Strokestown Mod Note in Post #4461

end of the road · 17-12-2018 9:02pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So instead of a private company evicting someone (though why anyone has an issue with this I don't know, it's an issue between a private company and its customer) , the Gardai should do the bidding of a private company looking to recover debts? And your ok with that?

Or is it just so rent a mobs can line up and chant at the Gardai for having nothing better to be doing and asking them are they proud of themselves?

it's better then hired goons. not ideal but preferible. the issue is that law enforcement must only be enforced by enforcers of the state, directly employed by the state. private goons for hire are not legitimate enforcers of the state in my view. the gardai on the other hand, are.

klaaaz · 17-12-2018 9:03pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Gardai are there to prevent a breach of the peace.
That is it. They should not be involved

They should protect the elderly from illegal home invasions by a bunch of roaming and out of control loyalist thugs.

Lefty Bicek · 17-12-2018 9:03pm

awec wrote: »

UDR.

Can we at least use the right acronyms here? One is a paramilitary organization, the other is a former regiment of the British Army. One still exists, the other hasn't existed for over over 25 years.

Which one was Ian Gordon in ?

blueythebear · 17-12-2018 9:04pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Civil contempt is regarded as an offence. If you defy an order in the civil courts, you are now guilty of a criminal act.

If you defy an order of the court, then an application must be brought to the court and it must be shown that you received the order or were aware of it and still refused to comply. You must also be informed that a failure to obey the order could result in imprisonment (committal), via a penal endorsement on the order when it's served on you. Only then can the Court declare you in contempt and only then, if you continue to refuse to obey the order can you deemed to be acting criminally. It's completely a civil matter albeit with sanctions usually reserved for criminal law.

Fann Linn · 17-12-2018 9:04pm

awec wrote: »

UDR.

Can we at least use the right acronyms here? One is a paramilitary organization, the other is a former regiment of the British Army. One still exists, the other hasn't existed for over over 25 years.

Im old enough to remember when they were both closely intertwined. One and the same.

tuxy · 17-12-2018 9:04pm

bubblypop wrote: »

You want to see gardai acting as personal debt collectors? Forcing people to leave their homes?
There is enough animosity towards Gardai without employing them to carry out evictions.

I see no problem in Garda observing a legitimate eviction to ensure there is no violence by either side.
What happened this time was that they were there to support violence by one side and ready to step in if the other side retaliated.

Muscles Schultz · 17-12-2018 9:04pm

klaaaz wrote: »

They should protect the elderly from illegal home invasions by a bunch of roaming and out of control loyalist thugs.

Don’t be worrying about those tans they’ll be put up the yard again and won’t be back

hatrickpatrick · 17-12-2018 9:04pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

How does anyone think it's sensible to try this eviction again when tensions are so high.

Just to be clear, I am 100% anti-eviction and I'm not arguing for trying it again - I am merely stating that I entirely object to the involvement of private security thugs in enforcing any type of court order. So if we must have these incidents - and I would still support people resisting them - it should be the public law enforcement of our state, which is accountable to the government, the public, and several independent oversight bodies, as opposed to some random and unknown thugs.

kravmaga · 17-12-2018 9:04pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Sheriff's not involved by all accounts. Just a dodgy security firm with dodgy employees and now appears with a dodgy court order.
Glad you're happy with it.

And another dodgy issue is the 8 heavies legality to operate in ROI without a PSA licence.

They may have had the SIA licence which covers NI and UK only , not in the ROI.

That said what legal authority and basis have these heavies at the scene of the the initial Tuesday eviction, Im sure the Garda at the house checked their creditionals or did they, was a blind eye turned and no company in IRELAND would want to be associated or do the dirty work of physically removing the evictees from the house, bad PR especially coming up to Xmas.

https://www.get-licensed.co.uk/licence/security-guard-licence

awec · 17-12-2018 9:05pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Which one was Ian Gordon in ?

UDR I believe I saw somewhere at the start of this thread (I stand to be corrected).

Dyr · 17-12-2018 9:05pm

awec wrote: »

UDR.

Can we at least use the right acronyms here? One is a paramilitary organization, the other is a former regiment of the British Army. One still exists, the other hasn't existed for over over 25 years.

In fairness, there was a good bit of overlap in membership between the two :P

tuxy · 17-12-2018 9:06pm

Bambi wrote: »

In fairness, there was a good bit of overlap in membership between the two :P

Massive overlap in IRA members and MI5 agents too. It's far too confusing.

blueythebear · 17-12-2018 9:07pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Apparently not, it seems that the loyalist security firm produced a letter with bank lettering without no actual names of the family on it, there was no actual court order from an actual court!. An illegal eviction on the day.

Again, it was the Sheriff that evicted the family. The Sheriff does not do so without being satisfied that there is a Court Order. Seriously, common sense is flying out the window with statements like this. A letter from a Bank will not convince the Sheriffs' Office and the Gardai that they have the right to takke possession of a property

awec · 17-12-2018 9:08pm

Bambi wrote: »

In fairness, there was a good bit of overlap in membership between the two :P

Probably, but the mixing up is annoying my OCD.

awec · 17-12-2018 9:08pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Just to be clear, I am 100% anti-eviction and I'm not arguing for trying it again - I am merely stating that I entirely object to the involvement of private security thugs in enforcing any type of court order. So if we must have these incidents - and I would still support people resisting them - it should be the public law enforcement of our state, which is accountable to the government, the public, and several independent oversight bodies, as opposed to some random and unknown thugs.

Who do you think hired these guys?

hatrickpatrick · 17-12-2018 9:09pm

blueythebear wrote: »

If you defy an order of the court, then an application must be brought to the court and it must be shown that you received the order or were aware of it and still refused to comply. You must also be informed that a failure to obey the order could result in imprisonment (committal), via a penal endorsement on the order when it's served on you. Only then can the Court declare you in contempt and only then, if you continue to refuse to obey the order can you deemed to be acting criminally. It's completely a civil matter albeit with sanctions usually reserved for criminal law.

And that's exactly the procedure which should be followed in the case of evictions or repossessions which are defied. At no point should any private citizens, in any capacity, be legally authorised to engage in the kind of violence shown in the video of the eviction. Use of violent force in any capacity other than self defence is supposed to be the exclusive province of the state, and even then only in very limited circumstances.

What I'm saying is that if anyone - security company or not - behaves in the manner that the individuals shown in the video behaved, they should be immediately arrested for assault. Nobody should be "authorised" to behave in this manner, unless they are police officers doing so within the strict parameters in which such physical force is permitted by them.

Drifter50 · 17-12-2018 9:09pm

arctictree wrote: »

If this guy owes the revenue 400K in 2015, how come KBC comes after him first? Surely the revenue should have forced the sale before now?

Revenue will never do that. They do not evict people from their homes. The Revenue have an order of last resort that in the event of establishing that the tax payer / home owner has no liquid assets or otherwise assets then they attach an order to the property so that when at some stage in the future if and when the taxpayer / home owner dies they can then enforce the sale of the property and they have 1st call on the proceeds ahead of any will.

This has happened numerous times

Fann Linn · 17-12-2018 9:09pm

blueythebear wrote: »

Again, it was the Sheriff that evicted the family. The Sheriff does not do so without being satisfied that there is a Court Order. Seriously, common sense is flying out the window with statements like this. A letter from a Bank will not convince the Sheriffs' Office and the Gardai that they have the right to takke possession of a property

You sure of that. Because to date in this case there is no mention of any Sheriff being involved? Genuine question.

hatrickpatrick · 17-12-2018 9:09pm

awec wrote: »

Who do you think hired these guys?

I'm assuming it was the bank. If it was the cops or another arm of the state, that is even more scandalous.

Lefty Bicek · 17-12-2018 9:10pm

blueythebear wrote: »

Again, it was the Sheriff that evicted the family. The Sheriff does not do so without being satisfied that there is a Court Order. Seriously, common sense is flying out the window with statements like this. A letter from a Bank will not convince the Sheriffs' Office and the Gardai that they have the right to takke possession of a property

Can you verify that ?

Not everyone here is making that assumption.

blinding · 17-12-2018 9:11pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

RTÉ reporting the family are BACK in the house tonight.

They interviewed some village idiot outside the house who said he didn’t know anything about court judgments or if the family were in contempt of court.

I’ll have you know that we have had Village idiots as Taoiseachs in this Country .

tuxy · 17-12-2018 9:13pm

I'd like to see some info on the court case, I believe there should be a record of it but can not find it.

I would also like to see a record of the Sheriff being present at the eviction. Again I can find no info of this.

How has the reporting of this by news outlets been so poor?

kravmaga · 17-12-2018 9:14pm

blinding wrote: »

I’ll have you know that we have had Village idiots as Taoiseachs in this Country .

And who would that be ?

awec · 17-12-2018 9:15pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm assuming it was the bank. If it was the cops or another arm of the state, that is even more scandalous.

If there was a court order then it was the sheriff.

If there was no court order then all bets are off, in which case this is an illegal eviction and the individual in question is quite rightly back in his property. I would be pretty much astounded if this was true.

The third option is there was a court order that has subsequently been found to contain some loop hole.

Drifter50 · 17-12-2018 9:16pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Apparently not, it seems that the loyalist security firm produced a letter with bank lettering without no actual names of the family on it, there was no actual court order from an actual court!. An illegal eviction on the day.

I heard this too and on the local jungle drums. There will be ructions here

STB. · 17-12-2018 9:17pm

kravmaga wrote: »

And another dodgy issue is the 8 heavies legality to operate in ROI without a PSA licence.

They may have had the SIA licence which covers NI and UK only , not in the ROI.

That said what legal authority and basis have these heavies at the scene of the the initial Tuesday eviction, Im sure the Garda at the house checked their creditionals or did they, was a blind eye turned and no company in IRELAND would want to be associated or do the dirty work of physically removing the evictees from the house, bad PR especially coming up to Xmas.

https://www.get-licensed.co.uk/licence/security-guard-licence

Their credentials if even held are irrelevant in ROI. They knew this and so should have Cabot.

Security involved in the execution of High Court orders are not licensable by the Private Security Authority in ROI.

Ask Charlie Flanagan what he is doing to remedy that.

The retired member of AGS who was dragged along the ground saw no court orders according to interviews with the press and he will have seen many I would imagine in his 30 years service. And if that is true, then what were these idiots doing and why weren't they checked by the members of AGS standing idly by.

end of the road · 17-12-2018 9:18pm

bubblypop wrote: »

What difference does this make?

a massive one in my view. to me it is effectively sensoring the full happenings of the event.

bubblypop wrote: »

Absolutely no way should Gardai be involved in civil matters.
The police of the land cannot & never should be involved in throwing people out of their homes.

It is civil court, civil matter, dealt with by the sheriff & whoever he sees fit to employ.

well then we should have another state force to do it. either way, no private companies.

hatrickpatrick · 17-12-2018 9:19pm

awec wrote: »

If there was a court order then it was the sheriff.

So the sheriff, responsible for enforcing debt rulings made by the courts of the Irish state, hires private security goons to enforce them?

Yeah, that should clearly be illegal. It should be up to state employees, AKA Gardai, to perform these functions. At no point should any private individual be legally allowed to use this kind of physical violence, that should be the exclusive province of people employed by - and accountable to - the democratic republic, AKA the Irish state.

blinding · 17-12-2018 9:19pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

How does anyone think it's sensible to try this eviction again when tensions are so high.

Surely , they are not going to even try to put them out again before Christmas .

Is Hitler the Public relations officer for this crowd ?

Fann Linn · 17-12-2018 9:20pm

awec wrote: »

If there was a court order then it was the sheriff.

If there was no court order then all bets are off, in which case this is an illegal eviction and the individual in question is quite rightly back in his property. I would be pretty much astounded if this was true.

The third option is there was a court order that has subsequently been found to contain some loop hole.

If it is an illegal eviction could the Gardai be found complicit considering they oversaw it all?

Strokestown **Mod Note in Post #4461**

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Strokestown Mod Note in Post #4461