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SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    ED E wrote: »
    The whole issue with implementing faster technologies is cost, and manpower is a big part of that. So its very relevant.

    Same can be said for any company supplying a service, that's not the point, the point of this thread was to see about every home in Ireland finally getting quality BB. Not the whole ESB lads make this amout and that amount story all over again.

    It's like no matter what anyone tries to do in the Country there's always someone out there that has to drive a dirty nail, begrudgers. If the ESB are going to be able to provide me a quality service BB, then that's good enough for me. Lads having to climb poles and run extra cabling for this service deserve to be paid, like everyone else that's any good at their job, regardless if they are ESB staff or contractors. Enough already.

    There's other Threads about staff and wages if you want to moan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    hallo dare wrote: »
    Same can be said for any company supplying a service, that's not the point, the point of this thread was to see about every home in Ireland finally getting quality BB. Not the whole ESB lads make this amout and that amount story all over again.

    It's like no matter what anyone tries to do in the Country there's always someone out there that has to drive a dirty nail, begrudgers. If the ESB are going to be able to provide me a quality service BB, then that's good enough for me. Lads having to climb poles and run extra cabling for this service deserve to be paid, like everyone else that's any good at their job, regardless if they are ESB staff or contractors. Enough already.

    There's other Threads about staff and wages if you want to moan.

    It would appear you have an axe to grind here, I wasnt moaning. Eircom Field Techs get paid crazy money too. Thats ireland for you. Simply pointing out that it makes no sense for ESB to use their own staff for a more trivial role. They're heavily trained and follow very strict procedures, rightly so, and should be left to maintaining the grid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Regardless of the internal machinations of ESB's union politics and pay rates, the fact remains it has a history of actually getting big, complicated infrastructure rolled out rather effectively and efficiently.

    I would have quite a bit of confidence that ESB could get this network rolled out rather effectively and rapidly once they sign off on a design.

    I was impressed with the speed of Eircom's FTTC rollout once they got rolling. It's the first time I've seen Eircom doing anything on that scale so quickly and effectively. The last time that they were doing something as large as that was probably as a semi-state in the 1980s when they pretty much rebuilt the voice network. Since then, most of the infrastructure just saw incremental updates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    ED E wrote: »
    It would appear you have an axe to grind here, I wasnt moaning. Eircom Field Techs get paid crazy money too. Thats ireland for you. Simply pointing out that it makes no sense for ESB to use their own staff for a more trivial role. They're heavily trained and follow very strict procedures, rightly so, and should be left to maintaining the grid.

    I can't see ESB staff doing any of this to a point. I'd guess that as far as ESB staff would get involved is in disconnection of the lines and safety aspect so the contractors can do the cable installation and such.

    May also be an opportunity that may suit the ESB in replacing many overhead lines as they go along.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I think that is a little to strong hallo dare. Labour and civils make up 75 to 80% of the cost of rolling out Fibre, so ED E is right to point it out.

    This and the other reasons I mentioned (crews already tied up doing electric maintenance and lack of experience with Fibre and telcoms in general) make it unlikely ESB crews will be heavily involved in the FTTH rollout.

    They will need to be somewhat involved as work is going to be done close to power cables, but I guess subcontractors like KN will be heavily involved too.

    SpaceTime is also correct, UPC is now the largest cable company in the world (by customers) and one of the founding members of CableLabs, the developers of the DOCSIS standard and UPC have been leading the development of DOCSIS 3.1 They have been investing massively in R&D


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I was impressed with the speed of Eircom's FTTC rollout once they got rolling. It's the first time I've seen Eircom doing anything on that scale so quickly and effectively. The last time that they were doing something as large as that was probably as a semi-state in the 1980s when they pretty much rebuilt the voice network. Since then, most of the infrastructure just saw incremental updates.

    And I mean no disrespect in this, but part of the reason why it has gone so smoothly is because most of the work isn't been done by Eircom themselves, a great deal of it has been contracted out.

    Even the design of the network and placement of cabs has been done by Chinese engineers from Huawei. Most of the fibre laying and cab installation is being done by KN Networks and other subcontractors. Even a lot of the customer installs are being done by KN.

    Eircom wouldn't have been able to do this themselves, nor do I believe could the ESB (and UPC use KN and others too).


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    For most of the country at least all installs are being done by KNN. Eircom techs are only dispatched if theres a problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    bk wrote: »
    I think that is a little to strong hallo dare. Labour and civils make up 75 to 80% of the cost of rolling out Fibre, so ED E is right to point it out.

    This and the other reasons I mentioned (crews already tied up doing electric maintenance and lack of experience with Fibre and telcoms in general) make it unlikely ESB crews will be heavily involved in the FTTH rollout.

    They will need to be somewhat involved as work is going to be done close to power cables, but I guess subcontractors like KN will be heavily involved too.

    SpaceTime is also correct, UPC is now the largest cable company in the world (by customers) and one of the founding members of CableLabs, the developers of the DOCSIS standard and UPC have been leading the development of DOCSIS 3.1 They have been investing massively in R&D

    Is what you are saying not excatly what i have already said in relation to contractors and minimal involvement from ESB staff?

    ESB have a telecoms dept. that are highly trained and experienced. I'd guess that they would be do the end terminations and have the contractors doing the line running.


  • Registered Users Posts: 41 ixiathor


    I agree this is probably the last chance for us in rural ireland to have any chance of decent broadband. I live c. 4k from my Eircom exchange and can only get 1.75Mb down / 0.2Mb up. No sign of this area ever going to be covered by the eFibre rollout - even Phase 5. Surrounding areas with small size towns (e.g. Enfield) are due to get done in Phase 5 but we look to be out in the cold.

    Even with eFibre our likely speeds will be low, but anything is better than current, although Eircom is at least better than mobile BB, which was costing a fortune with the low caps.

    I live 2km from the old N4 with a continuous string of houses from the N4 in .. ESB poles running alongside. Technically, we are defined as semi-rural.

    I'd like to see Pat Rabbitte actually make this happen for rural Ireland .. would be a novelty to have a promise of 30MBs by 2016 actually delivered. Why allow the same old competitors to rollout out better and better BB in the same old areas ? Make it real for rural Ireland - other countries can do it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,114 ✭✭✭nilhg


    bk wrote: »
    As it will be run across overhead cables, I don't believe there will be any objections.

    Complications could possibly arise, the ESB have a wayleave arrangement with farmers and there is a small payment per pole on your land, if another service is going to be delivered then maybe there is a case for some adjustment of that payment, can't see it being a problem though.

    Physically getting access across the land may be a factor though, we have crops here so putting heavy machinery into fields is probably only feasable after harvest, though something like a quad could possibly be used to drag in cables until the crops grow tall in the spring.

    ESB are well used to working round stuff like that though.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    hallo dare wrote: »
    Is what you are saying not excatly what i have already said in relation to contractors and minimal involvement from ESB staff?

    Sorry, I was responding to your earlier post criticising Ed E comments. You since made another post where we are both in agreement and basically saying the same thing, I just hadn't seen it.
    ixiathor wrote: »
    I live 2km from the old N4 with a continuous string of houses from the N4 in .. ESB poles running alongside. Technically, we are defined as semi-rural.

    I'd like to see Pat Rabbitte actually make this happen for rural Ireland .. would be a novelty to have a promise of 30MBs by 2016 actually delivered. Why allow the same old competitors to rollout out better and better BB in the same old areas ? Make it real for rural Ireland - other countries can do it!

    It pains me to read this. People are going to have to be realistic. Realistically this isn't going to help one off houses strung along a rural road. At least not in the initial phase. In the initial phase this is likely the target the same old places that can already get BB.

    The Minister was BSing as they always do and unfortunately it seems people are believing it.

    Also other countries haven't really made it happen. Other countries aren't as dispersed and rural as Ireland. It is the one off, ribbon development that makes Ireland unique and so much harder to do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The thing is that other countries don't do it. They provide good broadband in villages which is what they're on about when they talk about 'rural broadband' in those contexts.

    I've a lot of connections to France and in rural areas there you get pretty good service in small villages (well ADSL2+ from a cabinet exchange same as in Ireland and you might get FTTC or even FTTH in some towns and definitely in bigger towns/cities) but once you get out into one off housing (and western France has a surprisingly high amount of it) you can really struggle to get decent broadband at all.

    The scenario is almost exactly the same as Ireland to be perfectly honest. In some respects (e.g. mobile broadband and wireless) Ireland's actually quite a lot better!

    The only thing I would say is that at this stage Orange/France Telecom does not have any ADSL (up to 8mbit/s) exchanges still in use and probably have better NGN access to even the smallest rural exchange as there was a lot of state aid put into achieving that. So, in villages you'd typically at least be able to get a 10-24mbit/s ADSL2+ service on NGN.

    Although that being said, I've relatives who can only get voice service as their local exchange (a small Alcatel E10 cabinet pretty much identical gear to what eircom use) has no ADSL service at all! They're relying on ISDN and a 3G dongle!

    They also have this setup where they will declare a low density area (especially with bad mobile coverage) a "zone blanche" (white zone) which means that one of the mobile operators will have coverage only and the rest of the operators' customers can use "F-Contact" a MVNO they're forced to host to provide universal coverage for voice and SMS at least.

    The downside is that F-Contact doesn't have to provide 3G and may not necessarily work for all MVNOs and doesn't support international roaming customers.

    There was also a huge shift in FTTH policy in France in the last few years.
    The original idea was that the state was basically forcing Orange/France Telecom to rollout fibre to the home and it wasn't allowed to consider FTTC (like e-fibre).
    However, the company basically couldn't justify doing it as a lot of French suburban / urban hinterland is very similar to Ireland and quite low density housing with big gardens.

    So, eventually the French regulator's policy changed and allowed FTTC so, Orange is only starting that now really. They concluded that it was costing them 15X more to install Fibre to Home in low density areas than to use FTTC and that the installations were many many times more expensive than installing FTTH in dense urban zones.

    Just all in all, I don't think Ireland's situation is *THAT* different. What's very different is that there's a large % of homes that are basically in scattered / ribbon development and most of the countries that are blazing ahead with broadband don't have anything like that. It's all dense populations.

    France is kind of in-between the two scenarios. As is Britain.

    Many parts of the United States and Canada have Irish-style issues. We tend to look at big cities, but when you start looking at suburban hinterlands and quasi-rural parts of the states, there's a lot of dependence on slow services and WiMax.

    ....

    We need to fix the problem and deal with the situation that we have. But there's going to have to be a large dose of reality too that a significant % of homes in Ireland will need to consider wireless options and the Government needs to also consider state-aiding really decent fibre-backed wireless in quasi-rural and fully rural areas and for dealing with ribbon development.

    We can't really just say OK, they have great broadband in Estonia or Singapore and apply that in Ireland. It won't work simply because of the way our housing is built. That being said, you probably wouldn't really want to live in a dense apartment building in Eastern European style, or in a very high density city like Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul etc.

    Life's about trade offs. You get to live in a big house in a rural setting with great scenery, but it means having a septic tank and mediocre broadband and lots of driving.

    There's no reason why urban areas (right down to quite small towns) however can't have FTTH and ultra fast HFC (and that is happening already). However, loose planning and the laws of physics tend to make reaching every rural home with similar services extremely expensive.

    What we need is an appropriate mix of technologies to solve the problem.

    I am worried that the Government still hasn't got a clue about broadband. The National Broadband Scheme used the wrong technology - UMTS (3G mobile) for example. Fixed wireless technologies like WiMax and even DOCSIS 3.0 over microwave or even UHF links would have possibly made more sense.
    Likewise, they built out a lot of MAN networks in small towns and then couldn't find any customers for them.

    There's a lot of jumping on band wagons going on and I am not really seeing a joined-up, logical, well thought out strategy to deliver decent speeds to everyone. Selection of the right technologies is absolutely fundamental to this and putting future-proof infrastructure in place (i.e. basic stuff like ducts in roads, fibre to transmission mast locations and open access to utility poles)

    We also need a BIG block of spectrum allocated to rural broadband on a technology-neutral basis. It's not good enough to keep allocating measly bits of spectrum and charging huge prices for it for 4G mobile etc. Ireland has unique issues that require a LOT of radio spectrum for broadband and it needs to be made available cost effectively too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭garroff


    Reading the contributions in Boards I am reminded of the start of rural electrification in Ireland at Oldtown Co Dublin on 15 Jan 1947.
    Critics said it was madness to try and bring electricity to rural Ireland. The people would not know how to use it and would fry themselves!!!!

    Nothing changes.
    67 years later the same excuses are being made.
    ESB has built Power stations in Ireland and throughout the world. In Ireland when requested by government ESB built the figure of 8 fibre optic network. When the government want a canal built....call the ESB. Job done.
    Esb staff will look after switch outs, if required. Contractors will run and connect the fibre. If the objectors get out of the way ESB will bring world class BB to rural Ireland. Its our only hope. On with it!!!!!.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    garroff wrote: »
    Reading the contributions in Boards I am reminded of the start of rural electrification in Ireland at Oldtown Co Dublin on 15 Jan 1947.
    Critics said it was madness to try and bring electricity to rural Ireland. The people would not know how to use it and would fry themselves!!!!

    And electrification took 50 years to complete!

    Non of us is saying FTTH wouldn't happen or that it shouldn't happen, it will. Eventually every home in Ireland will be connected to FTTH.

    But just like electrification, it might well take 50 years!

    That is why I'm saying people need to be realistic about rural bb and that we need to find intermediate solutions like Fixed wireless from fibre connected villages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭garroff


    bk the poles and network are already erected!!!.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    bk wrote: »
    And electrification took 50 years to complete!

    Non of us is saying FTTH wouldn't happen or that it shouldn't happen, it will. Eventually every home in Ireland will be connected to FTTH.

    But just like electrification, it might well take 50 years!

    That is why I'm saying people need to be realistic about rural bb and that we need to find intermediate solutions like Fixed wireless from fibre connected villages.

    Well yes it may take a long time and that's a given, but like rural electrification our grandfathers (or ancestors) had a goal and strove towards that goal, we too should have a goal and start putting in place strategies to deal with it.

    In the interim FWA is a reasonable compromise...for those hard to reach areas like Kildare and Meath:) but seriously I can imagine some remote valley in the Reeks having FWA but vast swathes of the country are actually fairly easy to reach be it with fibrewrap or ducting. As others have pointed out the last mile is our biggest problem


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ED E wrote: »
    Another aspect to consider is ESB staff are paid A FORTUNE. For every one ESB lines man you could hire 2.5-3 KNN ones. Much easier to contract out.

    Lets not drag the thread off topic by complaining about ESB staff costs,
    hallo dare wrote: »
    Lets not start bringing this attitude into the thread please. This was set up to talk about ESB Broadband, not salaries.
    Thanks

    Can you please report a post in future if you have a issue, best not to back seat mod.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    garroff wrote: »
    bk the poles and network are already erected!!!.

    Poles yes, but the network isn't. You still need to get someone to go up on the pole and string the fibre along from pole to pole.

    70 to 80% of the cost of rolling fibre out is labour and civils.
    bealtine wrote: »
    Well yes it may take a long time and that's a given, but like rural electrification our grandfathers (or ancestors) had a goal and strove towards that goal, we too should have a goal and start putting in place strategies to deal with it.

    Oh I absolutely agree and I'm delighted that the ESB are doing this and I'm hoping this is the start of what will eventually becoming 100% FTTH.

    I'm just trying to be realistic and let people know the reality of how long this is likely to take.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Lets not drag the thread off topic by complaining about ESB staff costs,



    Can you please report a post in future if you have a issue, best not to back seat mod.

    im not, but i didn't start this thread for to have to listen to the whole ESB wages crap all over again. Simple as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    bk wrote: »
    I'm just trying to be realistic and let people know the reality of how long this is likely to take.

    Yes absolutely this is a key point, all we know so far is that the ESB will be targeting settlements with more than 4000 premises, these are large settlements in the main so "rural" dwellers won't see anything in the near future.

    For anybody interested this is one of the ways of doing fibrewrap : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-TPB5h3sm0


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  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭garroff


    bk....have you seen how the fibre was wrapped around the 38/110kV lines? Not too much pole climbing!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭garroff


    ESB have live line crews that can access pole top of 10/20kV line without switch out.
    I have no doubt that ESB can/will devise a procedure to do the business.

    Yes....it will not be done overnight but it will be done.

    Our rural electrification was started by Siemens (Germany). Our rural BB will probably be built by Poles.

    I have no doubt that as soon as works starts all the ISP's will scream for access and shout about state monopoly!!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You certainly won't be able to automatically wrap fibre around crappy standard electric cable and poles in rural Ireland. That will require crews to do on the backs of cherry pickers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    garroff wrote: »
    bk....have you seen how the fibre was wrapped around the 38/110kV lines? Not too much pole climbing!!!

    I think he's talking the smaller lines, not the high voltage pylons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    ED E wrote: »
    I think he's talking the smaller lines, not the high voltage pylons.

    If we're talking about the "last mile" to apply telecomms terminology then yes but the HV 38/100kv lines will happily use that type of technology but I could be wrong:) and I'll leave that to those more knowledgeable about the ESB distribution network


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The ESB Low Voltage wiring isn't particularly crappy. It's just often insulated quadruplex (four platted wires 3 phases + neutral). I doubt that would be suitable for wrapping as it's not really an even surface.

    In towns, they're also likely to use their own duct network to push fibre through.

    I've seen this kind of process done in France by EDF's subsidiary Axione on low voltage 230/400V distribution lines.

    EDF don't seem to actually wrap the wires like the way they do with high tension lines. Instead, they basically install it like an extra wire run from pole to pole on its own brackets. So, all it really shares is the poles.

    There are some housings added for splitters and splices and stuff, but all in all it was quite neat looking and you really wouldn't notice it at all unless you were specifically looking for it.

    All you see is an extra black wire below the electricity cabling.

    There's also an issue that ESB need to be able to access LV lines to make connections and for maintenance.

    On medium voltage 20kV and 38kV lines, they'll probably wire wrap it similarly to the way they do it on high voltage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭garroff


    Also in rural location most houses are near 10/20kV lines which are high neat and tidy.
    When fibre reached the ESB transformer then things are trickier but voltage is lower and in most cases wires are OBC (INSULATED BUNDLE CONDUCTOR).
    Look....we can talk about difficulties and snags until the cows come home. ESB are not fools. This is not new technology. ESB have a procedures department and they will not be long in devising a safe and sure method of getting fibre attached to oh networks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Manc Red


    Is there a list of locations available yet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    Manc Red wrote: »
    Is there a list of locations available yet?

    No it's not even officially announced yet...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭garroff


    How soon before the first objection?........
    I really shouldn't.....


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