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Muslim views on the West attacking ISIS.

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  • 14-11-2015 8:44pm
    #1
    RoyalCelt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭


    I've been reading a lot of heated debates over the past 24 hours for obvious reasons.

    One argument has stuck out though. Initially it began with people pointing out the lines in the Quaran that state it's OK to kill people etc etc.

    But then Muslims pointed out the context which they're written, and that view point after looking into it I sort of agree. They went on and pointed out how ISIS don't represent them and they want them gone. ISIS kills more of them than they kill westerners. They hate them. Fair point.

    But many of these same people would then say that the West brings this on itself through its military actions in Syria and other past conflicts. However without support of the West and it's middle eastern allies these people won't be able to defeat ISIS.

    So why are they so against the West attacking ISIS in Syria? Surely they should be supporting the West in their actions.

    You can't have it both ways so which is it.


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    #2
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭donaghs


    It's a good question, but only really relevant to Sunni. Since ISIS don't consider Shia to be Muslims, or worthy of living, you can guess the answer there.


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    #3
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Muslims are not unified some support the west a lot don't and don't even bother with the Islamists that want to forget the rest of the world exists. A lot of this has got to do with the fact that Islamic societies are very bitter and hostile to neighbouring cultures like the Jews of Israel or the Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists of India. Islam needs to modernise and confront the traditionalist in their own back gardens.


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    #4
    Disgruntled Badger
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Disgruntled Badger


    And to think we used to say the troubles were complicated. The US' key ally Saudi is funding the Mosques in Europe that breed Whabbist IS fighters that target the west. It's all so orwellian really....the constant war in the East preserving the status quo by keeping that threat of instability. I don't think the law abiding Muslims living in Europe have any influence one way or another... IS hate them, just as much, or even more, than us..


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    #5
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Mod Note
    Just a nudg away from politics please.
    Remember the forum is here to
    Per charters first line:
    This forum is for the discussion of the religion of Islam only.

    So as that pertains to the original OP that's fine, but if the thread continues down the politics route we'll find another more suitable home for it.

    Thanks.


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    #6
    RoyalCelt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    donaghs wrote: »
    It's a good question, but only really relevant to Sunni. Since ISIS don't consider Shia to be Muslims, or worthy of living, you can guess the answer there.

    Well it's a relief to read 85-90% of Muslims are sunni then. Are most extremists Shia Muslims?

    It would explain why the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful if true.


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    #7
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    Well it's a relief to read 85-90% of Muslims are sunni then. Are most extremists Shia Muslims?

    It would explain why the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful if true.

    I think you have this backwards in terms of extremists.

    ISIS are Sunni, not Shia, Shia Muslims are about 7.5% of the total poplulation of Muslims in the world. Extremist Sunnis consider Shia Muslims to be apostates, who should be executed.

    Hezbollah are Shia they are based in Palestine/Isreal/Iran

    ISIS come from the Wahhabi sect who are Saudi for the most part.


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    #8
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,227 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    Stheno wrote: »
    Hezbollah are Shia they are based in Palestine/Isreal/Iran
    They are Lebanese and have support from Iran.


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    #9
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    They are Lebanese and have support from Iran.

    Sorry, I should have said that they are most active in Israel/Palestine, supported by Iran, and based in Lebanon, where they have plenty of influence.

    Apologies :)

    Tis most complicated :)


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    #10
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,227 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    Stheno wrote: »
    Tis most complicated :)
    Certainly is :) - they are fighting in Syria too.


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    #11
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    However without support of the West and it's middle eastern allies these people won't be able to defeat ISIS.


    U got this one totally wrong.
    IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
    And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.
    Btw I'm muslim and can tell u than 95+% of muslims are opposed to IS, and majority of the rest support IS by realpolitik, ie they chose IS as a lesser evil...


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    #12
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    Stheno wrote: »
    ISIS come from the Wahhabi sect who are Saudi for the most part.

    wahabi sect doesnt exist, just a derogatory term parroted by people who doesnt even know the name of the founder of 'wahabism'...


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    #13
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    leo2a6 wrote: »
    U got this one totally wrong.
    IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
    And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.
    Btw I'm muslim and can tell u than 95+% of muslims are opposed to IS, and majority of the rest support IS by realpolitik, ie they chose IS as a lesser evil...

    Most surveys in the West indicate that support for IS is far higher than 5%, up to 25% in some cases, do you disagree with this?
    leo2a6 wrote: »
    wahabi sect doesnt exist, just a derogatory term parroted by people who doesnt even know the name of the founder of 'wahabism'...

    So are you saying that wahhabism does or does not exist? Or just nit picking at my use of language?Do you understand the meaning of the word sect? Do you agree or disagree that Wahhabism is an extreme/orthodox form of Islam?


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    #14
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    Stheno wrote: »
    Most surveys in the West indicate that support for IS is far higher than 5%, up to 25% in some cases, do you disagree with this?



    So are you saying that wahhabism does or does not exist? Or just nit picking at my use of language?Do you understand the meaning of the word sect? Do you agree or disagree that Wahhabism is an extreme/orthodox form of Islam?

    I disagree with ur figures, many surveys done across MENA show less than 5%.
    Majority of people killed by IS are sunni muslims.
    Wahabism does not exist indeed.


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    #15
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    leo2a6 wrote: »
    U got this one totally wrong.
    IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
    And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.
    Btw I'm muslim and can tell u than 95+% of muslims are opposed to IS, and majority of the rest support IS by realpolitik, ie they chose IS as a lesser evil...

    I absolutely do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims would be opposed to IS, as would any right thinking person, but I dread to think what IS would be a lesser evil to.


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    #16
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I dread to think what IS would be a lesser evil to.

    lesser evil to starvation, rapes, torture, tnt barrel bombs, sarin gaz, iranian death squads, shia sectarian militias, Assads shabihas.

    U probably ignore what sunni syrians and iraqis are living under
    Assad/Maliki/Iran.
    IS are total nutcases, but if u're sunni and pretend to accept their rules/leadership, they let u live, not the case with the iranian axis...

    IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.


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    #17
    rockatansky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭rockatansky


    leo2a6 wrote: »

    IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

    Utter bollocks. So are all of the Refugees fleeing from Syria just Shias?


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    #18
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    leo2a6 wrote: »
    Wahabism does not exist indeed.

    Do you accept that there ia a branch of or movement within Sunni Islam called Muwahhidun or Salafi, which some people incorrectly refer to as Wahabism?


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    #19
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    rockatansky wrote: »
    Utter bollocks. So are all of the Refugees fleeing from Syria just Shias?

    no, but who said so ?


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    #20
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    leo2a6 wrote: »
    wahabi sect doesnt exist, just a derogatory term parroted by people who doesnt even know the name of the founder of 'wahabism'...

    Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab was a 16th century (CE) Imam, the Royal House of Saud have long aligned themselves with his retro orthodox fundamentalism. You may be strictly correct to say that there is no Wahabi sect but it would be tough to be a Shia, or moderate Sunni muslim in Saudi Arabia.


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    #21
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    feargale wrote: »
    Do you accept that there ia a branch of or movement within Sunni Islam called Muwahhidun or Salafi, which some people incorrectly refer to as Wahabism?

    Muwahidun means monotheists, if u're muslim u're monotheist.
    Salafism is following Islam rigorly. Thats KSA Islam. Not ISIS one.
    I always find it funny when 'experts' call IS & KSA both 'wahabis' while KSA sees IS as heretics and fight them and IS sees KSA as non-muslims and fight them as well.


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    #22
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    Cedrus wrote: »
    Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab wa 16th century (CE) Imam, the Royal House of Saud have long aligned themselves with his retro orthodox fundamentalism. You may be strictly correct to say that there is no Wahabi sect but it would be tough to be a Shia, or moderate Sunni muslim in Saudi Arabia.

    U have never been to KSA. U speak about something u don't know.
    Ireland is full of saudi students. I studied with many of them. All were moderate sunnis or shias. Many female saudi students as well. They get 1800 euros per month + full tuition fees paid by KSA government.
    So if KSA gov is against shias or moderates, why pay a fortune for them to study ?
    Many shias officers in army and security forces. Aramco, the big saudi oil company is full of shias, americans, egyptians, u name it...

    Official doctrine of KSA is quite strict, but millions dont follow it, even in government. Does the KSA king just wear a beard ?


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    #23
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    leo2a6 wrote: »
    lesser evil to starvation, rapes, torture, tnt barrel bombs, sarin gaz, iranian death squads, shia sectarian militias, Assads shabihas.

    U probably ignore what sunni syrians and iraqis are living under
    Assad/Maliki/Iran.
    IS are total nutcases, but if u're sunni and pretend to accept their rules/leadership, they let u live, not the case with the iranian axis...

    IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

    I feel for the innocent population who are torn between bad and worse options. We like to demonise entire populations, without thinking that a lot of innocent people who have nothing to do with all that are caught up between all that hate and violence. Not ignoring anyone, I feel sorry for innocent people who have to live in a warzone and if they do escape, they are looked at as terrorists because people cannot make the distinction. It's a sad state of affairs and no one comes out of this looking good.


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    #24
    Isaiah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Isaiah


    Would you condemn last nights attacks as evil leo2a6?


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    #25
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    First you say ...
    IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
    And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.

    And then its
    leo2a6 wrote: »
    lesser evil to starvation, rapes, torture, tnt barrel bombs, sarin gaz, iranian death squads, shia sectarian militias, Assads shabihas.

    U probably ignore what sunni syrians and iraqis are living under
    Assad/Maliki/Iran.
    IS are total nutcases, but if u're sunni and pretend to accept their rules/leadership, they let u live, not the case with the iranian axis...

    IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

    These statements take responsibility for their creation and continued mission from ISIS themselves and place it on other shoulders ......or takes responsibility from those supporting them either explicitly or tacitly... It if not justifying the existence and mission of ISIS at least find excuses for it

    And its this rhetoric that is constantly spewd out that paints Muslims with a picture of suspicion for many in the West.

    It goes like this .."We deplore ISIS but hey they only exist because of the west" thus ignoring that islamic extremists were attacking the west before ISIS including New York .
    or

    "its really the Shias (or Sunnis) fault " thus perpetuating the sectarian animosity and divide.( Many Shia under say Sadam where brutally murdered and tortured but did they create a sick barbaric caliphate with a mission to destroy the west...in fact show me a people that has not suffered at the hands of another religious group)

    I am not saying that the West didn't make mistakes, (especially invading Iraq) or Russia (afterall it was their invasion of Afganistan that set Osama Bin Laden on his path, thus starting a process that eventually lead to ISIS) but to take responsibility as you chose to do from the shoulders of grown men who chose to rape 9 year old girls, murder homosexuals, behead aid workers and place it somewhere else is one of the biggest problem we have with this whole situation. There is a mentality that reeks of victimhood and allows so many to feel justified in their murderous rages.
    This level of excuse is what turns so many against Muslims
    And what of the silent majority who do nothing do stop the killing that is perpetrated in their name. If the west is wrong what are Muslims around the world actually doing to STOP ISIS or indeed stop their numbers running off to join ISIS

    Its is time this anachronistic archaic religion and all others were sidelined from our culture . What a man choses to believe should be kept to the privacy of his own home and be between him and his God.
    (All religion imo are man made constructs whose main purpose seems to be to differentiate and divide people)
    I should not have to listen to another word about it and all its outdated babble.
    And I certainly should not have to see is used as a tool, whatever branch to justify any killing of anyone anywhere.
    (and before you say its not used to justify killing look at your own statements above blaming Shia for ISIS)


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    #26
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    leo2a6 wrote: »
    U have never been to KSA. U speak about something u don't know.
    You have absolutely no idea where I have been or what I know but I'd put money on the table that I am at least twice your age, have lived in three times as many countries as you. <Mod snip - please report to support, don't descend to personal attacks - Taltos> .

    You may have valid things to say but you choose to abuse instead of inform.


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    #27
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    It if not justifying the existence and mission of ISIS at least find excuses for it

    What a lot of BS. If u push the wall, the wall will push u back, to every action there is a reaction, newton 3rd law, simple as.
    Simple statement, not justifying, not excusing, just explaining how secular moustached gin-drinking Baathi Iraqi became IS.
    Now I know that many people like to see geopolitics as a cow-boy movie with intrinsically good people and intrinsically bad people.
    But it doesnt work that way. Without Versailles treaty, there is no Hitler,
    without US-Iranian invasion of Iraq, there is no IS. Simple as.


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    #28
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I must say if I was French I'd be a little piqued if there were up to 2 million people in their country who were chuckling away to themselves this weekend


    suicide-bombers2.png

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #29
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    Cedrus wrote: »
    You have absolutely no idea where I have been or what I know but I'd put money on the table that I am at least twice your age, have lived in three times as many countries as you. <Mod snip - please report to support, don't descend to personal attacks - Taltos> .

    You may have valid things to say but you choose to abuse instead of inform.

    No personal attacks there, ur post just showed u know nothing about KSA, u may not like it but if u think that it is hard in ksa to be moderate in ksa, u ignore all about that country. As soon as u arrive at Jeddah airport, u see people in jeans smoking, people not even praying, etc...


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    #30
    leo2a6
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭leo2a6


    silverharp wrote: »
    I must say if I was French I'd be a little piqued if there were up to 2 million people in their country who were chuckling away to themselves this weekend

    where does it say that up to 2 million people in their country are chuckling away to themselves this weekend ?


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    #31
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Mod Note
    Final warning guys. This has moved beyond the realm of the forum now and is just being used as a platform. Not on.
    leo - we both know that the infographic above doesn't say 2Mil are throwing themselves away, I'm trying to be lenient here but there's only so far I'm willing to go.

    Remember, this forum is here for the discussion of the religion of Islam only.

    If anyone has a problem with that or with our charter in general then I suggest you post elsewhere as I've no hesitation in removing posting rights of posters who are intent on having an argument for it's own sake. Point scoring isn't welcome, education and enlightenment are.


This discussion has been closed.
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