Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

1…102103104105107

Comments

  • #3182
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    Nobody, not even me are "squeaky clean". Of course I've made mistakes

    Have I ever had a gang bang and bragged to the lads about it using degrading language?... No can't say I have
    Exactly. Nobody suggested anywhere that anyone is squeaky clean or never made a mistake. This is obviously not just a mistake either. Dishonest bollox.


  • #3183
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    Nobody, not even me are "squeaky clean". Of course I've made mistakes

    Would you expect to be hounded out of your job for those 'mistakes'?

    *What you have done on a night out with other consenting adults is not of relevance really. People do things I wouldn't do, that is no reason to hound them.


  • #3184
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I knew that. You said all were deleted.


    Thats what I understood to have happened. Some were retrived - some they were unable to retrieve. I also recall that when they were asked to go to the police station, some of the lads advised them to leave their phones at home.


    What I don't understand why were the lads trying to hide their text messages?


    Another thing can anyone explain why the Players Union didn't give any support to their members. Its almost like their fellow professionals disowned them.


  • #3185
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    _blaaz wrote: »
    Not to extent of messing was going on here,no


    Yous can defend it all yous want,but id be hoping they give alot of time looking over there shoulder for retribution incoming for their carry on

    Did you ever objectify another woman, have a one night stand?


    I am guessing most people do, and it is always with somebody's son or daughter and commonly with somebody's sister or brother.


  • #3186
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Wadn't a mistake. They'd obviously keep behaving that way if not caught.


  • Advertisement
  • #3187
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Did you ever objectify another woman, have a one night stand?

    Several...but regretably for you....this isnt the issue here??

    I am guessing most people do, and it is always with somebody's son or daughter and commonly with somebody's sister or brother.


    And again...no one is taking issue with the ONS.....why you think they are is beyond me????,....yous have picked up least worst thing of what went on here and are trying (quite poorly) to use it to defend the defensible


  • #3188
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Did you ever objectify another woman, have a one night stand?


    I am guessing most people do, and it is always with somebody's son or daughter and commonly with somebody's sister or brother.
    Who said there was anything wrong with a mere one night stand or objectifying in the non treating them like a piece of meat way? You'd swear the way these guys behaved is the only way to have a one night stand and the only way to objectify someone.

    This is just piss poor.


  • #3189
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Would you expect to be hounded out of your job for those 'mistakes'?

    *What you have done on a night out with other consenting adults is not of relevance really. People do things I wouldn't do, that is no reason to hound them.


    They were 'hounded out' because of the appalling way they treated that young woman. Lets not forget she was a teenager just out of school and she left PJ's house very upset and bleeding. Then in their texts the next day to each other, they spoke of the three girls (one of whom later saved their skin) as sluts.


  • #3190
    jeffleppard
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭jeffleppard


    jm08 wrote: »
    Thats what I understood to have happened. Some were retrived - some they were unable to retrieve. I also recall that when they were asked to go to the police station, some of the lads advised them to leave their phones at home.


    What I don't understand why were the lads trying to hide their text messages?


    Another thing can anyone explain why the Players Union didn't give any support to their members. Its almost like their fellow professionals disowned them.

    Olding and Jackson deleted a few messages
    Mcllroy deleted 5 messages, but these weren't the same ones Olding and Jackson deleted
    Harrison's phone apparently froze up and had to be reset about 2 weeks after Jackson, Olding and McIlroy were arrested, but there was never any proof presented by the prosecution that he deleted any individual messages

    Harrison told McIlroy to leave his phone at home - there was no communication from anyone telling Jackson or Olding to leave their phone at home

    That last part was actually something that jumped out for me - if Harrison was supposed to be 'managing' the situation, then why were there no messages or calls between him and Jackson or Olding at any point (bar the 'spit roast' video to Olding, which only came out after the trial)


  • #3191
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »
    They were 'hounded out' because of the appalling way they treated that young woman. Lets not forget she was a teenager just out of school and she left PJ's house very upset and bleeding. Then in their texts the next day to each other, they spoke of the three girls (one of whom later saved their skin) as sluts.

    She herself called the other girls 'sluts'. She was 19.


  • Advertisement
  • #3192
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Funny how some reckon London Irish told diageo to get fooked....its clearly the other way round.

    Rugger bugger trying to blame alcohol for the Belfast incident now on primetime .....sweet Jesus.


  • #3193
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    She herself called the other girls 'sluts'. She was 19.


    And?


  • #3194
    jeffleppard
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭jeffleppard


    jm08 wrote: »
    They were 'hounded out' because of the appalling way they treated that young woman. Lets not forget she was a teenager just out of school and she left PJ's house very upset and bleeding. Then in their texts the next day to each other, they spoke of the three girls (one of whom later saved their skin) as sluts.

    In their version of events they had a consensual threesome, at least some aspects of which were instigated by her. If that is indeed what happened, what specifically would be appalling about that?

    Again on their version of events, it was the realisation that she had been spotted and possibly filmed by someone that knew friends of hers that caused her to become upset when she left, not anything Jackson et al had done to her.

    The bleeding may have been menstrual based on some of the evidence that was presented at trial - if that was the case, that's hardly Jackson's fault, and Olding and McIlroy didn't vaginally penetrate her so neither of them was the cause of any internal injury if there was one. It was also entirely possible that any internal injury, if there was one, could have been caused by accident during consensual sex, which both medical witnesses agreed with in their evidence.

    Neither Jackson nor Olding actually insulted or even specifically mentioned the complainant on WhatsApp, they used a vulgar term for a threesome and Olding described them as 'top shaggers'. The derogatory language directed at women was all from others in the group.


  • #3195
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Jackson claimed there was no sexual intercourse..... No sex no rape ;)


  • #3196
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Augeo wrote: »
    Funny how some reckon London Irish told diageo to get fooked....its clearly the other way round.

    Rugger bugger trying to blame alcohol for the Belfast incident now on primetime .....sweet Jesus.


    I doubt if Olding had 20+ pints of Guinness!


  • #3197
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »
    And?

    And yourself. The people at that party where not there under duress. What we know is that one person says there was no consent. That person was drunk and went to the house alone and somehow ended upstairs with a man she didn't know, not once, but twice.
    The jury decided there was no evidence worthy of saying that rape occurred.


  • #3198
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Augeo wrote: »
    Rugger bugger trying to blame alcohol for the Belfast incident now on primetime .....sweet Jesus.

    No he didn't. He alluded to the hypocrisy of a company claiming to have 'values' while selling it's product any which way it can.


  • #3199
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No he didn't. He alluded to the hypocrisy of a company claiming to have 'values' while selling it's product any which way it can.

    He did try to blame alcohol, including suggesting that Diageo's products were involved. The disgusting WhatsApp messages were sent the following day, after Jackson and Olding would have sobered up, so alcohol can't be blamed for their misogynistic attitudes.


  • #3200
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    jeffleppard wrote: »
    In their version of events they had a consensual threesome, at least some aspects of which were instigated by her. If that is indeed what happened, what specifically would be appalling about that?

    Again on their version of events, it was the realisation that she had been spotted and possibly filmed by someone that knew friends of hers that caused her to become upset when she left, not anything Jackson et al had done to her.

    The bleeding may have been menstrual based on some of the evidence that was presented at trial - if that was the case, that's hardly Jackson's fault, and Olding and McIlroy didn't vaginally penetrate her so neither of them was the cause of any internal injury if there was one. It was also entirely possible that any internal injury, if there was one, could have been caused by accident during consensual sex, which both medical witnesses agreed with in their evidence.

    Neither Jackson nor Olding actually insulted or even specifically mentioned the complainant on WhatsApp, they used a vulgar term for a threesome and Olding described them as 'top shaggers'. The derogatory language directed at women was all from others in the group.
    The first level headed argument I've seen in defence of them. And I truly hope it was the case.


  • #3201
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    jeffleppard wrote: »
    In their version of events they had a consensual threesome, at least some aspects of which were instigated by her. If that is indeed what happened, what specifically would be appalling about that?

    Again on their version of events, it was the realisation that she had been spotted and possibly filmed by someone that knew friends of hers that caused her to become upset when she left, not anything Jackson et al had done to her.

    The bleeding may have been menstrual based on some of the evidence that was presented at trial - if that was the case, that's hardly Jackson's fault, and Olding and McIlroy didn't vaginally penetrate her so neither of them was the cause of any internal injury if there was one. It was also entirely possible that any internal injury, if there was one, could have been caused by accident during consensual sex, which both medical witnesses agreed with in their evidence.


    Surely if the two lads understood it to be consensual, they might have noticed that the person leaving the house was very upset. Any sort of a decent human being should be concerned about that, particularly if they just had consensual sex together.


    Neither Jackson nor Olding actually insulted or even specifically mentioned the complainant on WhatsApp, they used a vulgar term for a threesome and Olding described them as 'top shaggers'. The derogatory language directed at women was all from others in the group.


    Vulgarity is the least of the issues I'd have with their text messages. I'd have more of a problem with their attitude to women. Eileen Battersby wrote an article in Irish Times where she talked about being in the company of the Munster team (her husband was Munster's Press person), where young women would be actually throwing themselves at the players, but the players were able to restrain themselves and not take advantage of them.


  • Advertisement
  • #3202
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »
    He did try to blame alcohol, including suggesting that Diageo's products were involved. The disgusting WhatsApp messages were sent the following day, after Jackson and Olding would have sobered up, so alcohol can't be blamed for their misogynistic attitudes.

    Are we all not blaming alcohol? Because we should.

    He didn't blame Diageo for what happened, he said alcohol was involved and it was hypocritical of a drinks company to claim to have 'values' given that.


  • #3203
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »






    Vulgarity is the least of the issues I'd have with their text messages. I'd have more of a problem with their attitude to women. Eileen Battersby wrote an article in Irish Times where she talked about being in the company of the Munster team (her husband was Munster's Press person), where young women would be actually throwing themselves at the players, but the players were able to restrain themselves and not take advantage of them.

    Why would Eileen's issue not be with the 'young women' in this scenario?


  • #3204
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No he didn't. He alluded to the hypocrisy of a company claiming to have 'values' while selling it's product any which way it can.

    No Francie....he mentioned alcohol and maybe even diageo products were consumed and contributed to the incident.. Did you even watch it or are you just disagreeing as I'm not a Jackson fanboy :D


  • #3205
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why would Eileen's issue not be with the 'young women' in this scenario?
    Quote marks unnecessary.

    Seems to me she recognises their eejitry.


  • #3206
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,783 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Augeo wrote: »
    No Francie....he mentioned alcohol and maybe even diageo products were consumed and contributed to the incident.. Did you even watch it or are you just disagreeing as I'm not a Jackson fanboy :D

    The context of what he was saying was the hypocrisy of a drinks company having 'values' about this.

    Do you think we would be here if they were all sober?


  • #3207
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are we all not blaming alcohol? Because we should.

    He didn't blame Diageo for what happened, he said alcohol was involved and it was hypocritical of a drinks company to claim to have 'values' given that.

    Why should we blame alcohol?
    FFS would you wake up 😂


  • #3208
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    ....

    Do you think we would be here if they were all sober?

    Yup....quite likely.
    The lads weren't too drunk according to themselves iirc.


  • #3209
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And yourself. The people at that party where not there under duress. What we know is that one person says there was no consent. That person was drunk and went to the house alone and somehow ended upstairs with a man she didn't know, not once, but twice.
    The jury decided there was no evidence worthy of saying that rape occurred.


    I don't think that person was drunk (from what she said she had to drink and testimony of one of the 3 girls).



    As for evidence of rape - there never is. Its one person's word against anothers (or 4 peoples).


    I'd love to know that you think of this bit of conversation:

    Just before noon on June 28th, McIlroy had asked in a message: “What the f*** was going on? Last night was hilarious.” A subsequent message was not recovered, however McIlroy followed that up with: “really f*** sake” and “Did U calm her and where did she live.” Harrison immediately replied; “Mate no jokes she was in hysterics” and “Wasn’t going to end well.”


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/inside-court-12-the-complete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620


  • #3210
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are we all not blaming alcohol? Because we should.

    He didn't blame Diageo for what happened, he said alcohol was involved and it was hypocritical of a drinks company to claim to have 'values' given that.

    "None of it would have happened if alcohol hadn't been involved"

    "I'd wonder how much of Diageo's product was consumed on the night"

    Given the fact that most people can consume alcohol without becoming 'top shaggers' who view a woman they were 'spit-roasting' as being akin to 'a merry-go-round at a carnival', it seems unfair to blame alcohol for Jackson and Olding's actions.


  • Advertisement
  • #3211
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,156 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »
    He did try to blame alcohol, including suggesting that Diageo's products were involved. The disgusting WhatsApp messages were sent the following day, after Jackson and Olding would have sobered up, so alcohol can't be blamed for their misogynistic attitudes.

    Olding testified he had consumed:

    Eight cans of beer, “a few” pints of Guinness, two gin and tonics, five vodka and lemonades, “a few” shots, and a beer.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement