College and University......the only option

KwackerJack · 06-07-2017 11:03am #1

I have been hearing a lot from friends and family about the future of their sons and daughters and its seems to point to college and university as the only option to gain a successful well paid job.......but is this really true!!

I didn't go to college or university and I am in a good job and paid well enough to live and fund my dream of becoming a pilot. I didn't need a college or a university background to help me.....Would I have been better off if I did.

It's all about job satisfaction.

I am currently training to be a pilot and could spend from 60k to 100k on pilot training to then start off on the same salary I am currently on should an airline accept me.

But to me flying is not just a job, its a passion. I would rather be a pilot and earn 60k than be in a 100k job wishing I was a pilot. Pilots are mostly paid very well and if you are not living way beyond your means most pilots are living very comfortable lives with minimum financial stress

Tradesmen can be very successful and their company's / business can be very profitable if they have their business head screwed on. They are also very passionate about their work yet when Johnny gets 600 points in his leaving and tells mammy & daddy he wants to be a plumber they collapse with shock.........why??

There is way to much emphasis on higher education as the only way to succeed in life and this is just wrong.

Students put themselves under serious stress to get enough points for their preferred course to then drop out as they then realise the job they wanted is not what they actually wanted.

For students who don't get enough points a lot do not know that at 23 you can apply as a mature student. This allows you to study your preferred field without needing the LC points........makes you wonder why you stressed so much during the leaving.

Applying as a mature student can be very beneficial as you are now a bit older and you may have a better idea of what career you really want and also if you finish school at 17 you have 6 years of real world experience to help you decide your future path. In those 6 years you could have travelled or worked many different jobs where one if those jobs could be the one you have a passion for.

I just thinks kids are forced into education and choosing a career well before they really know what they want.

Grayson · 06-07-2017 11:10am

So your point is that you don't need college. You can spend far more money to become a pilot?

KwackerJack · 06-07-2017 11:13am

Grayson wrote: »

So your point is that you don't need college. You can spend far more money to become a pilot?

Oh dear

No, my point is do the job you want...not what society thinks you want. Yes I have to spend money to be a pilot but it's a small price for a well paid dream job.

Are you genuinely happy in your job?

seamus · 06-07-2017 11:15am

It depends on what it is that you fancy doing.

Obviously there are some jobs you can't get without going to college. But for most you don't.

It's a leg-up for the most part and provides a good solid theoretical grounding in topics, that someone won't get if they go straight into the workforce.

People have always been forced into picking a career. In fact, it's only recently that it's started to become the norm that people wouldn't pick a career straight out of school or wouldn't stay with the same job for their whole life.

We've started to recognise that being successful and making loads of money is pointless if you don't enjoy what you do. You only get one life to live, you don't get to the end and get to do it all over again with the money that you've made.

In terms of whether someone should go to college - if there's a topic that you enjoy or a path that you want to follow, then going to college to learn about it is a good idea.

If you have no idea what you want to do, then going to college and leaving with a degree in english is a waste of your time. Go do something you might enjoy and then you can go to college later on.

thelad95 · 06-07-2017 11:16am

Not the only option, but brainwashing young people that Bill Cullen and Mark Zuckerberg didn't finish college and both were at one stage worth eight figures is also wrong. Things become significantly more difficult if you don't have a degree or training of some sort. The vast majority in this category wouldn't have the knowledge or smarts to succeed in any meaningful way and would probably end up in some soul destroying close to minimum wage dredgery for their 'careers'.

padd b1975 · 06-07-2017 11:16am

Academic snobbery.

....... · 06-07-2017 11:18am

This post has been deleted.

seamus · 06-07-2017 11:21am

thelad95 wrote: »

Not the only option, but brainwashing young people that Bill Cullen and Mark Zuckerberg didn't finish college and both were at one stage worth eight figures is also wrong. Things become significantly more difficult if you don't have a degree or training of some sort. The vast majority in this category wouldn't have the knowledge or smarts to succeed in any meaningful way and would probably end up in some soul destroying close to minimum wage dredgery for their 'careers'.

This is true. Practically all of these "college drop-out" success stories are people who dropped out of college either because it was getting the way of the millions of dollars they were making, or because college was too slow and boring for them.

Very few of these insanely rich people dropped out because they were incapable of doing the work.

It's meant to be a simple, "Don't worry, college isn't the be-all and end-all", but it unfortunately is used by people to fool themselves into thinking they can be successful without putting the work in.

seachto7 · 06-07-2017 11:29am

I should have done a trade.

osarusan · 06-07-2017 11:32am

The idea that 'if you have no idea what you want to do, going to university might help you find out' is fairly flawed.

Especially Irish universities, where you are locked into a small number of subjects straight away. I'd say that's a big factor in the dropout rate.

US style courses, which allow you more freedom to pick and choose for a couple of years before narrowing your focus, might work better for those people.

Transition year is an attempt to get students more real-world experience before they make these decisions, but it isn't enough.

Sugar Free · 06-07-2017 11:47am

It's certainly not a guaranteed route to success but the better educated you are, generally the more options you will have.

So from that point of view, it makes complete sense that parents would encourage university education for their children so that they have more choices, whether that be purely chasing job satisfaction, great work/life balance, a high salary or (ideally) a combination of all of the above.

And of course every person has a different idea of what well paid is.

endacl · 06-07-2017 11:49am

KwackerJack wrote: »

Oh dear

No, my point is do the job you want...not what society thinks you want. Yes I have to spend money to be a pilot but it's a small price for a well paid dream job.

Are you genuinely happy in your job?

What if the job you want is dentist?

valoren · 06-07-2017 11:59am

I keep thinking back to secondary school.
We never did a transition year. It was all study, books, points, Uni focused.
TY is looked at by students, who are given the opportunity to do it, as a doss year.
A year off. But it is actually the most important year in a young persons life.

Any transition year worth it's salt would expose the students to as wide a variety of careers/experiences as possible.
I would have loved to have had that year, away from the books, to do such things as;

Where each week you would focus on a range of tasks which focus on as wide a variety of skill sets as possible;
Working on a prototype engine. Display a working knowledge of it.
Preparing a Power Point presentation on *something*.
Write a computer program.
Bake a cake. Cook a meal etc
Participate in the production of a short play.
Make a short film/animation.
Study a case of law and be shown how the case was brought together, resolved etc
Create a product idea/show how it could be marketed
Attend talks by visitors from a variety of careers
etc etc

TY ought to be an intensive year. Sure I'd have hated 90% of it with a passion, but it would have taken just one positive experience for me, that one part that made me excited for me to know what I wanted to do and focus on getting a college course or a job relating to it based on that experience.

ToddyDoody · 06-07-2017 12:46pm

KwackerJack wrote: »

I didn't go to college or university and I am in a good job and paid well enough to live and fund my dream of becoming a pilot. I didn't need a college or a university background to help me.....Would I have been better off if I did.

Did you never hear... trinnerz are winnerz.

Status is linked to educational attainment. I think in Ireland you need to have some sort of a degree to be classed in the abc1 demographic.

I don't have the ireland classifications but a general explanation is here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade

So education is seen as one of those aspirational things, but is expensive and often demanding.

cajonlardo · 06-07-2017 1:56pm

Horses for Courses.

I am extremely grateful the Surgeon who saved me from paralysis had a superb education and that the Engineer who designed my car's brake system spent a few years in uni.
However, no one ever complained that I had no degree when I was cutting them out of a crashed car or when I was on military duties.

We'd be in trouble without our mechanics or plumbers and it'd be a dull world without our singers or artists. The Surgeon and Engineer and School Teacher would find it hard going if the labourer didn't show up to repair the road the drive on and whatever you do don't move the staff from my favourite coffee shop because they can change a day for the better

Roger Hassenforder · 06-07-2017 2:18pm

If you have a passion to fly, it's a no brainer.
College is one option, there are several others. E.g Apprenticeships.
There is a snobbery element to third level education, but it's not the only option for a kid. That said, a degree might open doors that might be shut to those without one.

Badly Drunk Boy · 06-07-2017 3:14pm

A lad I work with, fairly intelligent, decided that he didn't want to go to college. His parents and career guidance counsellor went mad! He stuck with his decision to train as an electrician. 20 years later, he's the best electrician we have in the factory.

Wanderer78 · 06-07-2017 3:20pm

Again! Dreadful educational system that's biased towards the world of academia, yes you can make it in life without the degree etc, and very well at times

Mardy Bum · 06-07-2017 3:43pm

Trades are as good an option as university for a lot of students. More money to be made in trades than in most public sector professions as well.

If you can be a good tradesman and a good business man you will be far wealthier than most professions.

thelad95 · 06-07-2017 3:56pm

Trades are still a qualification, usually level 6 or 7, I think what the OP was mainly referring too is people who have no training or qualification of any sort.

I really don't understand the snobbery towards learning a trade, all those people who go to work in the IFSC would still be ****ting in buckets if it weren't for plumbers, who I'm sure are called in to do regular works and repairs.

But as I said earlier, if you have no formal training or qualifications, chances are you won't go very far.

CIP4 · 06-07-2017 9:33pm

My Dad has a terrible habit of this more so in recent years to him a college degree is everything. I only finished 4 years of engineering last year. Since I was a young child all I ever wanted to be was an engineer it never changed. However I would have a very different view to him though I really don't care whether someone has been to college or not as long as you like what you are doing and have a bit of passion for it that's all that counts it really doesn't matter if that means you work in a bar, as a hairdresser, as a bin man, doctor or lecturer. I have said this to my dad a good few times.

In my case my degree made finding a good job very easy. I am on a very good salary for my age (23) along with a good few decent perks. But I actually like what I do which is most important thing to me. As the Op said you would be far better of in a job you like with half the salary vs one you hate with a high salary. While money helps (its a lot easier to cry in a Mercedes than on a push bike) it's not everything.

[Deleted User] · 06-07-2017 9:49pm

If you want to be a plumber or an electrician or a mechanic or any number of other essential jobs, get an apprenticeship or whatever training you need.

If you want to be a teacher or a barrister or an engineer or an architect, go to university and gain the appropriate qualification.

You can certainly do very well in any number of jobs without a degree, but you are likely to earn more in careers that require them. Earnings aren't everything, so do whatever will bring you the most satisfaction and happiness.

Some people thrive on stress, some don't, some love a challenge and some like easy going routines, there isn't one size fits all and the only thing you really need out of work is enough renumeration to pay your bills and enough enjoyment not to dread going to work in Monday mornings.

Arcade_Tryer · 06-07-2017 9:49pm

CIP4 wrote: »

While money helps (its a lot easier to cry in a Mercedes than on a push bike) it's not everything.

Give me a bicycle rather than a Merc around the city centre any day!

You're right though. And those who say money isn't everything are right; Money isn't everything. Not having it is. And in Ireland, on average, the most reliable way for most people to make a decent amount of money is by attaining third level qualifications. In fact I think I saw a graph recently which shows the significance of having a degree versus not having a degree is highest in Ireland out of all developing countries, including the US. That is frightening.

pauliebdub · 06-07-2017 9:55pm

Because degrees are so commonplace these days, thousands graduate each year with a ****e arts degree that they've become devalued. Do something that you're passionate about and that will help you find a job at the end of it.

DivingDuck · 07-07-2017 3:25am

osarusan wrote: »

Especially Irish universities, where you are locked into a small number of subjects straight away. I'd say that's a big factor in the dropout rate.

US style courses, which allow you more freedom to pick and choose for a couple of years before narrowing your focus, might work better for those people.

Plenty of people have the opposite experience, though. I struggled in secondary school, both academically and in terms of just to wanting to bother with life at all, in large part due to being forced to spend so many of my waking hours pursuing studies in fields I had no interest in.

Scraped my way into college to do a course I was interested in, and sailed through it. Sailed. Followed this up with two rounds of graduate studies, and sailed through those, too.

Forcing people to study such a broad spectrum of topics at secondary level has its pitfalls, much less at third level. I can guarantee you I would have been a college drop-out if I'd had to take more years of courses I wasn't interested in. I doubt I'd be the only one.

Victor · 07-07-2017 9:00am

KwackerJack wrote: »

I am currently training to be a pilot and could spend from 60k to 100k on pilot training to then start off on the same salary I am currently on should an airline accept me.

Will you go to pilot college?

[Deleted User] · 07-07-2017 9:52am

It can and it can't.

I have no college degree or qualifications in my chosen employment. Instead I took a step back and took on an internship with no experience required at all. This has turned into a full-time job with many prospects on the horizon if I wanted. In many professions, experience can be used in lieu of qualifications.

Obviously this method can't be applied to all industries; I wouldn't want a surgeon who one day picked up a scalpel and made their way from there.

KwackerJack · 07-07-2017 11:44am

Victor wrote: »

Will you go to pilot college?

I am currently training but taking the modular route rather than the full time college route and there are a few reasons for this.

1) I don't have a 72k lump to hand over to a school. ( I Don't recommend it )

2) I need to continue to work to fund my training and pay bills.

3) You can complete the same training modular for a lot less then 72k if you plan your training

4) when in a school as an integrated student your restricted to staying with the school and within Ireland during your training (afaik) please feel free to quote me on this.

5) As a modular pilot you have the freedom of flying where you want once you have a PPL and this is where you gain your 100+ hours needed to continue onto the commercial training however unlike the integrated pilot you gain a ton of experience flying in different countries, airspace etc. This experience is vital for an airline pilot and will look great on your record.

Are you looking into becoming an airline pilot? If so mail me and I cam give you all the info

mr.anonymous · 07-07-2017 11:16pm

Education has become too much like a factory conveyor belt, just creating someone for a job. What about building unique, thoughtful individuals and citizens?

An experience similar to TY, where you are exposed to things you may not want to pursue, is useful and opens your eyes. In my experience doing a bachelors degree, the same applied. There were a lot of modules that were largely irrelevant if not painfully boring, but the experience of having learned something new is worthwhile in itself (even if I only appreciate it now two years after I finished college).

Proper, enriching education should be more individualised. Looking back at secondary school, there were so many disengaged students who gave up on learning because their strenghts were in something other than retaining and repeating essays.

paudgenator · 07-07-2017 11:51pm

thelad95 wrote: »

Not the only option, but brainwashing young people that Bill Cullen and Mark Zuckerberg didn't finish college and both were at one stage worth eight figures is also wrong. Things become significantly more difficult if you don't have a degree or training of some sort. The vast majority in this category wouldn't have the knowledge or smarts to succeed in any meaningful way and would probably end up in some soul destroying close to minimum wage dredgery for their 'careers'.

I find this train of thought is very particular to Ireland. My partner & I didn't get degrees, worked straight from school then included study when older. We are both doing just fine and enjoy our lives.

Our daughter always wanted to go to uni - she also works part time; our son always said he did not want to go on to uni so is working full time and studying part time..I have no doubt both will do fine.

So many drop out of uni in 1st or 2nd year because it is difficult to know what to do after the huge pressure put on them for the Leaving Cert.

Each to their own...I'd rather my children enjoy what they do and motivate themselves to be happy...a degree does not make everyone happy or good at their job.

tomwaterford · 08-07-2017 8:49am

Trades are terribly paid in ireland though,i had 10+ years experience and still earned less per hour than what id have gotten to walk straight into lidl for any starting job

Only i loved my job,suited me and had plenty overtime 70+hours a couple months of the year (no time and half etc though)....id not stuck at it

Recommending lads do apprenticeships without liking their job is as bad as telling lads to head off to college,except much less of a social life

College and University......the only option

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