A little help needed - thanks!

ria2011 · 07-10-2013 11:27pm #1

Hi I posted this in creative writing but I'm actually thinking that somebody here might be better able to advise me!

I'm writing a story and I just want to get
my facts straight!

So... as part of my happy ending my heroine comes across an old letter with
information that an antiquity has been buried in an ancient family grave. I'm not quite sure how she is going to
access it yet, but does she need to?

Can she just go to the National museum and reveal the old letter? Or must she dig it up herself (how, I don't know!) in
order to be eligible for a reward?!

Thanks in advance, I had a bit of a
google alright, but short of emailing the National museum I couldn't find the
relevant information!

iverjohnston · 07-10-2013 11:43pm

If I am reading this right, your hero has the letter detailing the location of the buried item.
i would say that unless the buried item is something like a stolen national treasure (ardagh chalice for example) the National Museum would not be getting involved looking for exhumation orders for what could be a wild goose chase. Your hero is going to have to dig it up themselves, preferably at night .
Exhumation orders very difficult to get.
My Uncles grave was dug by the undertakers staff, and they opened the wrong one, same family name on the headstone, wrong plot. Only when the cortege arrived at the grave side did my aunt realize the mistake. Funeral had to be cancelled till next day. Clergy man told her that it was a very good thing she noticed when she did, as if the coffin had been lowered below ground level, even momentarily, a court order would be required to lift it up again.

ria2011 · 08-10-2013 12:12am

Thanks IverJohnston!
Hmmmm maybe I should make it a national treasure so!!! Digging in a graveyard at night could be very dramatic though! The plot thickens! Thanks a million :-)

ria2011 · 08-10-2013 12:17am

Ps: thank God your aunt noticed in time. That would have been a nightmare!

Just thinking about your idea again...if I went with the national treasure idea, and it was a stolen antiquity, would my heroine receive a reward in that case? The reward is imperative to saving the day, you see! Surely, she wouldn't be entitled to one....or, would the information leading to it's retrieval be rewarded by the National museum? Hmmm I'm so glad I posted my question - you've given me a lot to think about!!!

iverjohnston · 08-10-2013 12:33am

Your problem is , there are not many National Treasures in Ireland, as most are only quite recently accepted as thus, in the last 80 to 100 years . And therefore its unlikely one would be buried in an old grave for decades. Also, as far as I am aware, unlike the UK, these is no such thing as Treasure Trove in this State, whereby the finder gets a % of the value of the item. The State just takes it.
Sorry if that is a bit negative!

iverjohnston · 08-10-2013 12:41am

Perhaps something from another country?
Chinese Ming dynasty porcelain, very valuable now,
Something from Imperial Russia?
South African Krugerands?, Cape Diamonds?
Alternative version of the American Declaration of Independence?
Something a collector or Government would dearly love to have. Just don't go all Clive Cussler with it !

Gee Bag · 08-10-2013 2:13am

Hi OP,

Couple of points fot ya. In Ireland we don't legally categorise individual artefacts as national treaures. They are all considered to be of equal value. If excavated after 1930 they are property of the state. As stated above the law of treasure trove does not exist in the republic.

Other poster is right to state that you would need a licence to exhume a recently buried corpse. I think the coroner issues this licence, but I'm not 100% sure. If the burial is old enough then she would need an archaeological excavation licence. There is no exact time limit on when human remains can be considered archaeological. I have excavated human remains which were relativley recent (maybe 30-50 years old) under an archaeological excavation licence. They had been interred in medieval cemetery that we were working on).

If your heroine was to call the National Museum to report her find she might her self in a spot of legal bother rather than getting a reward. She would have carried out an unlicensed archaeological excavation. While the museum do give rewrds for some finds, its for items found by accident (eg the faddenmore psalter) and not for items found by treasure hunters.

Sorry if all this is more confusing than helpful! You might get some useful info at www.archaeology.ie

Best of luck with the story.

Gee Bag · 08-10-2013 2:21am

Just a thought, but maybe if your heroine was to find the treaure in a burial vault or mausoleum rather than in a grave or a coffin she might be able to get around her potential legal difficulties and collect a big fat cheque from the museum!

gobnaitolunacy · 08-10-2013 11:18am

What was the largest amount paid out by the National Museum for a find I wonder?

Jawgap · 08-10-2013 11:54am

ria2011 wrote: »

Ps: thank God your aunt noticed in time. That would have been a nightmare!

Just thinking about your idea again...if I went with the national treasure idea, and it was a stolen antiquity, would my heroine receive a reward in that case? The reward is imperative to saving the day, you see! Surely, she wouldn't be entitled to one....or, would the information leading to it's retrieval be rewarded by the National museum? Hmmm I'm so glad I posted my question - you've given me a lot to think about!!!

It would be straightforward to get an exhumation order for a close family member.

You could muddy up the provenance of the item - artifacts acquired during World War II are occasionally the subject of detailed negotiations and claims as to who 'owns' them - especially if the original owner and their family perished in the War.

If WWII doesn't suit your timeline, there are plenty of others:)

James McEvoy can play me in the adaptation. Good luck!

iverjohnston · 08-10-2013 12:01pm

There was a Sue Grafton with a theme involving a crypt and a key, can't remember which one it was.

Gee Bag · 08-10-2013 9:39pm

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

What was the largest amount paid out by the National Museum for a find I wonder?

I can't remember the amount offhand, but there was a substantial payout for the finders of the Derrynaflan hoard in the early 80's. This case went all the way to the supreme court, if you want to google it the case is Webb v Ireland. The reason for the court case was because the finders had used a metal detector on the site of a national monument.

About £100,000 was paid to the divers who 'found' the Lough Kinale book shrine in 1987. Again, a metal detector was used. (its many years since I saw the files for this, so I'm very much open to correction)

The upshot of all this was the introduction of a new national monuments act to deter unqualified people using metal detectors and digging holes looking for treasure (i.e. unlicensed archaeological excavation) at archaeological or other sites.

The museum are reticent about making public how much they reward finders in order to deter tresure hunting and they won't give any reward for artefacts incovered illegaly.

P.S. archaeologists carrying out a licensed excavation or MD survey don't get any reward.

ria2011 · 09-10-2013 1:26am

Thank you all very much for all your advice! You've given me lots of ideas for twists and turns in the story!
And such an interesting thread has ensued! :-)

ria2011 · 14-10-2013 4:52pm

Right, I'm back with another question for you knowledgeable folk, if you don't mind!

GeeBag said up above that antiquities found after 1930 belong to the State. What about antiquities found before 1930?

My timeline is around the time of the Rising and just before it, when Ireland was under English rule ........so let's say the antiquity was buried for safekeeping in a grave THEN to protect it...then along comes my heroine in the present day to find out that this treasure exists - would the State automatically lay claim to it OR could my heroine legally uncover it (let's say by archaeological excavation license, as suggested again by GeeBag) and then she could bequeath it to the State (thereby becoming a heroine!) ?

Would that be plausible?!
Thanks! I do appreciate all your help! :-)

Gee Bag · 14-10-2013 6:11pm

Here's a case that might be of interest....

http://www.museum.ie/en/news/press-releases.aspx?article=c0a3c873-988a-4c16-9228-fa7462d30ecf

Gee Bag · 14-10-2013 6:15pm

There is also the (somewhat dotty) woman involved in the discovery of Richard III's remains, doc is well worth watching if you have the time.

A little help needed - thanks!

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