Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 10:48pm

The RC philosophy - as long as you are not caught - all is good.
As long as it doesn't happen in Ireland, (i.e. playing your rugby or abortion) we can keep our pious holier than thou hat on. :rolleyes:

BBDBB · 12-04-2018 10:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Same here, men like Sexton, Carbery & Cronin who treat their wives and girlfriends with respect.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/rising-irish-rugby-star-joey-carbery-and-girlfriend-robyn-enjoy-couples-trip-in-dubai-36783899.html

Jackson and Olding are not men, they are boys who have yet to grow up and learn respect for other people. They do not deserve to wear the Irish jersey again.

that final two lines dont make logical sense

they're boys who need to grow up and learn respect

so once they've done that haven't they earned the right to wear that jersey again?

Are we really going to punish people for the rest of their career for mistakes made when you are young??

Jeez, I wouldn't like to be judged for some of the decisions I made back when I was younger, less worldly, less experienced. Id convict myself if I was being judged by how I was back then, the things I did and said by modern standards wouldn't pass muster. Does that make me a terrible person? I used to be an arsehole but life gave me experience and I learned a few lessons along the way

Muahahaha · 12-04-2018 10:50pm

Je suis le Mob :cool:

66% of the Irish public dont want them in an Irish jersey again. Let the Ulster lads have them back if they can handle lowering the standards of their club that much that they take the self proclaimed "legends" back. Luckily for the rest of us Joe Schmidt is one of the most intelligent rugby managers in the world and will not be having them within an asses roar of another Irish cap. The Irish public wouldnt stand for it, Joe knows it, the IRFU know it and the sponsors know it.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 10:50pm

Stheno wrote: »

This is where i have a conflict.

Im from the south but have literally spent years working in the north.

Its a different society and still mired in the past to an extent and very socially conservative.

That will go against the players.

Very interesting Stheno.

In an ideal world i hope they play for Ulster and Ireland again and grow up. But i think a certain time period of a break is needed to rehabilitate them as men.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 10:54pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Je suis le Mob :cool:

66% of the Irish public dont want them in an Irish jersey again. Let the Ulster lads have them back if they can handle lowering the standards of their club that much that they take the self proclaimed "legends" back. Luckily for the rest of us Joe Schmidt is one of the most intelligent rugby managers in the world and will not be having them within an asses roar of another Irish cap. The Irish public wouldnt stand for it, Joe knows it, the IRFU know it and the sponsors know it.

I don't believe it will happen but..

if the 2 lads walked straight onto the Ulster team without a word. What does that say to society today? And in particular young men?

Women are not equal to men. You use them for sex when you can. Most of them are sluts. As an elite sports person you can speak about women whatever way you want. Certain people are privileged.

Muahahaha · 12-04-2018 10:54pm

BBDBB wrote: »

Are we really going to punish people for the rest of their career for mistakes made when you are young??

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

tritium · 12-04-2018 10:55pm

joe40 wrote: »

I would actually agree with that, but the thing is that advice is given all the time. Parents give that advice to their kids, schools give loads of advice around dangers of alcohol and drugs and the likelihood of high risk behavior including sexual behaviour that you may regret. Boys and girls are told this constantly.
Linking behaviour advice to actual events is problematic, it is never the victims fault in any crime.
Comparing this to road safety is not a valid comparison, you are responsible when trying to minimise accidents. Crime including rape is never an accident.

I never linked this to a crime. Whether we like it or not there was technically no crime here. At the end of this non- crime there are however five victims all of whom believe they told the truth and were wronged. That’s not really a great outcome is it?

Well and good saying it’s given all the time. Why isn’t it working so. Why are so many young men and women getting smashed and doing dumb things? And oddly it’s the same dumb things the generation before did. Maybe we should try the message a different way?

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 10:56pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RC philosophy - as long as you are not caught - all is good.
As long as it doesn't happen in Ireland, (i.e. playing your rugby or abortion) we can keep our pious holier than thou hat on. :rolleyes:

You're dying to have a cut off the RC Francie but you won't mention Puritanism at all? Easy target. And this invisible 'mob', easy target.

This has NOTHING to do with abortion.

joe40 · 12-04-2018 10:57pm

I have been told that Ulster rugby club would have quite a strong "christian ethos" I'm not sure if that is true don't follow rugby that closely.

Wrongway1985 · 12-04-2018 10:58pm

Faugheen wrote: »

These men are two public figures and their conduct is held to a higher standard (rightly or wrongly) than the average Joe Soap. What was meant to be a private conversation got out in public because they left a woman distressed, bleeding and in hysterics.

That is all their fault. No one else.

Spot on, all for them returning to their lives with accusation not proven in court. These lads however were essentially bragging about a gang bang with a 19yo not a good outlook, what credible brands would want association with these fellas for instance??

BBDBB · 12-04-2018 10:58pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

I never realised we must stop learning at 21

after that

no more education,

by 21 all lives lessons must be learned and ingrained as behavioural patterns

tretorn · 12-04-2018 10:58pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

Olding was twenty two, just saying.

Stheno · 12-04-2018 10:58pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Very interesting Stheno.

In an ideal world i hope they play for Ulster and Ireland again and grow up. But i think a certain time period of a break is needed to rehabilitate them as men.

And this is where i have that conflict.

Im in my forties and twenty years ago worked in an environment that was male dominated and primarily male dominated. You now would not believe some comments that were laughed at that now would be grounds for a very large payout.

I spoke to a conservative male colleague from the north a couple of days into the trial after the texts came out and he was horrified.

But these guys have lost two years of their lives and huge reputational ldamage.

I got fired once due to a mistake i made and it literally took me years to undo it.

Do these guys not deserve a chance? I genuinely dont know

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 10:59pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

You're dying to have a cut off the RC Francie but you won't mention Puritanism at all? Easy target. And this invisible 'mob', easy target.

This has NOTHING to do with abortion.

It doesn't have anything to do with abortion but it does have to do with the same hypocrisy.
It is ok if you play rugby outside the country, that makes us all feel righteous and pure. :rolleyes:

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:01pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they were 17 or 18 that would hold. But they were 24 when this happened. In society we celebrate 21st birthdays as a coming of age, i.e. you are an adult now. They were well past 21, this "they are only young lads" argument does not wash, they are more than old enough to be responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

Exactly. And Craig Gilroy is about 27 now, made his Ireland debut in 2012. They're not chaps. His messaged was one that sounded like one only a complete knob would send.

They are not 17/18 is right, a good kick up the ar*e would serve them all, if they concentrated on their provincial rugby and winning something it would be more in their line.

And anyone who considers themself an athlete and consumes, whatever, 23 drinks on a night out... That's not an athlete..

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:02pm

joe40 wrote: »

I have been told that Ulster rugby club would have quite a strong "christian ethos" I'm not sure if that is true don't follow rugby that closely.

Certain players would and the South African influence.

meeeeh · 12-04-2018 11:04pm

BBDBB wrote: »

Are we really going to punish people for the rest of their career for mistakes made when you are young??

Normally no, but you are not entitled to a career that so heavily rests on adulation of the fans. It's a career that is richly rewarded but also precarious. A talent is worth very little if you can't monetize it. Nobody is overly worried where the other two work or will work but they don't need an approval of the masses to do their job.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:04pm

tretorn wrote: »

Olding was twenty two, just saying.

Twenty two. Many men had started rearing a family at that age.

Though i think Olding is the best of the lot of them. Only my opinion but i find the other fella very arrogant.

BBDBB · 12-04-2018 11:05pm

Stheno wrote: »

And this is where i have that conflict.

Im in my forties and twenty years ago worked in an environment that was male dominated and primarily male dominated. You now would not believe some comments that were laughed at that now would be grounds for a very large payout.

I spoke to a conservative male colleague from the

narcolepsy

its a terrible condition to live with

Stheno · 12-04-2018 11:05pm

BBDBB wrote: »

narcolepsy

its a terrible condition to live with

I woke up

joe40 · 12-04-2018 11:06pm

tritium wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

I would actually agree with that, but the thing is that advice is given all the time. Parents give that advice to their kids, schools give loads of advice around dangers of alcohol and drugs and the likelihood of high risk behavior including sexual behaviour that you may regret. Boys and girls are told this constantly.
Linking behaviour advice to actual events is problematic, it is never the victims fault in any crime.
Comparing this to road safety is not a valid comparison, you are responsible when trying to minimise accidents. Crime including rape is never an accident.

I never linked this to a crime. Whether we like it or not there was technically no crime here. At the end of this non- crime there are however five victims all of whom believe they told the truth and were wronged. That’s not really a great outcome is it?

Well and good saying it’s given all the time. Why isn’t it working so. Why are so many young men and women getting smashed and doing dumb things? And oddly it’s the same dumb things the generation before did. Maybe we should try the message a different way?

Sorry I wasn't referring to this case or your post at that stage I was just talking about crimes in general, whether unprovoked attacks or sexual crimes. Typing on a phone is a pain and quite slow so may not have expressed myself properly.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:07pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Twenty two. Many men had started rearing a family at that age.

Though i think Olding is the best of the lot of them. Only my opinion but i find the other fella very arrogant.

Of course no married man would ever disrespect a woman or do anything stupid or make a mistake.

Grayson · 12-04-2018 11:08pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

The easy way out is 'the mob'. The pro Jacko crowd are a 'mob' too.

People are entitled to judge whether these men are mysogynistic blackguards who aren't fit to represent their country.

Children imitate these guys so much. You need some sort of standards.

Yeah 60% of the country are a mob.. BS. And the 30-40% are enlightened..

I believe the other phrase that was used was feminazi's. So 60% of the country are feminazi's

Strangely I don't think anyone had labeled the players supporters. Whereas the players supporters have tried to label everyone who disagrees with them.

mfceiling · 12-04-2018 11:10pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Twenty two. Many men had started rearing a family at that age..

And many hadn't.
My father started his family at 23. Me at 30. My brother at 38. My neighbour at 18.

What's the point again? Oh yeah....something, something you are an adult at 21 and should have made all your mistakes by then.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:10pm

Grayson wrote: »

I believe the other phrase that was used was feminazi's. So 60% of the country are feminazi's

Strangely I don't think anyone had labeled the players supporters. Whereas the players supporters have tried to label everyone who disagrees with them.

I don't think any of the players supporters have taken to the streets trying to undermine the verdict of a jury in another jurisdiction. #ibelieveher

Mob, is a perfect description.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course no married man would ever disrespect a woman or do anything stupid or make a mistake.

Well if he had a young child to be fed it might knock some of the urge to be with the best mate every minute of the day.

I'm making the point 22 is old enough to have cop on.

Grayson · 12-04-2018 11:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course no married man would ever disrespect a woman or do anything stupid or make a mistake.

If a married man hurt his wife so much that the bed was covered in her blood and she ran away in tears. And then joked about it the next day I'd call him a cnut. And I wouldn't call what he did a "mistake".

Ah but that's perfectly acceptable to you. You hear that and think "give that man a job".

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:12pm

mfceiling wrote: »

And many hadn't.
My father started his family at 23. Me at 30. My brother at 38. My neighbour at 18.

What's the point again? Oh yeah....something, something you are an adult at 21 and should have made all your mistakes by then.

The point is at 22 your old enough to have cop on. He was being referred to as only 22.

Muahahaha · 12-04-2018 11:13pm

BBDBB wrote: »

I never realised we must stop learning at 21

after that

no more education,

by 21 all lives lessons must be learned and ingrained as behavioural patterns

Well I never said any of what you are saying above. What I am saying is that if you have not learnt how to respect women by the age of 21 then that is on them. They went to the best schools and have good parents yet still they behaved like children. If Jackson and Olding were horny teenagers of 17 or 18 then there is some leeway for them. But at 24 (22 in Oldings case as Tretorn pointed out) they no longer have the defence of being giddy teenagers. Your argument is actually identical to Willie McBrides yesterday "ah sure they are only young lads"- at what point do you expect them to behave appropriately towards women- is 26 okay for you or should we allow them to be derogatory towards women until they are 30 because "they are only young lads"? If they havent grown up by 22/24 then chances are they never will. I feel sorry for the shame they have brought on their parents, there is no way they brought them up in this way.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:15pm

Grayson wrote: »

If a married man hurt his wife so much that the bed was covered in her blood and she ran away in tears. And then joked about it the next day I'd call him a cnut. And I wouldn't call what he did a "mistake".

Ah but that's perfectly acceptable to you. You hear that and think "give that man a job".

Fed up dealing with hysterical sensationalism about this case. I'll just ignore it from now on Grayson.

Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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