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United States of Europe...is it time?

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124

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    #92
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    tuxy wrote: »
    is this a situation where some who think the EU have too much power are complaining the EU has not done enough because they do not have enough power?

    In most cases where where the most ardent critics are complaining, it is usually both.

    Schrodinger's immigrant lives in Schrodinger's EU!


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    #93
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/calls-for-corona-bonds-met-with-familiar-nein-a-6eb0e5ce-fddd-4909-95bb-ae8421ef3d2e

    A good article summarising the Eurobonds debate.


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    #94
    Firblog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,979 ✭✭✭Firblog


    completedit wrote: »
    Europes aim was never to just be a trading bloc. The original.plan was a social and culturally integrated Europe. The trading was just the pathway to later integration.

    Whatever your view on this, saying that Europe has evolved to become something it didn't plan to be is just wrong.

    Only way EU can work is by more Europe. In its current form, it's broken and largely pointless.

    What do you mean by 'Europes aim' that '.... it didn't plan' Europe is a land mass it cannot aim or plan, people do that. Where did you read the original plan, who came up with it? how far into the future was it for? are we behind schedule? is it available for general viewing?


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    #95
    The Great Gatsby
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭The Great Gatsby


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Would rather Trump to invade and claim Ireland.

    Yes. Agreed . . . that would actually be the lesser of the two evils!


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    #96
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Weird to see this discussion taking place - when previously there were so many Europhiles, that it was impossible to discuss any EU level reforms, like Eurbonds (coronabonds now), without being mobbed by them.

    People need to remember that the EU is here, in part to stop the continent knocking the shite out of one another - and dragging the rest of the world into that - like before. We also need a bulwark against Russia.

    You don't want to break up the EU. You want to either fix/shim the parts of it that aren't working - or roll back only those specific parts.

    Principally, that is the Euro. We need to fix/shim it with Eurobonds or the like, until far in the future when federalization can happen - or we want to roll it back, maybe just in part (keep the Euro as an exchange currency, reintroduce national currencies), or in whole (go fully back to national currencies).

    The EU and ECB in particular, has stretched itself thin from the last economic crisis - so it's pretty much make or break time, with this current crisis. Something is going to give - countries will need to regain Keynesian stimulus without Austerity - or something is going to break (the Euro, maybe the EU).


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    #97
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,872 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The ECB can print whatever quantity of money it wants. In an era of zero to negative interest rates, the normal rules of economics no longer apply. What are investors going to flee to - the US dollar? when they're printing like crazy?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #98
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The ECB can print whatever quantity of money it wants. In an era of zero to negative interest rates, the normal rules of economics no longer apply. What are investors going to flee to - the US dollar? when they're printing like crazy?

    Krugerrands.


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    #99
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/calls-for-corona-bonds-met-with-familiar-nein-a-6eb0e5ce-fddd-4909-95bb-ae8421ef3d2e

    A good article summarising the Eurobonds debate.

    Germany will never sign up to the transfer of it's money to the med bloc.

    They refused point blank in the financial crisis and they won't be doing it now either.

    German voters won't accept it.


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    #100
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,872 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I dunno, times have changed and German voters have seen the adverse effects of overly tight financial policy over the last decade or so

    They are looking at a generation being squeezed by job insecurity and rapid rent inflation same as we are, and like here they are not at all happy about it.

    The WWII generation have almost all passed, 1920s hyperinflation is long forgotten and really, if the ECB targets and hits 3 or 4% inflation instead of targeting 2% (and hitting close to zero) is it a problem? No.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #101
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,454 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Germany will never sign up to the transfer of it's money to the med bloc.

    They refused point blank in the financial crisis and they won't be doing it now either.

    German voters won't accept it.


    Germans were not keen on "bailing out" places like Greece that were reckless. They might go for an EU CoronaBond, as the disease is not as a result of "non German" policies.


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    #102
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Germans were not keen on "bailing out" places like Greece that were reckless. They might go for an EU CoronaBond, as the disease is not as a result of "non German" policies.

    Imagine if we were asked to accept that we would have to pay a portion of Greek, Italian and Spanish welfare programs and pensions.

    What they want with this stunt is to be able to borrow money leveraging Germany's ultra low interest rates (which Germany has because of it's fiscal discipline).

    But when you do that interest rates may go down for Italy and Greece...but they will go up for Germany and the core.

    So when all these countries get in to serious trouble again the contagion will be 10 times worse than the financial crisis in 2010. It would spread like wildfire. It won't be just Greece to Italy to Spain - it will be Italy direct to Germany.

    Why in the name of god would they do that to themselves? To back up countries that simply refuse the most basic reforms and to live within their means?

    They won't be tricked in to it through crisis either.

    Madness.


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    #103
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,087 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    I'd be in favour of a much stronger EU following this crisis. There's huge opportunity for a centralised budget process, harmonised tax rates, strategic investment in pan-European infrastructure, a more streamlined approach to agricultural policy, and a myriad of other opportunities for closer harmonisation. It would also be a bulwark against the worrying rise of nationalism across Europe.

    If it wasn't for the dreaded existence of nationalism you would still be living under the British thumb. If you want to be ruled by Germany so badly go live in Germany.

    It's people like you who would probably have been collaborating with the British back in the day.


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    #104
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    KyussB wrote: »
    Weird to see this discussion taking place - when previously there were so many Europhiles, that it was impossible to discuss any EU level reforms, like Eurbonds (coronabonds now), without being mobbed by them.

    People need to remember that the EU is here, in part to stop the continent knocking the shite out of one another - and dragging the rest of the world into that - like before. We also need a bulwark against Russia.

    You don't want to break up the EU. You want to either fix/shim the parts of it that aren't working - or roll back only those specific parts.

    Principally, that is the Euro. We need to fix/shim it with Eurobonds or the like, until far in the future when federalization can happen - or we want to roll it back, maybe just in part (keep the Euro as an exchange currency, reintroduce national currencies), or in whole (go fully back to national currencies).

    The EU and ECB in particular, has stretched itself thin from the last economic crisis - so it's pretty much make or break time, with this current crisis. Something is going to give - countries will need to regain Keynesian stimulus without Austerity - or something is going to break (the Euro, maybe the EU).
    shim?


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    #105
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,664 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Germany will never sign up to the transfer of it's money to the med bloc.

    They refused point blank in the financial crisis and they won't be doing it now either.

    German voters won't accept it.

    And it's precisely why the goal of the EU as a single political entity or federal state of former nations is fundamentally flawed.

    National interest will always trump the supposed bigger EU picture. That, and Europe simply isn't a single cultural mass of peoples separated by artificial borders. It's a grouping of individual nations with their own culture, language, history and traditions, and views on what is right, wrong, or acceptable - most of which value that individuality extremely highly.

    You'll never get Germans willingly paying for "reckless" Italians, or Greeks supporting German-led austerity precisely because they AREN'T and never will be the same people.

    Just as here in Ireland, where the majority fall over themselves in support of the EU - particularly the political set where it's the ultimate gravy train for them - it's really just an abstract theory. We are Irish first, then probably Dubs, Corkonian or whatever, then linked by GAA affiliation.
    Being "European" is a fair bit down that list and only in vague terms of cheap flights, no currency exchange for the 2 weeks in Spain in the summer, and so on.

    Unless that fundamental point - asking the people of Europe to consider themselves European over their national identity and heritage - somehow changed (which is virtually nil because it's a false concept) , the EU "project" will never succeed, and forcing it will only speed its demise and increase the likelihood of a messy and potentially violent dissolution in the end.


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    #106
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    ^^^Right on, brother!!!


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    #107
    NSAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,386 ✭✭✭NSAman


    And yet more Italian discontent...

    http://Italian PM: EU could fail over coronavirus pandemic https://jrnl.ie/5070620


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    #108
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    The people for "more EU" probably think that one government with one president would be better to control us all.

    This isn't the trade union Ireland and others signed up for.
    This is more and more becoming Yugoslavia only with carrots instead of sticks.


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    #109
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    biko wrote: »
    The people for "more EU" probably think that one government with one president would be better to control us all.

    This isn't the trade union Ireland and others signed up for.
    This is more and more becoming Yugoslavia only with carrots instead of sticks.

    Everything that the EU does we have signed up for because WE ARE THE EU.:rolleyes:


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    #110
    Mav11
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭Mav11


    Groucho Marx once said "I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER."

    Witnessing the narrow, mean mindedness of some of the member states, particularly the Dutch and their propensity to lecture other members in their time of despair on financial prudence, I wonder is this a club, with members such as this that I would want to join or stay in?????


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    #111
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Mav11 wrote: »
    Groucho Marx once said "I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER."

    Witnessing the narrow, mean mindedness of some of the member states, particularly the Dutch and their propensity to lecture other members in their time of despair on financial prudence, I wonder is this a club, with members such as this that I would want to join or stay in?????

    Thankfully the thin-skinned like yourself don't get to unilaterally make that choice.


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    #112
    Mav11
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭Mav11


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Thankfully the thin-skinned like yourself don't get to unilaterally make that choice.

    Attack the post not the poster please!


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    #113
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,872 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Biko you are aware that every treaty change affecting Ireland has been approved by referendum?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #114
    PyreOfHellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭PyreOfHellfire


    Love the EU.


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    #115
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Considering the attitudes of Holland, Germany, Finland and Austria in recent days unless they soften their position the EU as a body is in danger of breaking up.


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    #116
    Humberto Salazar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Humberto Salazar


    Same old federalist nonsense. Any US of Europe would be subject to Franco German hegemony. And we know that is simply unacceptable to most other members. The unfortunate treaties we voted on, are simply a confirmation of the French and German dominance. The EU needs reform from the top down.


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    #117
    Mav11
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭Mav11


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Considering the attitudes of Holland, Germany, Finland and Austria in recent days unless they soften their position the EU as a body is in danger of breaking up.

    Absolutely agree. The culture and values of these member states is completely at odds with our values, which is to help and assist. If you remember they took to lecturing us as well, when we were forced to bail out the German bondholders.


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    #118
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    PyreOfHellfire wrote: »
    Love the EU.

    Thanks for that vote of confidence, Ursula.


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    #119
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Mav11 wrote: »
    Attack the post not the poster please!
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Considering the attitudes of Holland, Germany, Finland and Austria in recent days unless they soften their position the EU as a body is in danger of breaking up.
    Humberto Salazar wrote: »
    Same old federalist nonsense. Any US of Europe would be subject to Franco German hegemony. And we know that is simply unacceptable to most other members. The unfortunate treaties we voted on, are simply a confirmation of the French and German dominance. The EU needs reform from the top down.
    Mav11 wrote: »
    Absolutely agree. The culture and values of these member states is completely at odds with our values, which is to help and assist. If you remember they took to lecturing us as well, when we were forced to bail out the German bondholders.

    * backs out of thread *

    Jesus.


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    #120
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Mav11 wrote: »
    Absolutely agree. The culture and values of these member states is completely at odds with our values, which is to help and assist. If you remember they took to lecturing us as well, when we were forced to bail out the German bondholders.
    The finger wagging by the Germans and their allies has already started.
    Italy may be the catalyst to start the breakup. Italians were already wary of the EU due to the economic crash, the early days of this crisis in Italy demonstrated the lack of EU solidarity. The Russians and Chinese sending aid to Italy galvanised the EU into action but I suspect damage to the European project in Italy has already taken a firm hold.


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    #121
    Mav11
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭Mav11


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    The finger wagging by the Germans and their allies has already started.
    Italy may be the catalyst to start the breakup. Italians were already wary of the EU due to the economic crash, the early days of this crisis in Italy demonstrated the lack of EU solidarity. The Russians and Chinese sending aid to Italy galvanised the EU into action but I suspect damage to the European project in Italy has already taken a firm hold.

    Would have thought that it was the Dutch and Fins leading the way on the finger wagging. The Dutch finance minister was forced to apologise for some of his comments during the week.

    Must say even as an ardent Europhile, I'm finding these hard to swallow.


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