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Irish directed film on James Bulger comes under criticism for humanising the killers

  • 03-01-2019 12:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Detainment is a short film currently being nominated for an oscar about the James Bulger killing directed by Irishman Vincent Lambe. The film attempts to depict the killers in a different light instead trying to humanise them rather than just to present them as 'evil' in the directors own words.

    Not surprisingly the films getting a lot of criticism and its being denounced as insensitive lacking decency.

    He was on Good Morning Britain earlier today and was getting a bit of grilling from the hosts (particularly from Ben Shephard, a guy who gets far too much work on UK TV, he's really boring) for not bothering to get consent from Denise Fergus (James mother) and responded that he knew she would say no. She's going to be on tomorrow to undoubtedly provide a fairly angry response.

    Was this done in bad taste? Plenty of other films about various murders don't often seek permission from family members. But I guess the nature of this one and the sheer brutality of the crime perhaps he should've been a bit more sensitive.

    Likely to do wonders for his career though.



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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Detainment is a short film currently being nominated for an oscar

    Nominations aren't for 3 weeks?

    Anyway, the family have rarely if ever courted any sort of publicity and have dealt with this in a way countless others couldn't.

    I know films about hard hitting subjects need to be made, but this was just so brutal and is something that anyone of a certain age can still vividly recall.

    Seems in poor taste, possibly being done for the shock value. They deserve no more thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Because they are humans.

    This white and black nonsense peddled by the media is bull****.

    Hitler won Times Man of the Year in 1937 for Bringing Germany back from the great depression.

    People are complex. They are not divided into "evil" and "good"

    When 2 children murder another child there's some serious questions that need to be asked and examined and not just lump them into the "evil" pile and move on.

    I welcome this discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,392 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Wish people would drop this "evil" bull****. Like it's an explanation for anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd


    Extremely poor taste.

    The boy was 2 when he was taken and tortured by those 2 animals. What they did was calculated, and cruel in the extreme. They set out that day to take a child for the purposes of what they ended up doing. What they did to James was inhuman. There's no humanising those 2 bastards.

    And Venables continues to offend, has been caught with child porn on more than one occasion. I think he's back inside at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,392 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    gerrybbadd wrote: »
    Extremely poor taste.

    The boy was 2 when he was taken and tortured by those 2 animals. What they did was calculated, and cruel in the extreme. They set out that day to take a child for the purposes of what they ended up doing. What they did to James was inhuman. There's no humanising those 2 bastards.

    And Venables continues to offend, has been caught with child porn on more than one occasion. I think he's back inside at the moment.


    Humans do these things,and a lot worse. It shouldn't be catagorised as being an external force.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Nominations aren't for 3 weeks?

    Sorry oscar-shortlisted, my apologies.

    https://www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/3568419/detainment-vincent-lambe-oscar-film/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    Because they are humans.

    This white and black nonsense peddled by the media is bull****.

    Hitler won Times Man of the Year in 1937 for Bringing Germany back from the great depression.

    People are complex. They are not divided into "evil" and "good"

    When 2 children murder another child there's some serious questions that need to be asked and examined and not just lump them into the "evil" pile and move on.

    I welcome this discussion.

    I have absolutely no hesitation in describing those children now adults as pure scum of the earth and yes they are absolutely evil for brutally torturing a defensless toddler to death in the most horrific way possible which they have never shown an ounce of remorse for so forgive me if I don't follow your advice because the simple fact is they are cold blooded killers who should have rotted in prison for the rest of their lives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Because they are humans.

    This white and black nonsense peddled by the media is bull****.

    Hitler won Times Man of the Year in 1937 for Bringing Germany back from the great depression.

    People are complex. They are not divided into "evil" and "good"

    When 2 children murder another child there's some serious questions that need to be asked and examined and not just lump them into the "evil" pile and move on.

    I welcome this discussion.


    One of the boys threw blue Humbrol modelling paint, which they had stolen earlier, into Bulger's left eye.
    They kicked him, stamped on him and threw bricks and stones at him.
    Batteries were placed in Bulger's mouth
    Finally, the boys dropped a 22-pound (10.0 kg) iron bar, described in court as a railway fishplate, on Bulger.
    He sustained 10 skull fractures as a result of the bar striking his head.
    Dr Alan Williams, the case's pathologist, stated that Bulger suffered so many injuries —42 in total— that none could be isolated as the fatal blow.
    Thompson and Venables laid Bulger across the railway tracks and weighted his head down with rubble, in the hope that a train would hit him and make his death appear to be an accident.
    After they left the scene, his body was cut in half by a train.
    Bulger's severed body was discovered two days later on 14 February
    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Mutant z wrote: »
    I have absolutely no hesitation in describing those children now adults as pure scum of the earth and yes they are absolutely evil for brutally torturing a defensless toddler to death in the most horrific way possible which they have never shown an ounce of remorse for so forgive me if I don't follow your advice because the simple fact is they are cold blooded killers who should have rotted in prison for the rest of their lives.

    But we don't know that though because they've have to live the rest of their lives in secrecy in case of vigilante attacks. No one knows (well in the case of Robert Thompson anyway) what type of adults they are or how they feel.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 255 ✭✭PuppyMcPupFace


    But we don't know that though because they've have to live the rest of their lives in secrecy in case of vigilante attacks. No one knows (well in the case of Robert Thompson anyway) what type of adults they are or how they feel.

    I was in the north of England at the time. I couldn't give one ****e how they "feel" as adults..
    They're sick bastards who should still be locked up


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭valoren


    It's coming up to the 256th anniversary so it will be on people's minds to remember this.
    The film uses transcripts from the police interviews and from what we can surmise then it will be the words of two scared witless boys explaining how and why they murdered a toddler.

    For the most part, we simply see photos of the killers, we listen to descriptions of them. We never hear from them. They most certainly would not be presented sympathetically in the film. The humanising part is the performances of the actors who will let us focus on the fact that these were actually ten year old kids who committed murder.

    In the same vein, I posted in the 'I bet you didn't know that' thread recently about a recording of Hitler speaking in his normal speaking voice. We usually just hear Hitler orating, making impassioned political speeches like a deranged loon. This is done deliberately to maintain the notion that this guy was just an evil mad man which is true and to not humanise him.

    Yet to hear his speaking voice it humanises him in a very disturbing way. You realise this guy was just a man, just like me, chit chatting away absentmindedly to others as if he was just back to work discussing what he'd done over new years while in the throes of death and destruction across the world.

    It's the same here. To watch a short film with two ten year olds talking like ten year olds. The difference being that they talk normally while we know they've committed such a horrible murder. It makes it all the more disturbing that way and I am sure this is the intent of the production.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    You'll have the usual pattern of people defending these evil bastard's, always from the left.

    I seen something a while back about lefties saying paedophiles are another sexual orientation, and how hard it must be to be rejected by society for being a naunce.

    If society ever say's it's ok to be a naunce or child killer then Armageddon has surely arrived.

    They don't belong here, they're sick twisted and need to be all rounded up and strung up by their nuts and bolts....


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    But we don't know that though because they've have to live the rest of their lives in secrecy in case of vigilante attacks. No one knows (well in the case of Robert Thompson anyway) what type of adults they are or how they feel.

    And I for one just don't fúcking care. I'd quite happily strike the match to burn either or both of them at the stake. They are absolute scum and will never, not in a million years, ever be deserving of any shred of sympathy.

    Some things really are black and white.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    But we don't know that though because they've have to live the rest of their lives in secrecy in case of vigilante attacks. No one knows (well in the case of Robert Thompson anyway) what type of adults they are or how they feel.

    I still feel guilty about the time I released a specimen bass and it washed in belly up onto the beach a while after....

    It doesn't matter, they're evil.
    Im sceptical about people who don't see anything otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    There's no lesson to be learned to stop this tragedy happening again if we don't actaully analyse how it happened.

    They were ten.

    Where did they learn violence from.

    Where did they get these ideas from.

    One of the killers asked if they had brought the child to hospital to fix him.

    I'd rather examine it than just wipe it away with evil.

    Of Course some people are too blinded by hate which is the same exact dysfunction that leads to violence.

    Ironic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    But we don't know that though because they've have to live the rest of their lives in secrecy in case of vigilante attacks. No one knows (well in the case of Robert Thompson anyway) what type of adults they are or how they feel.

    Well John Venables has been convicted of downloading child pornography so that says it all really he's a danger to children and should permanently be kept locked away for everyone's sake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Detainment is a short film currently being nominated for an oscar about the James Bulger killing directed by Irishman Vincent Lambe. The film attempts to depict the killers in a different light instead trying to humanise them rather than just to present them as 'evil' in the directors own words.

    Not surprisingly the films getting a lot of criticism and its being denounced as insensitive lacking decency.

    He was on Good Morning Britain earlier today and was getting a bit of grilling from the hosts (particularly from Ben Shephard, a guy who gets far too much work on UK TV, he's really boring) for not bothering to get consent from Denise Fergus (James mother) and responded that he knew she would say no. She's going to be on tomorrow to undoubtedly provide a fairly angry response.

    Was this done in bad taste? Plenty of other films about various murders don't often seek permission from family members. But I guess the nature of this one and the sheer brutality of the crime perhaps he should've been a bit more sensitive.

    Likely to do wonders for his career though.

    Omg. Have Jamie s parents and family not been through enough. Ffs. Now someone dragging it all up again. Without even informing them or asking their permission. New bloody low.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    I care or at least am interested how they turned out. I'm loathed to discard a child at 10 for the remainder of their lives without even the chance of redemption or worse hang them like the mob wanted.
    This doesnt take away from their horrific crime or seek to upset the bulger family.

    They were 10 years old, i feel the blood lust energy of the mob is better spent.

    As it turns out one of them is clearly beyond help the 2nd one hasnt been in trouble since he left care. But is it not better that he lives a life than not?

    For the record i'd hang adult child killers (esp if it was a sexual crime) as they are well beyond the age of reason and are beyond redemption.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    nthclare wrote: »
    You'll have the usual pattern of people defending these evil bastard's, always from the left.

    I seen something a while back about lefties saying paedophiles are another sexual orientation, and how hard it must be to be rejected by society for being a naunce.

    If society ever say's it's ok to be a naunce or child killer then Armageddon has surely arrived.

    They don't belong here, they're sick twisted and need to be all rounded up and strung up by their nuts and bolts....

    Oh stop it.
    Stop using a brutal crime to get a political dig in.

    No one is "defending" them.
    Some people have said rather than dismiss them as "pure evil" we try and understand why they did the horrific things they did - so maybe we can learn to recognise the warning signs and maybe be able to act in time to prevent such horror ever being inflicted on another innocent.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 255 ✭✭PuppyMcPupFace


    There's no lesson to be learned to stop this tragedy happening again if we don't actaully analyse how it happened.

    They were ten.

    Where did they learn violence from.

    Where did they get these ideas from.

    One of the killers asked if they had brought the child to hospital to fix him.

    I'd rather examine it than just wipe it away with evil.

    Of Course some people are too blinded by hate which is the same exact dysfunction that leads to violence.

    Ironic.

    Well kumbayah and all that bollocks.

    Fine, give them extensive therapy. Whilst doing a 30 stretch.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,209 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Hard to criticise a film that you haven't seen. But I always found this murder to be one of the worst I've read. I would definitely not watch the movie, I don't think I could, I don't see the point.
    The wiki article alone is hard enough to read imho.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
    nthclare wrote: »
    You'll have the usual pattern of people defending these evil bastard's, always from the left.
    Come on then, share some of it. I'd like to see all the people defending James Bulgers killers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    kneemos wrote: »
    Humans do these things,and a lot worse. It shouldn't be catagorised as being an external force.

    How is evil an external force?

    This documentary smacks of the cosseted belief that people are always inherently good and if they're not then it must be as a result of some terrible affliction or trauma

    Some people are just evil c***s


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Oh stop it.
    Stop using a brutal crime to get a political dig in.

    No one is "defending" them.
    Some people have said rather than dismiss them as "pure evil" we try and understand why they did the horrific things they did - so maybe we can learn to recognise the warning signs and maybe be able to act in time to prevent such horror ever being inflicted on another innocent.

    So tell me, how many times this has happened in Ireland or England since it happened ?

    The warning signs were there as far as I knew they were not like other kid's, we'd have to delve into a lot of files to filter it out.

    Who's mentioning politics ?

    I know you like challenging me now and again, but this is a different story....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 255 ✭✭PuppyMcPupFace


    Cienciano wrote: »
    Hard to criticise a film that you haven't seen. But I always found this murder to be one of the worst I've read. I would definitely not watch the movie, I don't think I could, I don't see the point.
    The wiki article alone is hard enough to read imho.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger


    Come on then, share some of it. I'd like to see all the people defending James Bulgers killers.

    Read up. "Oh poor babbies, what nasty grown ups made them do it???"

    Bull****.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,113 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Wasn't Venebales caught in N. Ireland after his release downloading child porn?
    What did he learn from all the counsellors in prison? Nothing at all. Evil bastards.

    I'd have backed executing them as soon as they were found guilty of wee Jamie's horrific murder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,392 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Bambi wrote: »
    How is evil an external force?

    This documentary smacks of the cosseted belief that people are always inherently good and if they're not then it must be as a result of some terrible affliction or trauma

    Some people are just evil c***s

    Some people are psychopaths,in fact a lot of people are psychopaths. Doesn't make them "evil"(whatever that is) it means if the circumstances are right they can kill without feeling. It's a human condition.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    There's no lesson to be learned to stop this tragedy happening again if we don't actaully analyse how it happened. .

    There is no lesson to be learned - there always has been and always will be bad, rotten, evil, disturbed, whatever term you want to use, people in the world. It's the human condition - some of us are just no good!

    They were ten.

    Where did they learn violence from.

    Where did they get these ideas from. .

    Who knows, who cares. It has always been that way - it's been blamed on everything from head injuries, to video games right back to witch craft and demonic possession.
    Some people are just cúnts!


    One of the killers asked if they had brought the child to hospital to fix him. .

    So what?
    I'd rather examine it than just wipe it away with evil.

    Of Course some people are too blinded by hate which is the same exact dysfunction that leads to violence.

    Ironic.

    It's not ironic at all.
    Most people have no real problem with violence if they actually stop to think about it. Their problem is with senseless or gratuitous violence.

    All violence is not created equal - giving some junkie trying to rob your grannies hand bag on the street a good kick in the nuts is not the same thing as torturing and killing a toddler!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Wasn't Venebales caught in N. Ireland after his release downloading child porn?
    What did he learn from all the counsellors in prison? Nothing at all. Evil bastards.

    I'd have backed executing them as soon as they were found guilty of wee Jamie's horrific murder.

    Exactly, I see my lad he's 17 now but he is a good lad.
    Always empathic and worried about his younger cousins if they fell over or anyone was sick or hurt.

    He's naturally empathic, still a cheeky moody teen-ager, but he had no malice in him.

    We went fishing one time for wrasse, you use hardback crab's as Bait...

    He was horrified by the thought of it, I said son why don't you like me using crab's for bait...

    Because the quabby will cry.....an innocent kid who didn't like the thought of hurting anyone physically or mentally....

    Sums it up really, some kid's grow out of pulling legs off flies etc others progress onto breaking people's legs....


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    All killers are human and largely a product of their environment so it will be interesting to see what the film has to say


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    kneemos wrote: »
    Some people are psychopaths,in fact a lot of people are psychopaths. Doesn't make them "evil"(whatever that is) it means if the circumstances are right they can kill without feeling. It's a human condition.

    So your contribution to this thread is that you don't understand what the word "evil" means, not that hard to look it up in a dictionary.

    Or I suppose you can go down the beard scratching routine of "but what is "evil" really?"


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