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St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

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    #2
    LW2018
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭LW2018


    I really don't think this school will be the only outlier. I feel a number of students will feel extremely let down by the system when they see the grades that were calculated for them and I do hope, for their sake, that they shout and scream about the disadvantage bestowed upon them whereby a computer played 'God' in their results


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    #3
    cmssjone
    Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭cmssjone


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    Anyone see this today. When the rest of the schools in the country are seeing an uptick in grades, the German school is seeing a downgrade for what is supposed to German school. Makes you wonder what the circumstances where.

    Article from the RTE is here https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0908/1163950-german-results-st-killians/

    Open letter from the principal, which doesn't read very well is here https://www.kilians.com/news/2020/leaving-certificate-german-results-letter-to-the-does/

    Does anyone know how this situation could arise, is this school an outlier?

    Once the previous distribution of each individual school was omitted from the algorithm this was always going to happen. Most fee paying schools will have been hit hard in a negative way and I can see legal action being taken by a good cohort of parents. Several teachers that I know, whose students would usually score top grades have had around half of their predicted grades brought down by at least a grade. There certainly wasn’t any grade inflation in these schools...


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    #4
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    They can resit the exam in in a few months.


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    #5
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    By the logic of that letter, native speakers of Irish and English should all get high marks.


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    #6
    Seamai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Seamai


    I studied German in senior cycle only and sat it in the LC (almost 40 years ago). So, does a native speaker going to St Killian's sit the exact same exam as someone who has studied it for only a few years? If so, it hardly seems like a level playing pitch.


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    #7
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    Seamai wrote: »
    I studied German in senior cycle and sat it in the LC (almost 40 years ago). So, does a native speaker going to St Killian's sit the exact same exam as someone who has studied it for only a few years? If so, it hardly seems like a level playing pitch.

    Yes, essentially they sit German as if it’s their second language. Same for all those sitting Polish etc, native speakers sitting second language papers. They can sit it in Nov


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    #8
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,281 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    I’ve a few contacts in schools within Eastern Leinster

    The general feeling is that the dept actively averaged the results

    Brought up poorer schools

    Brought down better schools


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    #9
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    Does anyone know how this situation could arise, is this school an outlier?
    I imagine the magical algorithm they use just adjusts grades across the board, without taking school profile into account in any way, which in the case of St. Killian’s is ludicrous, and wrong.

    Similarly, I imagine a good number of Gaelcholáistí had a good number of grades reduced in Irish, but the algorithm could probably take that into account more easily, because there are a lot more Gaelcholáistí than German schools. To the algorithm, St. Killian’s probably just looked like the German teachers were way too generous in their results, without accounting for the fact that they were actually being realistic in that case (and let’s be honest - they probably were still a bit generous, even if unintentionally so, because I imagine very few teachers didn’t err on the side of generosity in any school).


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    #10
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Seamai wrote: »
    I studied German in senior cycle only and sat it in the LC (almost 40 years ago). So, does a native speaker going to St Killian's sit the exact same exam as someone who has studied it for only a few years? If so, it hardly seems like a level playing pitch.
    If they’re a native speaker, they’re sitting all of their other subjects in their second (or even third language). I imagine that levels the playing field quite a bit. If anything, they’re still at a disadvantage.


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    #11
    DangerScouse
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 466 ✭✭DangerScouse


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    I’ve a few contacts in schools within Eastern Leinster

    The general feeling is that the dept actively averaged the results

    Brought up poorer schools

    Brought down better schools

    I see no problem with that approach tbh.


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    #12
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    DangerScouse wrote: »
    I see no problem with that approach tbh.

    Lol!


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    #13
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    By the logic of that letter, native speakers of Irish and English should all get high marks.
    No, not really. The German exam is mainly a test of the students ability to speak, write, and read German. They don’t have to study novels, poems, plays, and the media in German, like they do in Irish and english (unless it’s changed quite a bit since I did leaving cert German).
    You would expect a native speaker to do very well in an exam like leaving cert German, and native speakers do better on average in Irish. I would say that in general, people who speak english as a first language do better in the english exam than those for whom it’s not their first language too, wouldn’t you agree?
    Irish and english are more than just testing the student’s ability to communicate in those languages though, and the German exam isn’t, to the best of my knowledge.


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    #14
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,131 ✭✭✭screamer


    I don’t agree with the schools historical performance giving students an edge, and I also think applying bell curves is a disgrace. You should be awarded what you get ( in usual sittings ), no discrimination because you can’t afford a private school. I think the whole leaving cert process needs a rethink, it seems rotten to the core.


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    #15
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I imagine the magical algorithm they use just adjusts grades across the board, without taking school profile into account in any way, which in the case of St. Killian’s is ludicrous, and wrong.

    Similarly, I imagine a good number of Gaelcholáistí had a good number of grades reduced in Irish, but the algorithm could probably take that into account more easily, because there are a lot more Gaelcholáistí than German schools. To the algorithm, St. Killian’s probably just looked like the German teachers were way too generous in their results, without accounting for the fact that they were actually being realistic in that case (and let’s be honest - they probably were still a bit generous, even if unintentionally so, because I imagine very few teachers didn’t err on the side of generosity in any school).

    I don’t think Kilians does that well from a points perspective anyway. It’s not an actual full German school. The German is very light touch with an emphasis on the kids with German speaking parents.


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    #16
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,426 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    <name snipped> was my German teacher from 1st to 6th year back in the day in a different school. Absolute hard as nails tiny woman who took zero ****. We used to call her Little Hitler.

    If you yawned in her class and she saw you, she'd make you go over to the window, open it and stand there 'breathing in fresh air' while mortifying you the whole time.

    No homework? Instant detention on Wednesday. There's be people queuing up at the end of the class with their homework notebooks awaiting her to write a detention note. If you didn't get your parent to sign it for the next class, she'd give you detention again.

    At the start of the class she'd go around one by one and ask everyone a German word from a list of vocabulary we'd to learn for homework. Get too many wrong? You guessed it, detention.

    I actually used to fear going to her class. :eek: had double German every Thursday morning at 9am, the horror.


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    #17
    ReadySteadyGo
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ReadySteadyGo


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    I don’t think Kilians does that well from a points perspective anyway. It’s not an actual full German school. The German is very light touch with an emphasis on the kids with German speaking parents.



    Some figures from their blog 2019 results
    https://www.kilians.com/news/2019/leaving-certificate-results-2019/

    9% received over 600 points
    38% received over 500 points

    I don't know what national percentage looks like, but this looks very good to me


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    #18
    ReadySteadyGo
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ReadySteadyGo


    ReadySteadyGo wrote: »
    Some figures from their blog 2019 results
    https://www.kilians.com/news/2019/leaving-certificate-results-2019/

    9% received over 600 points
    38% received over 500 points

    I don't know what national percentage looks like, but this looks very good to me

    https://www.kilians.com/news/2018/leaving-certificate-results-2018/

    2018 finished with ten percent over 600 points.


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    #19
    ReadySteadyGo
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ReadySteadyGo


    ReadySteadyGo wrote: »
    https://www.kilians.com/news/2018/leaving-certificate-results-2018/

    2018 finished with ten percent over 600 points.

    If I read this right in 2019 nationally only 1.4p.c. had over 600 points

    http://www2.cao.ie/app_scoring/points_stats/lc19pts.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjc-vnEzNrrAhUQsaQKHQUUCG8QFjALegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0dv-72zTdhsIGiJO7LkVnd&cshid=1599603877883

    Edit: Hmm maybe this link will work

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www2.cao.ie/app_scoring/points_stats/lc19pts.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwihgYHPvdvrAhUMThUIHSdlDJ4QFjAAegQIExAC&usg=AOvVaw0dv-72zTdhsIGiJO7LkVnd


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    #20
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    ReadySteadyGo wrote:
    2018 finished with ten percent over 600 points.

    How many in the class? How many children with additional needs get taken into the school in the first place?


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    #21
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    spurious wrote: »
    How many in the class? How many children with additional needs get taken into the school in the first place?

    I think the point is that they were unjustly treated by the algorithm as high points is the norm in this school.


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    #22
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Mardy Bum wrote:
    I think the point is that they were unjustly treated by the algorithm as high points is the norm in this school.


    It could be one child in a class of ten. Without the full picture it is cherry picking.

    Every year the Leaving throws up cases of anomalies, unexpected and 'unfair' results. Most schools and students just get on with it.


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    #23
    ReadySteadyGo
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ReadySteadyGo


    spurious wrote: »
    It could be one child in a class of ten. Without the full picture it is cherry picking.

    Every year the Leaving throws up cases of anomalies, unexpected and 'unfair' results. Most schools and students just get on with it.

    From the open letter, there appears to be about 40 students in 2020. (They expected 50p.c. to get h1 in german, they predicted 19 h1).

    From here. https://www.education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=60630W it looks like on average 70 students? 400 students/6 years.


    This thread is focussed on their German results, and it seems clear that the algorithm was unable to understand that these students/this school are very strong in german.

    But it looks like this school has had very strong students/results in all subjects for several years.

    There are growing noises that high performing schools have lost out this year. And I think that is a wider issue but harder to prove in general.

    I wonder what their points distribution looks like this year.


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    #24
    HerrKuehn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    I assume gaelscoil had the same issue with Irish? I mean I would expect they historically have high results. If the algorithm is not taking the school into account, surely they should be way down?


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    #25
    Funkfield
    Registered Users Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭Funkfield


    screamer wrote: »
    I don’t agree with the schools historical performance giving students an edge, and I also think applying bell curves is a disgrace. You should be awarded what you get ( in usual sittings ), no discrimination because you can’t afford a private school. I think the whole leaving cert process needs a rethink, it seems rotten to the core.

    And no discrimination because you can

    It's not all D4 millionaire's children affected here. Many parents are really stretched, go without, and do everything else they can to put their child in a decent school


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    #26
    Cloudio9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    There’s probably a load of Polish families in schools who feel hard done by but won’t have the Irish times as a platform to air their grievances.


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    #27
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    A schools previous performance should never be considered when grading a student. A student should be graded on their ability and performance on the test/task.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #28
    ReadySteadyGo
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ReadySteadyGo


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    I assume gaelscoil had the same issue with Irish? I mean I would expect they historically have high results. If the algorithm is not taking the school into account, surely they should be way down?

    Potentially, although There might be sufficient numbers of them in the national historic data for the algorithm to treat them better.

    It might even have given a general uplift across all subjects to any cohort of students who do above average in their Irish jc.


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    #29
    HerrKuehn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    ReadySteadyGo wrote: »
    Potentially, although There might be sufficient numbers of them in the national historic data for the algorithm to treat them better.

    It might even have given a general uplift across all subjects to any cohort of students who do above average in their Irish jc.

    yet, we haven't heard any complaints from them, so I assume they havent been disadvantaged in Irish


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    #30
    cmssjone
    Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭cmssjone


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    A schools previous performance should never be considered when grading a student. A student should be graded on their ability and performance on the test/task.

    It usually is. That’s why students sit exams. It is widely known that students that attend certain schools achieve higher grades than other schools. This happens year on year and should have been incorporated into the predictive grade algorithm.


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    #31
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    ReadySteadyGo wrote: »
    This thread is focused on their German results, and it seems clear that the algorithm was unable to understand that these students/this school are very strong in German.

    Anyone know what the formula\algorithm is?

    I guess these students would be picked up as outliers for German and their results were flattened hence the outcry. Perfectly understandable outcry too.

    Obviously the algorithm is not sophisticated enough to deal with cases like these.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see more complaints like this coming out from high end fee paying schools.

    I guess it's the nature of prediction. Never going to be perfect.


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