Do landlords in Ireland have it as tough as they think?

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-10-2018 7:29am

Always Tired wrote: »

I've rented in Ireland the past 12 years, 6 different landlords. Every single one of them were awful, every single one at some point breached the regulations put into law in the residential tenancy act, and in most cases, weren't aware/didn't care if there was such laws.

i took one to prtb because, after giving me the boot so they could sell up, they refused to give me the notice period i was entitled to under part 4, which i needed in order to work enough weeks to get the money for a new deposit and to have the time to get something suitable. they literally thought they could put me out with two weeks notice.

came home one day and they had changed the locks with my possessions inside.

they were eventually fined four figures by the prtb. thought he would ever pay it but the day of the deadline i got a check. even sweeter, when they went to sell up they couldn't because of all the things i had asked to be fixed and got fobbed off about, like the mold and damp (you can basically rent a house in any condition now, but not sell one, it's so infuriating as a tenant. and when they can't be bothered to give their places a lick of paint, i've often just done it myself. but then you have to ask them first! to do what they should be doing!).

if you come across a real cowboy, don't think it's a lost cause to go to prtb. don't let them away with stuff, like the illegal rent hikes which are epidemic in Dublin right now.

So let me get this straight, you let slumlords get away with it 5/6 times and the one time you did report it the matter was resolved and the LL fined? Ther only problem with the system I'm seeing here is that you didn't report it the five other times.

pickarooney · 10-10-2018 7:31am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

For whatever reason you've been dealing with slumlords. The vast majority of LL's are properly registered and deal with EFT. The alternative is to give up on various tax allowances and run the risk of being reported to the RTB.

The reason presumably being that he/she's not rich enough to rent from someone who does things by the books. Slumlords will always pray on the least well-off and tenants who don't know their rights.

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-10-2018 7:37am

pickarooney wrote: »

The reason presumably being that he/she's not rich enough to rent from someone who does things by the books. Slumlords will always pray on the least well-off and tenants who don't know their rights.

Well I prefer not to make assumptions, but yes that would be my guess. And I agree with you completely. Those people should be reported to the RTB and prosecuted. The extent to which deatbeat tenants are allowed to get away with it boils my piss, but if there's one species of asshat I'll put above them it's LL's that don't pay tax, especially in this climate.

People like that - not saying he is - should be no where near the private rental market and should be housed by the state.

Brian? · 10-10-2018 8:23am

Some landlords struggle, some don't.

I was landlord by choice, I didn't want to live 55km from work anymore but was in negative equity. Never made a penny from it but payed thousands in tax.

I had the property managed so every tenant got everything they needed as fast as possible. I did some restorative work myself to get things solved quicker for the tenants as well.

Tenant 1: dream tenant for 6 months. Then broke the lease as they had to move for work. No worries.

Tenant 2: Good tenants for 6 months. Rent didn't arrive one month. Agent called up to house. No sign of tenants, no answers to phone calls. House empty. Months rent missed, some cleaning needed.

Tenant 3: Nightmare. Paid rent on time for 3 months. Then missed 2 rent payments with various excuses. Even though they were on rent allowance. Went silent. Served with eviction notice, no reply. Agent entered house and it was like a rubbish tip. All blinds, curtains, beds, couches and fridge needed to be replaced. 3 months lost rent plus cost of cleaning, painting and furniture. Thousands down the drain.

Tenant 4: great tenants for 2 years.Paid on time, left for unknown reasons. For deposit back. Wished them well.

Tenant 5: Paid rent on time. Seemed decent. Served with notice period as we were selling up to buy ourselves. Didn't pay last months rent as they believed deposit covered it. Left the house a mess. Soiled underwear under beds. Vomit on walls. Cost €1500 to clean and paint. No way they would have got their deposit back. I feel nauseous thinking about how they left the place.

Will never, ever be a landlord again. You're entirely at the mercy of the tenant.

MrMusician18 · 10-10-2018 8:28am

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think some landlords in Ireland have a tendency to play the poor mouth. In receipt of the biggest rents in the history of the state, yet they're very vocal about how they're mistreated by the government ect. I get that there needs to be more protection against bad tenants but anyone who has rented has encountered their own share of dodgy landlords too.

I think it grates on people that they're moaning about life during a housing crisis which ultimately benefits them and makes it harder for tenants even on a decent wage. I lived and rented in other countries and currently live in the UK and I have to say the standard of service is far higher in other places. One thing that Irish landlords never seemed to get is the fact that once they rent a property out it's someone else's residence. You don't get to turn up unannounced and walk around.

So to sum up the cool story bro I think that Irish landlords really shouldn't feel like the victims in the housing crisis. Yes some things could work better but as a group they could be doing a lot worse.

No, they don't have it bad. What they have are misplaced expectations, they think they should be able to buy a property with a mortgage and have the rent cover the entire mortgage + expenses otherwise they think they are losing money. It's of course, total nonsense, as it is forgetting that they will have a very valuable asset at the end of the mortgage term essentially paid for by someone else.

Lollipops23 · 10-10-2018 8:42am

My parents let a small flat next to the family home and have been really lucky- tenant always pays on time, she keeps the place beautifully and is generally a lovely person. Because of this, not only do they let the place at about 150 quid below market rate, but they also haven't upped her rent in the 3 years she's lived there.

On the flip side, a good friend let her 4 bed bungalow (built with her ex partner just before the crash) to a foster mother and the parade of kids coming through it. Reckoned she must be a fine upstanding citizen in that game.

Rent was paid on time for the first few months. Then it stopped. When she *eventually* managed to evict her, the entire house had been trashed. Cost her thousands to put it right (inc a new septic tank!!).

There's scumbags on both sides of the fence.

beauf · 10-10-2018 8:42am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No, they don't have it bad. What they have are misplaced expectations, they think they should be able to buy a property with a mortgage and have the rent cover the entire mortgage + expenses otherwise they think they are losing money. It's of course, total nonsense, as it is forgetting that they will have a very valuable asset at the end of the mortgage term essentially paid for by someone else.

Hypothetically. If you have a property worth 1 million or 1 euro and no mortgage. What do you think the rent should be set at.

Graces7 · 10-10-2018 8:44am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

There already are and they are enforced.

But the tenant still is left without the tenancy.

beauf · 10-10-2018 8:45am

beauf wrote: »

Hypothetically. If you have a property worth 1 million or 1 euro and no mortgage. What do you think the rent should be set at.

Also if the govt or local authority builds a property for rental what rent should they set.

Deebles McBeebles · 10-10-2018 9:02am

Brian? wrote: »

Will never, ever be a landlord again. You're entirely at the mercy of the tenant.

And vice versa. You sound like a decent landlord and I've always been a decent tenant. Any house I've rented has been left cleaner than when I moved in. Even the sh*tty, mouldy one.

There are good and bad on both sides of this its just a matter of picking well and a little bit of luck.

Carlos Orange · 10-10-2018 9:03am

Always Tired wrote: »

I've rented in Ireland the past 12 years, 6 different landlords. Every single one of them were awful, every single one at some point breached the regulations put into law in the residential tenancy act, and in most cases, weren't aware/didn't care if there was such laws.

I rented from 8 landlords over 20 years. The worst I ever had to deal with is the guy who thought I missed 1 months rent (sorted it out by going through bank statements together) and the lady who got all paranoid because I forgot to give her back my key when I left (dropped it in the mailbox).

ednwireland · 10-10-2018 9:06am

Zebra3 wrote: »

If landlords have a problem there’s a simple solution.

Sell up and invest your money elsewhere.

Not interested in your whinging.

thats exactly whats happening rental stock has been removed from the market and pushed up rents
(at least thats part of the issue)

Wanderer78 · 10-10-2018 9:07am

Some do, some don't, fairly ****e time to start becoming one

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-10-2018 9:13am

Graces7 wrote: »

But the tenant still is left without the tenancy.

Legislation is in the works for 10 year secure tenancies.

beauf · 10-10-2018 9:16am

ednwireland wrote: »

thats exactly whats happening rental stock has been removed from the market and pushed up rents
(at least thats part of the issue)

More people and not enough new building to match demand.

In general there is more rental stock.
There is less available to rent though.
As people move less, so most of it is full.

LiamoSail · 10-10-2018 9:21am

riemann wrote: »

It is used to describe a poor unfortunate soul who inherited a property suddenly, without warning.

The shock of this sudden increase in capital wealth usually renders said person paralysed to the extent they are unable to ring an estate agent (a mythical creature who only appears on the seventh full moon of a leap year, if its cloudy).

While coping with this noose around their neck that is an extra property, they are forced to rent it out against their will. It is important to note that any rent charged is accidental.

As an accidental landlord they are also not required to maintain the property or keep all the usual utilities in working order. Ceiling falls in? Tough luck mate, your down on their luck host is still coming to terms with the whole situation and just left on a month long holiday for a relaxing break in Las Vegas.

There's countless examples of people who bought 1 bed apartments at the height of things and were subsequently stifled with significant negative equity meaning they couldn't sell.

They then had families and no option other than to rent out their 1 bed and rent a family home. Between the tax on rental income and the rent they were paying themselves, they're significantly worse off.

I really feel sorry for these people. They did what they thought they had to do, getting on the ladder etc. They took the huge losses and continue to do so through the income tax they pay on rent received and mortgage payments leaving a significant deficit on their rent due.

seamus · 10-10-2018 9:23am

It's an expectations problem.

Many small time landlords don't run it like a business, they instead consider it more like a guesthouse. Thus when they have crappy tenants, rather than consider it a contract gone bad, clean it up and get on with it, they take personal offence.

There are too many people in the business of renting houses who are there to speculate on property prices, not to provide a service or make money on rental income. They saw themselves as wiley tycoons, retiring at 50 with a few million euro in assets to sell. These people need to be gutted from the market.

Hint: If you can't afford the mortgage on your rental property without the rent, you can't afford a rental property.

cruizer101 · 10-10-2018 9:25am

Brian? wrote: »

Never made a penny from it

Tenant 1: 6 months rent

Tenant 2: 6 months rent some cleaning needed

Tenant 3: 3 months rent, 3 months nothing, lot of cost, possibly net loss?

Tenant 4: 2 years rent

Tenant 5: No time given lets say 6 months minus 2 months rent in expenses

So overall there is at least 3 years worth of rent paid, how could you not make a penny out of that?
Mortgage payments are not an expense, thats profit that you are using to pay off a loan, you no longer owe that money so you have gained those payments made as an asset.

Don't get me wrong I can see being a LL can be crap having to deal with potentially terrible tenants and there should be better legislation to evict non-paying tenants. But to say you made no money based on the figures you have given is wrong.

On another point there really can't be many people still in negative equity at this stage prices are back up to 80-90% of peak prices and thats 10 years of mortgage payments, so someone would have to have been paying interest only for a long period of that time to still be in negative equity. There really shouldn't be that many still in that position.

FTA69 · 10-10-2018 9:28am

beauf wrote: »

LL are generally pointing out the flaws in the system. But rather than trying to understand that people just hear what they want to hear.

Just don't use them if it bothers you that much. Use the govt provided housing instead.

There isnt any available. Instead we have vast sums of taxpayer's money being transferred into the hands of private landlords via rent allowance while rent is also inflated massively for everyone else in the cities thus allowing landlords to make a fortune.

Coincidentally the government which allows this to happen is ideologically allergic to state housing despite it being badly needed, and lo and behold, the same government has a massive percentage of people who are also landlords.

Laois_Man · 10-10-2018 9:35am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sell and declare bankruptcy.

Nope, they’d rather be a landlord.

Great choice

Do you want to be executed by electrocution or do you want it by gas chamber!

That's not a problem at all

Sultan_of_Ping · 10-10-2018 9:46am

Whether you have it good, bad or indifferent depends on the tenants you get.

We had a great run of 10 years, 3 tenancies (3 couples, one with a child) before the last tenant. You do everything right, but you can still end up with a bad apple. Himself and his girlfriend took the property on and almost immediately allowed sub-tenants who really didn't give a sh!t about their neighbours.

So after nearly a year of getting complaints from the neighbours, trying to reason with the tenants we decided to seek possession.....took the guts of year to sort that out.....as soon as we started the process the rent was stopped.

Then when we finally got possession back the place had been trashed - it didn't just need re-decorating (which we normally did between each tenancy), it needed serious and substantial repairs including the replacement of two power showers ripped from the walls.

All told between getting possession and fixing it back to a fit state it cost about €20k. Since then, Air B 'n' B all the way.......we're not prepared to risk another bad tenant despite the fact that we've had many more 'good' tenant years than bad ones. The costs and consequences of getting a bad one are just to severe, even if the probability is low.

Graces7 · 10-10-2018 9:48am

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Whether you have it good, bad or indifferent depends on the landlord you get.

small alteration to your post

Sultan_of_Ping · 10-10-2018 9:57am

Graces7 wrote: »

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Whether you have it good, bad or indifferent depends on the landlord you get.

small alteration to your post

Yeah, no problem with that. When I was a tenant I appreciated a good landlord.

As a landlord I appreciate a good tenant......I try to be the type of landlord I'd value if I was a tenant. But you can be the best landlord in the world and still get a bad tenant who doesn't reciprocate.

To my mind, the system in Ireland isn't serving tenants or landlords very well. A good tenant should enjoy stronger and longer tenure than is currently the case but it should be much easier to get possession when a tenant turns out to be a bad one.

Brian? · 10-10-2018 10:03am

cruizer101 wrote: »

So overall there is at least 3 years worth of rent paid, how could you not make a penny out of that?
Mortgage payments are not an expense, thats profit that you are using to pay off a loan, you no longer owe that money so you have gained those payments made as an asset.

Don't get me wrong I can see being a LL can be crap having to deal with potentially terrible tenants and there should be better legislation to evict non-paying tenants. But to say you made no money based on the figures you have given is wrong.

On another point there really can't be many people still in negative equity at this stage prices are back up to 80-90% of peak prices and thats 10 years of mortgage payments, so someone would have to have been paying interest only for a long period of that time to still be in negative equity. There really shouldn't be that many still in that position.

I never made a penny because the rent didn’t cover the mortgage for the first 3 years. I still had to pay tax though as you can only write 75% of the mortgage interest off against tax. So the government made a decent amount from me but I made a net loss.

I’m also selling the house at a loss to get out.

Graces7 · 10-10-2018 10:18am

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

Yeah, no problem with that. When I was a tenant I appreciated a good landlord.

As a landlord I appreciate a good tenant......I try to be the type of landlord I'd value if I was a tenant. But you can be the best landlord in the world and still get a bad tenant who doesn't reciprocate.

To my mind, the system in Ireland isn't serving tenants or landlords very well. A good tenant should enjoy stronger and longer tenure than is currently the case but it should be much easier to get possession when a tenant turns out to be a bad one.

Great post; thank you. So much truth in it. Only had one decent landlord sadly and he got in a total financial mess, needed to sell and he was so desperate I did not hold him to the long notice period. Left as asap 18 months on and the house has not sold.

Beta Ray Bill · 10-10-2018 10:20am

Brian? wrote: »

I never made a penny because the rent didn’t cover the mortgage for the first 3 years. I still had to pay tax though as you can only write 75% of the mortgage interest off against tax. So the government made a decent amount from me but I made a net loss.

I’m also selling the house at a loss to get out.

^^^ This ^^^
is ALOT of people.

It's completely unprofitable to Rent a house that has a recently drawn down mortgage on it.

The only way you can make a living on being a Landlord is if you inherit a property.

The other option is Air B&B. Short term lets are 0 hassle and quite profitable.
But the government don't want this now*, and could be planning to make a move against it.
I think it's a bad idea, interfering with the Free Market always makes things worse.

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-10-2018 10:21am

seamus wrote: »

It's an expectations problem.

Many small time landlords don't run it like a business, they instead consider it more like a guesthouse. Thus when they have crappy tenants, rather than consider it a contract gone bad, clean it up and get on with it, they take personal offence.

There are too many people in the business of renting houses who are there to speculate on property prices, not to provide a service or make money on rental income. They saw themselves as wiley tycoons, retiring at 50 with a few million euro in assets to sell. These people need to be gutted from the market.

Hint: If you can't afford the mortgage on your rental property without the rent, you can't afford a rental property.

Very few businesses can sustain zero turnover for a year with legal costs and then to find you've five figures of damage done.

andekwarhola · 10-10-2018 10:30am

Whatever about horrible individual slum lords, vulture funds or big property companies, most Irish landlords are just somebody with a single property they're renting out for various reasons: usually negative equity, can't sell it or yes, shock horror, it's going to fund their retirement when it's paid off because they don't want to live on 800 quid a month from the government after paying tax their entire lives.

Such landlords usually have to pay well up to half of the rent income to income tax and pay property taxes and maintain the property.

For all the badmouthing they get, they're putting a roof over a lot of people's heads. If you want to really blame somebody for the atrocious mismanagement of social housing and affordable rental properties in this country, look to the people that most of you no doubt voted into power in order to get a few quid extra in your pay packet every week.

On the above note, if you search these boards not so long ago, it'd be full of jubilant tenants advising others to lowball struggling landlords that were desperate for tenants. The majority of people in this country aren't interested in a long term equitable rental system, just what suits them at a particular time. That's why you get the cyclical, inept management of that system for which you vote.

10-10-2018 10:31am

steddyeddy wrote: »

........ One thing that Irish landlords never seemed to get is the fact that once they rent a property out it's someone else's residence. You don't get to turn up unannounced and walk around. ............

Sweeping generalisation. I didn't step foot in a property for over a decade as a landlord.

Austria! · 10-10-2018 10:43am

seamus wrote: »

It's an expectations problem.

Many small time landlords don't run it like a business,

I agree. Landlords should be running it as a business, but too many don't. Stupid landlords.

fly_agaric wrote: »

So the expenses on the property, the tax depreciation etc are not enough.

You'd also want literal "rentiers" to get all the kinds of expenses someone receives who is working at a trade or profession or running a business.

I agree. Who are these landlords kidding, thinking they should get expenses like someone who runs a business. Stupid landlords

Do landlords in Ireland have it as tough as they think?

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