are mixing up War of Independence with the Civil War.

    Check up on 'Noble Six' etc etc, bayoneted by free state solidiers on side of Ben Bulben

    I personally dont think he was a hero, he personally gave away the treaty ports, would not discuss the issue with the rest of Irish Delegation. Irish Delegation was made up of what was preceived as the best Ireland had at the time to reach a treaty. Collins sidelined the others and made this agreement with Churchill.

    Forget about the film, he's no hero. so many people mix hollywood with history


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Just to clarify, we have not forgotten about Michael Collins, we have forgotten about what he did to fellow Irish men. ex British army were with him in free state uniforms when he was shot.

    James Connolly was ex British Army, you're being entirely too simplistic.


  • Options
    #113
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Just to clarify, we have not forgotten about Michael Collins, we have forgotten about what he did to fellow Irish men. ex British army were with him in free state uniforms when he was shot.

    I think people are mixing up War of Independence with the Civil War.

    Check up on 'Noble Six' etc etc, bayoneted by free state solidiers on side of Ben Bulben

    I personally dont think he was a hero, he personally gave away the treaty ports, would not discuss the issue with the rest of Irish Delegation. Irish Delegation was made up of what was preceived as the best Ireland had at the time to reach a treaty. Collins sidelined the others and made this agreement with Churchill.

    Forget about the film, he's no hero. so many people mix hollywood with history

    Listen you're on the history forum. Don't insult posters by charges like this. We know the difference between wars and are certainly not confused - AND - no one with a serious interest in history is paying ANY attention to what is in movies. Get a grip...


  • Options
    #114
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    Listen you're on the history forum. Don't insult posters by charges like this. We know the difference between wars and are certainly not confused - AND - no one with a serious interest in history is paying ANY attention to what is in movies. Get a grip...

    no charges, not my fault people waffling like you

    James Connolly was in British army yes.

    James Connolly was also Scottish, and joined the army cause he had no money. He was based in Dublin. This is were it all started for him. If he never joined the British army he would never have fought for Ireland

    The British army did not go around exploding people like the free state army. free state army did it to make it look like they were planting a bomb. As I said before what the Irish did to Irish during the Civil war was worse than what the Brits did and yet it is all brushed under the carpet and forgotten about. How we talk about William of Orange, Cromwell, the War of Independence, Davitt, Parnell, Land League etc etc. Never Civil War

    Collins was a pleb, even the account of how the IRA killed him shows he was a pleb. Official IRA documents show he did not take cover but stood up straight shooting out in the open.

    James Connolly that has been mentioned was a much better man, and more an Irish man too. even if he was only of Irish extraction


  • Options
    #115
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Jesus H. Christ. mbiking you haven't been on boards long so let me fill you in on the history forum. The purpose of this forum is discussion of historical topics, and it is expected that users make reference to historical facts when expressing opinions. Furthermore when expressing those opinions they should be done in a slightly more thought out manner than everyday conversation. If you can't refrain from making baseless assertions and calling people names like 'pleb' then I must ask you to stop posting in this thread. Mod.


  • Options
    #116
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    apart from "pleb" thing what is not historical fact ??

    What I accused the free state army doing has been documented. I mentioned the noble six for example

    http://www.sligosinnfein.com/Noble-Six-Commemoration.php


  • Options
    #117
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Well the first thing is you claimed the civil war was worse than British occupation. Does that cover the entire history of British rule in Ireland or just a particular year? Did the British black and tans not commit many atrocities too? You also claimed that the civil war has been brushed under the carpet, a cursory search of google, amazon or any library website will tell you that's not the case, and is in fact patently false. Calling one historical figure a pleb because you dislike him and saying another was more of an Irishman cause you like him is not history, its opinion.

    Also; suggesting that people are getting particular wars mixed up or basing their posts on films is rude, unnecessary and does nothing to aid debate, and comments like that should not be made. So those are things you can keep in mind for the future.


  • Options
    #118
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    You're on the history forum. Who do you think has ''so easily' forgotten about the civil war?

    As for Collins - the Royal Barracks in the Dublin was name changed to Collins Barracks shortly after independence as an honour to the man. So I don't see how forgotten he was as you suggest.

    this was said 'Independence' was mentioned as a reply to me, I did not mention Independence, I talked of Civil War.
    Just to clarify, we have not forgotten about Michael Collins, we have forgotten about what he did to fellow Irish men. ex British army were with him in free state uniforms when he was shot.

    I think people are mixing up War of Independence with the Civil War.
    hence my clarification which was not made in a smart way. Did you see me starting to attack other peoples view first?
    Well the first thing is you claimed the civil war was worse than British occupation

    this is what I said alot different from what you said
    Some of the things that Irish did to Irish was worse that what the British did. How we hate the British and so easily forget what happened during the civil war.


    What is British, they had Celts, Vikings, Romans, Saxons, Norman's etc etc. What is British. For example Normans are thought to be settled Vikings with a mix of Celtic etc. They invaded Britian and then ended up in Ireland, this took decades/centuries. Are these British or Norman's. So who invaded us ? What landlords did to tenants, could this be considered Irish doing it to Irish. Who sold out Grattan's Parlimanent, the Irish again. They took bribes. I think we can be very selective in our views
    Furthermore when expressing those opinions they should be done in a slightly more thought out manner than everyday conversation.
    PS take a look at other postings in forum, I dont think they live up to your expectations


  • Options
    #119
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jeez Mbik - you come on here having a go and come up with something like the Noble Six.

    I have never heard of them and maybe if you take the time to put facts down we may learn something.

    So why not give us the opportunity of hearing what you have to say and yourself the opportunity of being taken seriously.


  • Options
    #120
    mbiking123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    Please see http://www.sligosinnfein.com/Noble-Six-Commemoration.php

    It happened during the Civil War
    Brigadier Seamus Devins I believe grandfather of the FF TD Jimmy Devins
    Div. Adj. Brian McNeill
    Capt. Harry Benson
    Lieut. Paddy Carroll
    Vol. Tommy Langan
    Vol. Joe Banks

    gunned down on Benbulben Mountain in September, 1922

    Officially they were gunned down but a brother who since died said he knew they were bayoneted from wounds on the body and no gunshot wounds

    Also told it was British army but they knew it was free state army

    http://sligo32csm.blogspot.com/2010/09/32csm-sligo-noble-six-commemeration.html


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    mbiking123 wrote: »

    gunned down on Benbulben Mountain in September, 1922

    Officially they were gunned down but a brother who since died said he knew they were bayoneted from wounds on the body and no gunshot wounds

    Can you point us to a source regarding bayonetting or is it 'hear-say'?


Advertisement