Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

20-12-2019 10:05am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

The fact that the greenway crew are continuously stating that is simply not true. Yes the licence agreement would state that if and when required by IE the track would be reinstated but we all know if a greenway is installed it would need to be maintained following reinstatement of the track (if) and we all know the profile is not fit for both throughout the length. I wonder should Irish rail state the greenway should be placed 2.5m from the running edge now from the get go and let the greenway widen the embankments, cuttings and bridges?

Lol, I love this old chestnut. It was also raised at the meeting with no basis in reality. It's literally a creation of the imagination and not a very good one.

Also, what you are asking for is a lease agreement to lease land that is not covered by the lease holder.

L1011 · 20-12-2019 11:00am

"but but but Comber" tired/debunked argument incoming!

20-12-2019 11:09am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

The fact that the greenway crew are continuously stating that is simply not true. Yes the licence agreement would state that if and when required by IE the track would be reinstated but we all know if a greenway is installed it would need to be maintained following reinstatement of the track (if) and we all know the profile is not fit for both throughout the length. I wonder should Irish rail state the greenway should be placed 2.5m from the running edge now from the get go and let the greenway widen the embankments, cuttings and bridges?

It would make more sense to say that they can rebuild the entire greenway 2.5m to the side if the railway ever gets reinstalled.

Muckyboots · 20-12-2019 11:10am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Why does the greenway supporters always compare the proposed western rail corridor greenway to the Westport one? The most comparable greenway must be the one in Athlone but I never hear the stats from that one used.

All of the hotels around Athlone reference the Greenway in their marketing. It's perfoming much better than expected- despite not going through an area that Sinn Fein have decreed as "scenic".
http://www.westmeathexaminer.ie/2019/05/02/more-people-using-greenway-in-athlone-than-in-mullingar/

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 11:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol, I love this old chestnut. It was also raised at the meeting with no basis in reality. It's literally a creation of the imagination and not a very good one.

Also, what you are asking for is a lease agreement to lease land that is not covered by the lease holder.

Of course its a creation of the imagination, it hasn't happened yet! I wonder how fast Galway Co Co will be to sign up to a licensee agreement where they will have to indemnify the Railway against any costs to reinstate the line to its pre-licensee condition? I don't mean the grass and trees

but removal of the greenway etc.

What do you mean lease agreement to lease land not covered by the lease holder?

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 11:35am

Muckyboots wrote: »

All of the hotels around Athlone reference the Greenway in their marketing. It's perfoming much better than expected- despite not going through an area that Sinn Fein have decreed as "scenic".
http://www.westmeathexaminer.ie/2019/05/02/more-people-using-greenway-in-athlone-than-in-mullingar/

Are those numbers justifiable for a greenway in Tuam/Athenry? Minister for a greenway along the WRC stated something like 250k visitors based on Waterford greenway intercept survey 2017 figures not long ago, even the 150k in Athlone, is that between the start of greenway and the Spar shop where all the schools and sports facilities are now connected with estates and town?

Sligo eye · 20-12-2019 11:42am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Are those numbers justifiable for a greenway in Tuam/Athenry? Minister for a greenway along the WRC stated something like 250k visitors based on Waterford greenway intercept survey 2017 figures not long ago, even the 150k in Athlone, is that between the start of greenway and the Spar shop where all the schools and sports facilities are now connected with estates and town?

They aren’t justifiable; but that won’t stop FG/BORE coming on here and claim it will.

Muckyboots · 20-12-2019 11:47am

Sligo eye wrote: »

They aren’t justifiable; but that won’t stop FG/BORE coming on here and claim it will.

But they have greenways in Dublin!!!

Sligo eye · 20-12-2019 11:48am

L1011 wrote: »

"but but but Comber" tired/debunked argument incoming!

That’s because the Comber argument really hits home and totally debunks the “yeah but we will readily give up the greenway route for a railway as and when” argument that many trot out here.

For those of you unfamiliar with the background to this, here’s an unbiased primer:

https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/107/

eastwest · 20-12-2019 11:56am

Sligo eye wrote: »

That’s because the Comber argument really hits home and totally debunks the “yeah but we will readily give up the greenway route for a railway as and when” argument that many trot out here.

For those of you unfamiliar with the background to this, here’s an unbiased primer:

https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/107/

Invalid comparison I'm afraid.
The Irish rail license agreement is different, and watertight.
Pass no heed of the comber nonsense, it's a piece of fake news that came out of the anti greenway camp years ago.

Sligo eye · 20-12-2019 12:01pm

eastwest wrote: »

Invalid comparison I'm afraid.
The Irish rail license agreement is different, and watertight.
Pass no heed of the comber nonsense, it's a piece of fake news that came out of the anti greenway camp years ago.

Yup, like I said, the argument really hits home.

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 1:57pm

eastwest wrote: »

Invalid comparison I'm afraid.
The Irish rail license agreement is different, and watertight.
Pass no heed of the comber nonsense, it's a piece of fake news that came out of the anti greenway camp years ago.

Have you read the license agreement for that greenway? Easy say that now but it would be a political nightmare if that ever happened and should be 2.5m from the R.E to insure we are never a comber if a license is ever drawn up. Wonder if the line would have as much appeal if there was that extra cost, But at least no CPOs

L1011 · 20-12-2019 1:58pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

That’s because the Comber argument really hits home and totally debunks the “yeah but we will readily give up the greenway route for a railway as and when” argument that many trot out here.

For those of you unfamiliar with the background to this, here’s an unbiased primer:

https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/107/

That post is far from unbiased or accurate

The entire project was cancelled and replaced with a different concept, hence it wasn't needed.

But as it's the only shred people can cling to to pretend greenways can't be returned to rail use we keep getting it rehashed.

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 2:58pm

It’s not in the license agreement that a greenway would be maintained between Athlone and Mullingar but Lately a politician mentioned having a light rail between the two towns and immediately there was chat that the greenway can run parallel. The greenway will be the final nail in the railways coffin if allowed in the 5ft and that needs to be discussed because the minister for a greenway won’t tell anybody and we know what he thinks of rail transport

Muckyboots · 20-12-2019 3:10pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

It’s not in the license agreement that a greenway would be maintained between Athlone and Mullingar but Lately a politician mentioned having a light rail between the two towns and immediately there was chat that the greenway can run parallel. The greenway will be the final nail in the railways coffin if allowed in the 5ft and that needs to be discussed because the minister for a greenway won’t tell anybody and we know what he thinks of rail transport

That's double-tracked. Proposing that light rail and greenway run parallel there makes sense on an engineering argument. If someone wants to provide it there or any where else it's possible, incl Tuam- Athenry, lets be having it.

westtip · 20-12-2019 3:52pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Of course its a creation of the imagination, it hasn't happened yet! I wonder how fast Galway Co Co will be to sign up to a licensee agreement where they will have to indemnify the Railway against any costs to reinstate the line to its pre-licensee condition? I don't mean the grass and trees but removal of the greenway etc.

What do you mean lease agreement to lease land not covered by the lease holder?

to reinstate the line Ah now that will be the day, none of the current council staff or members of the council will have any need to worry about that, their grandchildren might!

Isambard · 20-12-2019 4:52pm

a more sensible answer might be that the line would need excavating and deep ballasting anyway so I can't see a couple of inches of tarmac being an obstacle to the diggers.

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 5:02pm

westtip wrote: »

to reinstate the line Ah now that will be the day, none of the current council staff or members of the council will have any need to worry about that, their grandchildren might!

Good lad, that answered the question perfect. Usual greenway answer, keep it up, your doing great!

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 5:07pm

Isambard wrote: »

a more sensible answer might be that the line would need excavating and deep ballasting anyway so I can't see a couple of inches of tarmac being an obstacle to the diggers.

Its in the licence, the same licence that says the railway can take it back at any time inside the 20 year agreement. I didn't make it up, you can get them to change the licence if you like.

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 5:10pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

That's double-tracked. Proposing that light rail and greenway run parallel there makes sense on an engineering argument. If someone wants to provide it there or any where else it's possible, incl Tuam- Athenry, lets be having it.

Agreed, great sense, but not written in the agreement, same agreement the greenway supporters use as the savior to the rail alignment. Won't be worth the paper its written on and the greenway will not get to far on the WRC unless its in 5ft so people should know the possibility is there.

mayo.mick · 20-12-2019 5:46pm

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-seeks-to-permanently-axe-10-closed-lines-430881.html

However, a major review of Iarnród Éireann’s operations by the National Transport Authority (NTA), has suggested the possible closure of another section of the corridor — the line between Ennis and Athenry which was reopened in 2010 at a cost of €100m — as part of a number of route closures to prevent the company from insolvency.

The NTA, which has recommended a significant increase in State funding for Iarnród Éireann, has signalled there will be no route closures before a full public consultation.
Iarnród Éireann has now called on Transport Minister Shane Ross to make orders under the 1950 Transport Act for the abandonment of existing closed lines.

Among the closed lines are a 50km section of track between Waterford and Rosslare Harbour which closed in September 2010 as well as the Claremorris-Colloone section of the Western Rail Corridor. The others are Midleton-Youghal, Navan-Kingscourt, Abbey Junction-New Ross and Mullingar-Athlone as well as Limerick-Foynes, Tralee-Fenit, and Ballingrane-Tralee.

The company pointed out that while it is no longer obliged to operate services on closed lines, it has to carry out structural inspections on the 387 bridges located on such routes to ensure their functionality and safety.

“No funding is currently provided for assets on any closed lines or any associated work,” it stated.

It has also called on Mr Ross to transfer responsibility for maintenance of closed and abandoned railway lines to local authorities.

end of the road · 20-12-2019 6:33pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-seeks-to-permanently-axe-10-closed-lines-430881.html

that article is from 3 years ago, it was discussed at the time on here if i remember rightly.

ShaneC1600 · 20-12-2019 7:14pm

end of the road wrote: »

that article is from 3 years ago, it was discussed at the time on here if i remember rightly.

And was a negotiation tactic for increased MAC funding which was approved earlier this year.

Isambard · 20-12-2019 7:15pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Its in the licence, the same licence that says the railway can take it back at any time inside the 20 year agreement. I didn't make it up, you can get them to change the licence if you like.

can't see why you want to pick a fight with me!

Greaney · 20-12-2019 7:48pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I liked the idea Gerry Murray had of the 8 to 10 km greenways around towns. That really could bring people to scenic sites around towns.

Yes, that was the advice I was given from someone who strategizes and advises on greenways, so, that's what some of us are doing in Athenry. Within a short pedal distance of the town there are an enormous amount of historical sites, and then you bring folks back to the town for a bite/pint/home etc.

We'd love to see if other towns would be interested in exploring threads to link up with them in the future. It'll take time though. And may I add, it's a lot easier to get it done without politicians, some of whom are prone to getting excited and contacting the press every five mins to whip up a mob!!

mayo.mick · 20-12-2019 7:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

that article is from 3 years ago, it was discussed at the time on here if i remember rightly.

Yes, indeed it is. And the owners of closed railway want to abandon it. How many reports now, since the mid 00's have repeatedly stated its not viable?, the latest one costing the taxpayer a whopping €500,000 :mad:. (by the way, why hasn't that report been published? Wasnt' it supposed to be published within 6 months of a certain TD being elected in '16)

The bit of the wrc that has been reopened, the owners now want to close! At least it would be less of a burden on the taxpayer.

20-12-2019 7:59pm

Greaney wrote: »

Yes, that was the advice I was given from someone who strategizes and advises on greenways, so, that's what some of us are doing in Athenry. Within a short pedal distance of the town there are an enormous amount of historical sites, and then you bring folks back to the town for a bite/pint/home etc.

We'd love to see if other towns would be interested in exploring threads to link up with them in the future . It'll take time though. And may I add, it's a lot easier to get it done without politicians, some of whom are prone to getting excited and contacting the press every five mins to whip up a mob!!

You can link up many places with a greenway

Greaney · 20-12-2019 8:00pm

westtip wrote: »

And as a greenway it will protect the route for potential public transport like tram or light rail in the future, which happens to be the official line of policy from its owner.....Irish Rail.

It was mentioned at the meeting that the likelihood that a greenway would ever go back to being a train line was extremely slim. And I know if I fought to have a greenway (as hard as the Quiet Man greenway crew are) I would fight tooth and nail against it becoming a train line again.

There has never been a case of a greenway returning to use as a rail. I found no case of it. Not even in the United States where rail to trail has been a thing for years

end of the road · 20-12-2019 8:07pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

The bit of the wrc that has been reopened, the owners now want to close! At least it would be less of a burden on the taxpayer.

and that is exactly why it shouldn't close. what the owner wants should have no relevance given their record.
it's closure would actually create more of a burden on the tax payer more likely, by increasing car traffic, which galway especially cannot afford to have any more of.
the line is doing well, numbers seem to be growing, and this is coming from someone who once was a detracter in terms of reopening it.

21-12-2019 3:17am

Greaney wrote: »

It was mentioned at the meeting that the likelihood that a greenway would ever go back to being a train line was extremely slip. And I know if I fought to have a greenway (as hard as the Quiet Man greenway crew are) I would fight tooth and nail against it becoming a train line again.

There has never been a case of a greenway returning to use as a rail. I found no case of it. Not even in the United States where rail to trail has been a thing for years

Sigh, the mind honestly boggles at the logic of some of the recent posts. If you continue to base your arguments on the comments of Gerry Murray then you are doing yourself and Athenry a serious disservice.

In the event of both the greenway using the alignment until such time as a rail route becoming viable and such viability existing, the following would be the sequence of events

1. The leaseholder would inform the relevant councils that the line will become active.
2. The councils, leaseholder, locals, government etc all work together to provide land to the left or right of the alignment for the greenway as its been a proven success and to do so at this stage would only increase the overall cost of reopening the line by a minor amount as land acquisition will be required in many parts.
3. EVERYTHING is torn up (this has to happen no matter what), right down to the foundations, in stages, with the new line being laid and the greenway being realigned alongside a la road realignments.
4. Rail / greenway opens, job done

Literally nobody would give if toss if the greenway had to move a few meters left or right.

As for lines not reopening once converted to greenways, the lines utilised so far are all ones that were not economical in the first place and closed because they were not viable. You know, the same way that the canals closed for business when the trains came along.

The greenway is not opposed to the line reopening. If its going to be opened next year great, go ahead and lay a greenway beside it.

It is opposed to the disused line laying idle for another 43 years. While there are emotional reasons while you might want the line reopened, there is literally no valid, economically sound, fact based argument to open the line currently. Until there is, it needs to be used for something.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

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