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Electrician to Engineer

13

Comments

  • #62
    Stoner
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    dahamster wrote:
    Why would you supplement your existing level 7 with another level 7? You realise to practice as an electrical engineer a level 8 is the minimum requirement?

    That is not true in practice. To sign something off you need a Cent,

    There are a lot of people operating as engineers with level 7 qualifications regardless of how anyone feels about it

    I could name some from many practices

    There are many opportunities for electricians with a level 7 ordinary degree.

    I'm not one myself, I've numerous level 9 qualifications in the field so I'm not backing up my own path or being defensive, but firms are hiring level 7 people all the time.

    Plus guys are getting a level 8 Bsc as a one year top up to a level 7 Beng degree. It's not approved as an engineering degree by EI but it's in energy management


    TBH going from being an electrician to a level 8 engineering degree is tough going. It takes a long time, many who've completed it part time want others to go through the same pain.

    But it's easier these days, that is a simple fact.

    The level 7 degrees for electricians, the ones where an electrician enters in year 2 are very narrow in scope IMO, they are designed for electricians and guys can hit the ground running.
    Yes it's a technical position but these guys are never called technicians


    However the maths content is very limited and I think many would struggle unless you had decent leaving certificate maths , the level 7 maths for the electrical services engineering is lower than honours leaving cert maths IMO, where as engineering maths in other courses builds on it.


    Also moving into BIM is a great option for some electricians , with your experience and level 7 degree you might be able to do an Msc in BIM.


  • #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    aido79 wrote: »
    I wasn't sure how much respect is given to the level 7 apprenticeship so thanks for explaining it that. To me it sounds a bit like you would be able to call yourself an engineer while working with the company that you done your apprenticeship with but good luck in getting another engineering job if you want to leave.

    As said by others, there's topclass folk working as engineers that aren't level 7 or level 8 qualified.

    The level 7 thing coupled with the elec trade is simply a starting point. Apply for an elec eng role it and I doubt you'd be entertained unless it's a role overseeing lots of 2 pair cable being installed etc.


  • #64
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Augeo wrote: »
    The level 7 thing coupled with the elec trade is simply a starting point. Apply for an elec eng role it and I doubt you'd be entertained unless it's a role overseeing lots of 2 pair cable being installed etc.

    Simply not true.
    I know of many examples of senior and lead engineers in well known consultancies that only have level 7 degrees. I also know that some employers rate some level 7 degrees more than they rate some level 8 degrees.

    I also know of some that are chartered engineers that have level 6 and level 7 qualifications.


  • #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Augeo wrote: »
    As said by others, there's topclass folk working as engineers that aren't level 7 or level 8 qualified.

    The level 7 thing coupled with the elec trade is simply a starting point. Apply for an elec eng role it and I doubt you'd be entertained unless it's a role overseeing lots of 2 pair cable being installed etc.
    2011 wrote: »
    Simply not true.
    I know of many examples of senior and lead engineers in well known consultancies that only have level 7 degrees. I also know that some employers rate some level 7 degrees more than they rate some level 8 degrees.

    I also know of some that are chartered engineers that have level 6 and level 7 qualifications.



    I said it's a starting point ;)


    Of course once folk get experience they can progress but the level 7 thing coupled with the elec trade without any engineering experience won't open many doors for you.

    The examples of senior and lead engineers in well known consultancies that only have level 7 degrees that you know didn't walk into those roles fresh after qualifying with the level 7.

    Some level 8 degrees are a waste of time too of course but you'll struggle to fine a level 8 in elect eng that's rated lower than a level 7 elec eng course.

    I know a commissioning engineer who is qualified with a bachelor of commerce, I wouldn't advice anyone aspiring to be a commissioning engineer to go that route though.

    And there are of course plenty useless folk working with well known consultancies in senior roles that simply aren't great, much like in every job.


  • #66
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Augeo wrote: »
    Of course once folk get experience they can progress but the level 7 thing coupled with the elec trade without any engineering experience won't open many doors for you.

    In this climate it will, although I accept it may open less doors with everything else being equal.
    The examples of senior and lead engineers in well known consultancies that only have level 7 degrees that you know didn't walk into those roles fresh after qualifying with the level 7.

    Agreed.
    My point is it is achievable.

    Remember electricians have 4 years training and many have considerable site experience which can include important things that take a long time (even for engineers) to become proficient at such as commissioning, design mods, redlining drawings. Therefore many sparks they are not completely “green”. As they are generally older they may have less time and a mortgage so they may need a quicker solution to getting of their tools.

    In my opinion electricians need to have a plan in place to get off their tools before they are 40. As it can be very physically demanding and therefore short career.


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  • #67
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    aido79 wrote: »
    The level 7 is also not recognised by Engineers Ireland

    Not true, have a look at the Engineers Ireland website and you will see a list of courses that they recognise many of which are level 7.
    See link.


  • #68
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    Stoner wrote: »
    That is not true in practice. To sign something off you need a Cent,

    There are a lot of people operating as engineers with level 7 qualifications regardless of how anyone feels about it

    I could name some from many practices

    There are many opportunities for electricians with a level 7 ordinary degree.

    I'm not one myself, I've numerous level 9 qualifications in the field so I'm not backing up my own path or being defensive, but firms are hiring level 7 people all the time.

    Plus guys are getting a level 8 Bsc as a one year top up to a level 7 Beng degree. It's not approved as an engineering degree by EI but it's in energy management


    TBH going from being an electrician to a level 8 engineering degree is tough going. It takes a long time, many who've completed it part time want others to go through the same pain.

    But it's easier these days, that is a simple fact.

    The level 7 degrees for electricians, the ones where an electrician enters in year 2 are very narrow in scope IMO, they are designed for electricians and guys can hit the ground running.
    Yes it's a technical position but these guys are never called technicians


    However the maths content is very limited and I think many would struggle unless you had decent leaving certificate maths , the level 7 maths for the electrical services engineering is lower than honours leaving cert maths IMO, where as engineering maths in other courses builds on it.


    Also moving into BIM is a great option for some electricians , with your experience and level 7 degree you might be able to do an Msc in BIM.

    Some good information there.
    I'm lucky enough to be in a position to be able to study full-time and having studied part-time before while working I'd prefer to study full-time.

    As an aside does anyone have an idea of how full on the timetable might be for a full-time engineering course?

    I did honours maths for the leaving and never really had much of a problem with it but that was 20 years ago so might be a bit rusty.

    What exactly is BIM?


  • #69
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    aido79 wrote: »
    What exactly is BIM?

    “Building Information Modeling” is so much more than just a 3D model.
    Have a look at this to get some idea:



  • #70
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    2011 wrote: »
    “Building Information Modeling” is so much more than just a 3D model.
    Have a look at this to get some idea:


    Looks very interesting. I've worked on many projects that could have benefited greatly from BIM.


  • #71
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    Been looking at this course and the possibility of joining the second year of it next year:

    https://www.dkit.ie/courses/school-of-engineering/electronic-and-mechanical-engineering/beng-(hons.)-in-engineering-(common-entry).html?courseType=20

    It's a new course with this being the first year of it.

    One thing I'm wondering about is the recognition. It says in the course details:
    "Recognition Information - Graduates are eligible for Engineer’s Ireland Associate Member grade"

    So even though it's a level 8 course Engineers Ireland only recognise graduates as associate engineers. Any thoughts on why this might be and if doing this course would be a good move?


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  • #72
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    aido79 wrote: »
    So even though it's a level 8 course Engineers Ireland only recognise graduates as associate engineers. Any thoughts on why this might be and if doing this course would be a good move?

    As is often the case it may be a level 8 in name only.


  • #73
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    2011 wrote: »
    As is often the case it may be a level 8 in name only.

    Is it possible this is because it is a new course?


  • #74
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Slightly off topic The whole NFQ level 8 in Engineering from dkit is a weird one. a former colleague had 20 years done on Motorway jobs with a level 7 old diploma in civil from Carlow. He did the level 8 part time in DKIT which is not recognized by EI. He got his level 8 this year i believe or maybe last year .

    He has applied to a LA for a Engineering role and he got the job which was min Level 8 . His level 8 is recognized under the NFQ and thats all that mattered to them. The fact that EI dont recognize it doesn't seam to matter. My cousin rang me last week about him doing it but i dont no what to tell him as it not recognized by EI but it is by LA's. Is it a risk?


  • #75
    HopsAndJumps
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭HopsAndJumps


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Slightly off topic The whole NFQ level 8 in Engineering from dkit is a weird one. a former colleague had 20 years done on Motorway jobs with a level 7 old diploma in civil from Carlow. He did the level 8 part time in DKIT which is not recognized by EI. He got his level 8 this year i believe or maybe last year .

    He has applied to a LA for a Engineering role and he got the job which was min Level 8 . His level 8 is recognized under the NFQ and thats all that mattered to them. The fact that EI dont recognize it doesn't seam to matter. My cousin rang me last week about him doing it but i dont no what to tell him as it not recognized by EI but it is by LA's. Is it a risk?
    As far as I know, an EI recognition only matters if you want to be a chartered engineer.


  • #76
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    HopsAndJumps wrote: »
    As far as I know, an EI recognition only matters if you want to be a chartered engineer.

    i was just a bit worried about recommending a course that was not EI approved as it might hurt his job prospects in the future. To be honest the field he is in i think he being a chartered Construction manager with the CIOB would be better to him then CEng


  • #77
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    HopsAndJumps wrote: »
    As far as I know, an EI recognition only matters if you want to be a chartered engineer.

    Courses that are not recognized tend not to be as highly regarded by prospective employers.


  • #78
    HopsAndJumps
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭HopsAndJumps


    2011 wrote: »
    HopsAndJumps wrote: »
    As far as I know, an EI recognition only matters if you want to be a chartered engineer.

    Courses that are not recognized tend not to be  as highly regarded by prospective employers.
    I've never experienced of even heard of this.


  • #79
    Turbulent Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    EI recognition is important if you want to travel abroad and have your qualification recognised.


  • #80
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    Turbulent Bill wrote: »
    EI recognition is important if you want to travel abroad and have your qualification recognised.

    As the course is recognised by EI at an associate engineer level how is the likely to affect my job prospects?
    This is a huge move for me and I need to make sure I pick the right course as I am unlikely to get a chance to do it again. I also can't rule out a return to Australia in the future.


  • #81
    HopsAndJumps
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭HopsAndJumps


    When you travel you will be fine I think. A few guys I used to work with, are now in engineering jobs in the Netherlands and Germany. They only have L7 degrees, they presented the L7 degrees and never mentioned that it was an undergraduate degree as that inst a thing in most countries. I don't even know of any other country that has L7 as part of their qualification frame work.
    They see a degree and assume its a Level 8. I don't think they will research the quality of the degree or university too much. I think if you are in that territory, you are applying for a job that requires a masters.


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  • #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    aido79 wrote: »
    ........
    This is a huge move for me and I need to make sure I pick the right course as I am unlikely to get a chance to do it again.............

    Well in that case why not do a level 8 recognised by EI if you really, really want to make the qualification move from electrician to engineer?


  • #83
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    Augeo wrote: »
    Well in that case why not do a level 8 recognised by EI if you really, really want to make the qualification move from electrician to engineer?

    To be honest practicality will play a part. I will be commuting from Cavan every day. Travelling to Dundalk is the easiest option.


  • #84
    cast_iron
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    This has been an interesting read.

    My own view is that you are looking at it somewhat back to front. It's a little hard to just "become an engineer" and off you go and work as an engineer. You really need to decide what area you want to work in and and focus on a course that will get you that job. You've thought about doing 3 or 4 very different courses but don't seem to be sure what you actually want to do once you qualify, apart from "engineering". It's a very broad area.

    If you are looking for a general course that will cover all bases, go for the Level 8 in Elec Eng. That DKIT course looks fine, though if you have any queries as to how recognised the course is, contact Engineers Ireland and/or the college for clarification.

    In all practicality, the degree is usually just used to get your foot in the door once you qualify. The exact ins and outs of the degree become immaterial very quickly after and your experience is what counts once you want to change job down the line. Have a look at some of the job ads you may want to work at and see what the employer is asking for. A lot of them specify Level 8 these days.

    I wouldn't get too hung up on Associate/Chartered in the Electrical area at this stage. Chartered will require a Level 9 and a bit more to go with it and is only really of use to sign off designs in the electrical area. Associate require 4 years post graduate work experience in the field to buy the title, and at that, i don't see any real advantage to it.


  • #85
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    cast_iron wrote: »
    This has been an interesting read.

    My own view is that you are looking at it somewhat back to front. It's a little hard to just "become an engineer" and off you go and work as an engineer. You really need to decide what area you want to work in and and focus on a course that will get you that job. You've thought about doing 3 or 4 very different courses but don't seem to be sure what you actually want to do once you qualify, apart from "engineering". It's a very broad area.

    If you are looking for a general course that will cover all bases, go for the Level 8 in Elec Eng. That DKIT course looks fine, though if you have any queries as to how recognised the course is, contact Engineers Ireland and/or the college for clarification.

    In all practicality, the degree is usually just used to get your foot in the door once you qualify. The exact ins and outs of the degree become immaterial very quickly after and your experience is what counts once you want to change job down the line. Have a look at some of the job ads you may want to work at and see what the employer is asking for. A lot of them specify Level 8 these days.

    I wouldn't get too hung up on Associate/Chartered in the Electrical area at this stage. Chartered will require a Level 9 and a bit more to go with it and is only really of use to sign off designs in the electrical area. Associate require 4 years post graduate work experience in the field to buy the title, and at that, i don't see any real advantage to it.

    I am CEng but i have not really being active in engineering since i moved job a few years back or to put it better forced to find a new job due to lack of construction jobs. So i am wary of giving advice. But just a question about the Associate title i know a few lads that went CIOB instead of EI Associate from what you are saying they seam to have chosen the right route. is the Associate Title not worth anything?


  • #86
    cast_iron
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I am CEng but i have not really being active in engineering since i moved job a few years back or to put it better forced to find a new job due to lack of construction jobs. So i am wary of giving advice. But just a question about the Associate title i know a few lads that went CIOB instead of EI Associate from what you are saying they seam to have chosen the right route. is the Associate Title not worth anything?
    I'm guessing your are a civil engineer?
    I was only referring to electrical engineers when i spoke about titles. I understand titles are fairly important in the civil discipline...my point being they are less so in electrical area unless working in a design role.
    A cursory look at job advertisements in the electrical engineering area, you will generally see employers ask for either Level 8 or Chartered (or on the path to chartered). I've never seen one ask for the Associate title.
    Again, that only applies to electrical and the above is just from my observations.


  • #87
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    cast_iron wrote: »
    I'm guessing your are a civil engineer?
    I was only referring to electrical engineers when i spoke about titles. I understand titles are fairly important in the civil discipline...my point being they are less so in electrical area unless working in a design role.
    A cursory look at job advertisements in the electrical engineering area, you will generally see employers ask for either Level 8 or Chartered (or on the path to chartered). I've never seen one ask for the Associate title.
    Again, that only applies to electrical and the above is just from my observations.

    Guilty as charged. When it comes to Titles and degrees from my own experience during the good times if you are a capable worker a level 7 degree is more than enough to get you to senior management in the private sector. But if you are public you can only get to Senior Technician. Than in the bad days i seen some of my colleagues including my boss at the time who was the best engineer i ever seen could not get a job in the private sector high up because he was not chartered or have a level 8.


  • #88
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    cast_iron wrote: »
    This has been an interesting read.

    My own view is that you are looking at it somewhat back to front. It's a little hard to just "become an engineer" and off you go and work as an engineer. You really need to decide what area you want to work in and and focus on a course that will get you that job. You've thought about doing 3 or 4 very different courses but don't seem to be sure what you actually want to do once you qualify, apart from "engineering". It's a very broad area.

    If you are looking for a general course that will cover all bases, go for the Level 8 in Elec Eng. That DKIT course looks fine, though if you have any queries as to how recognised the course is, contact Engineers Ireland and/or the college for clarification.

    In all practicality, the degree is usually just used to get your foot in the door once you qualify. The exact ins and outs of the degree become immaterial very quickly after and your experience is what counts once you want to change job down the line. Have a look at some of the job ads you may want to work at and see what the employer is asking for. A lot of them specify Level 8 these days.

    I wouldn't get too hung up on Associate/Chartered in the Electrical area at this stage. Chartered will require a Level 9 and a bit more to go with it and is only really of use to sign off designs in the electrical area. Associate require 4 years post graduate work experience in the field to buy the title, and at that, i don't see any real advantage to it.

    Thanks for that. Very good advice about looking at it from the other approach of deciding what area I want to work in and working backwards from there to find a course.
    My main area of interest would be electronics/ programming with electrical coming second.
    I had more or less made my mind up to study Mechatronics but am having second thoughts due to a lot of negativity I've read about the career prospects and how employers view mechatronics qualifications.

    In regards to getting my foot in the door I presume it is still possible to achieve this with the DKIT course as it is a level 8 course even if EI only recognise it an associate level?


  • #89
    cast_iron
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    I imagine certain big employers would look more favourably on degrees from certain college over others, but whether it would be a deciding factor or not, I'm not so sure. The fact you are not 21, fresh out of college and have worked quite a bit in industry will be in your favour i would say.

    I know electronic and electrical engineers who are actually working in those roles and would say there's very little crossover in what they actually do day to day - the jobs are very different. That's why i say look at what you want to work in and do a course to suit. I'd forget the Mechatronics and agree it's not well regarded and viewed as a mish-mash of courses and not what employers want. Interesting i'd say, but somewhat useless.

    A recent note from Morgan McKinley, i'd say isn't too far off the mark:

    Skills and Qualifications

    The most desirable skills and qualifications that organisations are looking for within Engineering are a minimum of a Level 8 degree across the board for multinational companies and Small Medium Enterprises. For some more junior positions, a Level 7 Qualification will suffice. A degree and/or a Masters in Mechanical, Medtronic, BioMedical, Electrical, Electronic are all in high demand. Software packages such as Solidworks, Ansys, Catia V5, Siemens and Pro E Creo are in highly desirable also.


    The ideal job seeker for most roles would have a level 8 degree plus QP qualification and practical experience, For those interested in manufacturing - programming and machining in CNC, MasterCAM, CadCam, Solidworks and FeatureCAM are all among the in-demand skills. There is a shortage of strong candidates with Polymer and plastics experience. Industry experience is still the preferred background, and on most occasions companies are not willing to consider professionals who are coming from an alternative industry, in this candidate shy market this is proving to be a missed opportunities for the clients who are not willing to look outside industry


  • #90
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    cast_iron wrote: »
    I imagine certain big employers would look more favourably on degrees from certain college over others, but whether it would be a deciding factor or not, I'm not so sure. The fact you are not 21, fresh out of college and have worked quite a bit in industry will be in your favour i would say.

    I know electronic and electrical engineers who are actually working in those roles and would say there's very little crossover in what they actually do day to day - the jobs are very different. That's why i say look at what you want to work in and do a course to suit. I'd forget the Mechatronics and agree it's not well regarded and viewed as a mish-mash of courses and not what employers want. Interesting i'd say, but somewhat useless.

    A recent note from Morgan McKinley, i'd say isn't too far off the mark:

    Skills and Qualifications

    The most desirable skills and qualifications that organisations are looking for within Engineering are a minimum of a Level 8 degree across the board for multinational companies and Small Medium Enterprises. For some more junior positions, a Level 7 Qualification will suffice. A degree and/or a Masters in Mechanical, Medtronic, BioMedical, Electrical, Electronic are all in high demand. Software packages such as Solidworks, Ansys, Catia V5, Siemens and Pro E Creo are in highly desirable also.


    The ideal job seeker for most roles would have a level 8 degree plus QP qualification and practical experience, For those interested in manufacturing - programming and machining in CNC, MasterCAM, CadCam, Solidworks and FeatureCAM are all among the in-demand skills. There is a shortage of strong candidates with Polymer and plastics experience. Industry experience is still the preferred background, and on most occasions companies are not willing to consider professionals who are coming from an alternative industry, in this candidate shy market this is proving to be a missed opportunities for the clients who are not willing to look outside industry


    Thanks cast_iron. I have always leaned more towards electronics but was under the impression that mechatronics might open up more options so that's why I thought it might a good choice. Now that I can see that it would probably close more doors than it would open in the eyes of employers I have ruled it out.
    It's good to see from the Morgan McKinley note than an electrical or electronics degree would be in high demand. I have been in touch with DKIT regarding their level 8 course in Electrical Engineering and the course coordinator thinks that with my previous level 7(from 2001) I might be eligible for a place in the 4th year of the level 8 course. I probably wouldn't be comfortable with jumping straight into the final year of this course after such a long break from studying.
    As the course is new this year there will be no 3rd year next year but for some reason they are introducing a 4th year.
    I would probably be more comfortable with going into the 3rd year of a level 7 course to begin with next year and then enter the 4th year of the level 8 the following year so this may be the route I take.


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  • #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    The Morgan McKinley speel looks to be mainly looking at the med device industry and other high volume manufacturing gigs and even tooling engineering SMEs

    Mastercam, SolidWorks etc etc .......... more for the toolmaker who wants to be an engineer ........ I know they threw in mention of Siemens too but nearly every factory has a PLC in some yoke nowadays :)

    They are correct of course, there is demand for engineers and most companies will like candidates with decent level 8 quals. A new (ish) degree in manufacturing technology from a smaller IT won't be looked at as favourably as a mech eng degree course that's ran for decades from a larger IT/college. There are quite a few "bums on seats" courses out there and many folk involved in hiring aren't fans of them :)

    Just as an example I've worked in quite a few places where a chem eng degree from UCD is a serious advantage on the CV for whatever reason.


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