Engineer wont sign off on extension

antoswords · 02-07-2020 11:20am #1

Hello,

An extension was recently put on our house, en extra bedroom. The engineer refused to sign off on it as he said the window in that room is too small.

The architect and builder are refusing to take full responsibility but will offer a small contribution to the cost of alteration. I'm not happy with this as i feel i shouldn't have to fork out any more money than i already have.

Whose fault is this?

Thanks

Antoswords

Gumbo · 02-07-2020 11:27am

antoswords wrote: »

Hello,

An extension was recently put on our house, en extra bedroom. The engineer refused to sign off on it as he said the window in that room is too small.

The architect and builder are refusing to take full responsibility but will offer a small contribution to the cost of alteration. I'm not happy with this as i feel i shouldn't have to fork out any more money than i already have.

Whose fault is this?

Thanks

Antoswords

Who prepared the construction drawings?
Who gave the window company the order?

The engineer is right not to sign off as this window is a means of escape / rescue in the event of a fire.

sydthebeat · 02-07-2020 11:27am

The window manufacturer

Edit : I'm being slightly disingenuous here.

Its basically everyone's fault.... Depending on what the issue is.

The architect IF they dimensioned the window too small for fire regs.

The window manufacturer for making the opening section too small for either or both fire and ventilation regs.

The builder for not knowing what was installed was wrong

Gumbo · 02-07-2020 11:28am

sydthebeat wrote: »

The window manufacturer

Can depend on who gave the window manufacturer the dimensions and ope sizes.

sydthebeat · 02-07-2020 11:33am

Gumbo wrote: »

Can depend on who gave the window manufacturer the dimensions and ope sizes.

I did an edit above.

At the same time, I do feel the question needs to be asked by the window manufacturer as to the use of the room, and thus the regs which need to be complied with..... And in the case of non compliance they should make this known to builder or client or both

theboss80 · 02-07-2020 1:25pm

Was there a window/door schedule prepared by architect? If answer is no then is there an elevation drawing showing an opening dimension? If you had either of these and the sizing was wrong its the architects fault as builder would follow those. If they didnt exist and builder took it upon himself without external direction to size the window then its' the builders fault.

The fact they both are willing to make a contribution means they know they fu7ked up so if I were you I wouldn't be paying anything towards fixing it and in fact retain money from payments to remedy. It sounds like this is only now an issue which leads to the question was their any supervision or site visits by the engineer or architect during construction where this would have been spotted?

Outkast_IRE · 02-07-2020 1:30pm

As above , have you retained any money or is everybody fully paid off

kravmaga · 02-07-2020 2:08pm

antoswords wrote: »

Hello,

An extension was recently put on our house, en extra bedroom. The engineer refused to sign off on it as he said the window in that room is too small.

The architect and builder are refusing to take full responsibility but will offer a small contribution to the cost of alteration. I'm not happy with this as i feel i shouldn't have to fork out any more money than i already have.

Whose fault is this?

Thanks

Antoswords

Hi there,

What is the cost of the alteration for a new larger window for egress in case of fire to evacuate safely?

I cant see how its the fault of the builder, he is only working off the drawings from the Architect , if anyone is at fault its the architects drawings, he should be up to scratch on Building Fire Regulations.

For the safety of you and your family just get it changed out.

And when you say the engineer, do you mean the Fingal County Council fire safety engineer or some independent engineer?

prewtna · 02-07-2020 10:14pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

The window manufacturer

Edit : I'm being slightly disingenuous here.

Its basically everyone's fault.... Depending on what the issue is.

The architect IF they dimensioned the window too small for fire regs.

The window manufacturer for making the opening section too small for either or both fire and ventilation regs.

The builder for not knowing what was installed was wrong

I’d be of the opinion that builders can’t just throw their arms in the air and say they just blindly built what was in the drawing. They are obliged to build in compliance with the regs. Most drawings have a standard note seeking any errors to be brought to the attention of the architect immediately. Though Many are unfamiliar with the contents of the TGDs. The window supplier similarly have an obligation to provide compliant products and they shouldn’t be able to throw their arms in the air in denial too irrespective of errors on drawings. They have an obligation to complete the design of the system with their product - they could be considered expert in that particular element of the construction process. Lastly, And of course, the architect should be getting the dimension correct in the first place. But errors happen and when they do, mud starts to sling.

Oh and the engineer is dead right not sign-off

RandRuns · 03-07-2020 10:10am

If the window was sized by the architect, it is the architects responsibility. The builder is expected to build to the building regulations, but it not his job to second-guess every dimension given to him by the architect (if he did, no job would ever get finished, and no architect would work with him anyway). The fact that your engineer spotted the window is too small and refused to sign off is an indication you got a good engineer. Unless you yourself insisted the window was to be the size it is, then I would be demanding that the architect correct his mistake.

overshoot · 03-07-2020 10:28am

Assuming the opening isn't the full window, always a chance the architects window schedule just provided an overall size and the builder went off an ordered without any communication on the ope size (not a great reflection on either party)
Some manufacturers chunkier window frames may mean a larger opening section is required than other manufacturers too depending on how fine the margin is.

SpielCheck · 03-07-2020 10:33am

Does the engineer not check openings during construction?

It's a familiar problem , lack of detail or errrors in architect drawings. Usually the contractors correct any errors onsite.

partyguinness · 03-07-2020 10:35am

Surely the window manufacturer measured up AFTER construction so they made the window to fit the opening.

So that points to the builder.

But if the builder built exactly from the Architect's plans then it goes back to the Architect.

listermint · 03-07-2020 10:39am

sydthebeat wrote: »

I did an edit above.

At the same time, I do feel the question needs to be asked by the window manufacturer as to the use of the room, and thus the regs which need to be complied with..... And in the case of non compliance they should make this known to builder or client or both

There could be several windows in a room, not all required to be escapeable (so to speak) so why would the Window manufacturer be at fault? they are given a size and work with that.

partyguinness · 03-07-2020 10:42am

We built a two storey extension last year and had the plans fully prepared by an Architect (German no less).

When it came to building it the builder one day was standing there stratching his head. The measurements written down were all wrong on one section by the Architect.

Now ultimately the builder could not go too wrong as it was blatantly obvious from the drawing where the building line dog legged but it was just the wrong measurement had been written down. Human error.

Bass Reeves · 03-07-2020 10:44am

It unlikely to that it's the window manufacturers fault. It's a single window for a build, it could be a replacement window for any room in a house or garage.

It's with the architect or builders fault. As another poster said probably both of there's if they are willing to make a contribution to its cost. Cost will depend on whether it's just a replacement window ( more than likely) or if the window ope has to be resized. If the window ope has to be resized you are into issues with final finish

listermint · 03-07-2020 10:45am

Ultimately this is all resolvable and it shouldnt be huge cost tbh. Start with the Architect i would say.

The Mighty Quinn · 03-07-2020 10:45am

I draw for a living.

If I have a window not compliant with TGD B, I'll blame myself, not builder or window supplier.

Your engineer is right not to sign off, highly unlikely it'll ever be the case, but it could be a matter of life and death.

Bob Harris · 03-07-2020 10:49am

I can't see now it's the manufacturer's fault. For all they know there are already 10 windows in the room that meet the regulations.

The architect is mostly at fault as they are they one designing it. The builders should know if the window has to meet regulations
and should be flagging this. I'd say 80/20 fault between the architect and the builders.

sydthebeat · 03-07-2020 12:46pm

Funny how people are assigning blame without anyone knowing what the actual problem is.

Is the window opening too small from fire reg point of view? If so, is that because the block ope is too small or because the window openable section is too small?
Is the block ope OK but the window manufacturer use a side guide hinge which caused the openable section to be too small?
Did the manufacturer put in a muntin which reduced the openable section size?
Is the fire reg fine but the ventilation reg isn't met?

Let's see what the actual problem is before we start making assumptions.

listermint · 03-07-2020 12:53pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Funny how people are assigning blame without anyone knowing what the actual problem is.

Is the window opening too small from fire reg point of view? If so, is that because the block ope is too small or because the window openable section is too small?
Is the block ope OK but the window manufacturer use a side guide hinge which caused the openable section to be too small?
Did the manufacturer put in a muntin which reduced the openable section size?
Is the fire reg fine but the ventilation reg isn't met?

Let's see what the actual problem is before we start making assumptions.

You have been the one assigning blame. Your opening post did that. With a boatload of assumptions.

sydthebeat · 03-07-2020 1:04pm

listermint wrote: »

You have been the one assigning blame. Your opening post did that. With a boatload of assumptions.

I said it was everyone's fault depending on what the issue is.... We still don't know what the issue is. So no, I'm not assigning blame anywhere, I'm giving possible scenarios.

Larbre34 · 03-07-2020 1:05pm

Architect's fault. Its their professional responsibility to design to regulations. Its also their responsibility to assess the existing property and how the changes they have designed may compromise things like access and ventilation to that pre-existing property.

If the window is meant to have satisfied fire regulations then it should be big enough, obviously, otherwise fire regulations must be satisfied by other windows and doors in the pre-existing property or in the extension. If they are not, in either way, its the Architect's problem to accept and to solve.

sydthebeat · 03-07-2020 1:11pm

Funny that the architect is refusing to take full responsibility IF the issue is that they designed a block ope that was too small???

Until the OP comes back and tells us EXACTLY what the issue is, everything else is just assumption.

theboss80 · 03-07-2020 2:44pm

There isn't an architect alive who ever took full responsibility for a problem on site :pac:

BryanF · 03-07-2020 3:44pm

I think it’s the clients fault.

Maybe the OP could comeback and defend her/himself

partyguinness · 03-07-2020 5:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Funny how people are assigning blame without anyone knowing what the actual problem is.

Is the window opening too small from fire reg point of view? If so, is that because the block ope is too small or because the window openable section is too small?
Is the block ope OK but the window manufacturer use a side guide hinge which caused the openable section to be too small?
Did the manufacturer put in a muntin which reduced the openable section size?
Is the fire reg fine but the ventilation reg isn't met?

Let's see what the actual problem is before we start making assumptions.

Let's all go for a site visit shall we?

listermint · 03-07-2020 5:54pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Let's all go for a site visit shall we?

Only of there's a pint and a 9 euro meal

sydthebeat · 03-07-2020 6:07pm

listermint wrote: »

Only of there's a pint and a 9 euro meal

I'll buy the tayto, ye can buy the pints

SC024 · 03-07-2020 9:54pm

Wouldnt the engineer have had access to construction drawings from architect to work from?

Wouldn't / Shouldn't he have spotted this during his site visits? as opposed to waiting till the job is finished & then refusing to sign off?

Gumbo · 03-07-2020 10:10pm

SC024 wrote: »

Wouldnt the engineer have had access to construction drawings from architect to work from?

Wouldn't / Shouldn't he have spotted this during his site visits? as opposed to waiting till the job is finished & then refusing to sign off?

Depends if the engineer was engaged to prepare construction drawings.
Depends if the architect was engaged to prepare construction drawings.

I see this daily in my profession. Arrive to site and the client is instructing the builder using planning drawings. Client says yes, I have an engineer. Brilliant. I get his/her details and speak to them. No sorry sir, I’m only providing structural certification.

A lot of the above depends on what the OP has actually engaged the professional if any for. The OP hasn’t been back on yet so it’s all mindless speculation at this stage.

It could be the gardeners fault for all we know now.

Engineer wont sign off on extension

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