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Which conspiracy theories are real and which are not?

124

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    11,000 years ago is a long time ago. We expecting to find trash is a bit of a leap. Since they have only unearthed 10 per cent of site, it logical it was work of an advanced civilization. To carry out work like this you need labour and resources and handful of people having done it, seems improbable. Mainstream view of hunter gatherers is wrong then obviously, if they were building large sized temple structures. We were led to believe they are were just survivalists.
    I think its big deal to find a 3D tablet at Gobekli tepe with descriptions of an earth changing event, may i am just mad and alone for thinking this?

    It is a big deal, it's one of the major discoveries of recent times, but to spin this into evidence of a global advanced civilization of which Gobekli Tepe is just an outpost \ remnant is completely unsupported by the evidence of what has been found at the site.
    See the link I posed about the Jomon culture of Japan which may be even earlier than Gobekli Tepe, I don't think the view of Hunter Gatherers you present is actually what the mainstream view is.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You have not read the book. You just take the word of someone else who posted a negative review in 1998. You sought out a negative review for your own purposes.

    Nope

    I posted the wiki link which highlights his pseudo-scientific work
    I posted the rationalwiki link which goes into more detail
    I highlighted collective posts from r/askhistorians, in which people specifically ask about his credibility and each (separate) historian addresses this, their views are consistent, did you bother to read any of these?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    He also seems to have that condition that is prevalent in the troofer industry: that he knows something that everyone else doesn’t and one ups it by peesenting it as some esoteric knowledge that was only known to special class in pre-history. And the drugs.
    And I see from the link above that he has invoked the Nephilim in the past. Great stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    The Nal wrote: »
    Thats been known for 50 years. Hancock had nothing to do with its doscovery. Nada. Zero.



    Magicians of the Gods didn't even make it into the history section of the NY Times best sellers. Was listed under Religion, Spirituality and Faith. It and its author have been widely ridiculed by both the scientific and historical communities.

    The "comets" he describes were first put forward in the 1600s, its called the Younger Dryas impact and has been talked about for over 400 years. "Seems to be true". I won't ask for proof, because theres none. Just a baseless theory.

    Theres nothing new here. Just some chancer making a living from gullible people who buy his books. A Hello magazine historian.

    He contends Göbekli Tepe is too advanced to have been built by hunter-gatherers alone, and must therefore have been constructed with the help of people from a more advanced civilization. Unfortunately for Hancock these people left behind no hard evidence for their existence...

    It’s a romantic notion, but not the conclusion that the late great German archaeologist Klaus Schmidt came to after excavating Göbekli Tepe for more than two decades beginning in 1994. The site, he says, was used from 11,600 to about 10,000 years before the present


    https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/defant-analysis-of-hancock-claims-in-magicians-of-the-gods/

    http://www.jasoncolavito.com/magicians-of-the-gods-review.html#.XT73D-hKjIU

    This isn't even a conspiracy theory, its just a fantasy. He sells lots of books though.

    It was partly excavated by Klaus Schmidt. Klaus Schmidt and Graham Hancock were friends of course you did not know that. Even spoke about it on Joe Rogan podcast. Schmidt invited Graham to Turkey and he went there. Keep on pushing the false narrative nonsense Graham is outsider and is hated by mainstream archaeologists.

    The further Schmidt team dug down the older the site turned out to be. Layer three is dated to about 9130BC.

    Comet theory was proposed yet ignored by most researchers. The discovery of the 3D stone tablet at Gobekli Tepe, has opened a new avenue of research. It not an unimportant piece of evidence. Someone 11,000 years ago carved into stone images of a earth changing event and involved comets. If you have a problem with this contact Edinburgh university and lodge a formal complaint.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    It is a big deal, it's one of the major discoveries of recent times, but to spin this into evidence of a global advanced civilization of which Gobekli Tepe is just an outpost \ remnant is completely unsupported by the evidence of what has been found at the site.
    See the link I posed about the Jomon culture of Japan which may be even earlier than Gobekli Tepe, I don't think the view of Hunter Gatherers you present is actually what the mainstream view is.

    Never said Gobekli tepe was build by a global lost civilization.My take on it its remanants of a lost culture and i believe they were civilized. You keep ignoring the site is massive with only 10 per cent of it dug out and cleared. Just from 10 per cent dug out its largest megalith site in Europe. Clearly they were not just stone movers, there was craft and art workers deployed at the site.. 3D stone work is advanced for hunterers gatherers.

    The mainstream view of hunter gatherers is well known, if you think otherwise post info.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Never said Gobekli tepe was build by a global lost civilization.My take on it its remanants of a lost culture and i believe they were civilized. You keep ignoring the site is massive with only 10 per cent of it dug out and cleared. Just from 10 per cent dug out its largest megalith site in Europe. Clearly they were not just stone movers, there was craft and art workers deployed at the site.. 3D stone work is advanced for hunterers gatherers.
    The mainstream view of hunter gatherers is well known, if you think otherwise post info.

    Graham Hancock does and is on record as saying so, otherwise what's the conspiracy? Is there some organised campaign to suppress data from coming out of Gobekli tepe? No.
    The whole basis of his theory is that it was built by remnants of a lost global advanced civilisation, whose knowledge was passed down even to ancient Egypt.
    It was destroyed in a comet and that act is recorded at Gobekli tepe which is just an outpost built by survivors of that much larger civilisation.
    The Gobekli tepe people themselves, according to his theory, did not originate the skills etc needed to build it, they brought all the knowledge fully formed from the aftermath of the comet which destroyed all other evidence of that civilisation.

    The mainstream view of hunter gatherers includes the Jomon culture of Japan. I have repeatedly posted references to it, you are obviously unaware of it yet seem fixated on a strawman view of hunter gatherers.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Graham Hancock does and is on record as saying so, otherwise what's the conspiracy? Is there some organised campaign to suppress data from coming out of Gobekli tepe? No.
    The whole basis of his theory is that it was built by remnants of a lost global advanced civilisation, whose knowledge was passed down even to ancient Egypt.
    It was destroyed in a comet and that act is recorded at Gobekli tepe which is just an outpost built by survivors of that much larger civilisation.
    The Gobekli tepe people themselves, according to his theory, did not originate the skills etc needed to build it, they brought all the knowledge fully formed from the aftermath of the comet which destroyed all other evidence of that civilisation.

    The mainstream view of hunter gatherers includes the Jomon culture of Japan. I have repeatedly posted references to it, you are obviously unaware of it yet seem fixated on a strawman view of hunter gatherers.

    Graham believe is Gobekli tepe does not fit into any known historical paradigm. And his correct. I'm ok with speculation and Graham clearly says he looks at alternative reasons why this site exists.

    Jomon Culture a quick look at your link were not building temples and large megalith sites. The started making rudimentary pottery just bowls and over time they got better at making it, some of nicer pieces were found in ancient greek times, so not a startling discovery or earth shattering , least for me.

    You guys get upset he speculates, i don't.

    Graham and many others take the Atantlis story seriously and i open to it personally. Atantlis was never found so the Skeptics can claim it just fantasy and sillyness. What kind of cool though is the dating of Gobekli tepe is not far off the date and the timeline Plato gave for Atlantis destruction. Plato said it existed 9000 years before his time and this will give a date of 9360bc thereabouts. Gobekli oldest layer dug up is 9130bc. The difference is about 200 years. I can see why Graham goes with the idea and speculates civilization kicked started again after a disaster on earth.

    It was longterm believe Hunter gatherers communities were sparse, and thats just a fact and this widely believed to be case. That were able to form a large organised community that still not widely believed to have happened in Europe. They still claim there no evidence a settled community build Gobekli tepe, because they found no tools, and houses. But yet they will not say where they came from and how they got there and lived?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Graham believe is Gobekli tepe does not fit into any known historical paradigm. And his correct. I'm ok with speculation and Graham clearly says he looks at alternative reasons why this site exists.
    Jomon Culture a quick look at your link were not building temples and large megalith sites. The started making rudimentary pottery just bowls and over time they got better at making it, some of nicer pieces were found in ancient greek times, so not a startling discovery or earth shattering , least for me.
    You guys get upset he speculates, i don't.

    Hancock's wider claims are utterly without basis or foundation in the available evidence. It's interesting on the level of a science fiction novel.
    For him to be right, he needs extraordinary evidence. Nothing found thus far supports his theory to the exclusivity of other theories. He has built a theory around known facts i.e. Gobekli & comet strike, but the proof of those facts does not provide enough weight to support his grand claims.
    He has written entire books to support and flesh out these grand claims, for him this is much much further than speculation i.e. this isn't some off the cuff remark where he is chatting and speculates, "wouldn't it be astonishing if..."; or a few pages in a book where other theories are given the same weight.

    "Does not fit a paradigm" is not the same thing as "a conspiracy theory".
    What's the conspiracy theory?

    There is no conspiracy i.e. implying that some people have already excavated Gobekli or similar sites and are suppressing that knowledge and if that knowledge was revealed it would prove Hancock's wider theory.
    There is no conspiracy if Gobekli just hasn't been fully excavated yet, and archaeolgy is still formulating theories to explain what has been found thus far.
    There is no conspiracy if those findings lead to revisions of our understanding of the capabilities of people 10,000 years ago.

    The Jomon culture had sedentary settlements of 50+ structures 10,000 years ago. They were making pottery and there is a continuity in the designs lasting thousands of years.
    I linked to it to demonstrate not that they were on the same level as Gobekli but to show that what you present as a mainstream view of hunter gatherers is incorrect i.e. that they were sparsely populated survivalists.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Hancock's wider claims are utterly without basis or foundation in the available evidence. It's interesting on the level of a science fiction novel.
    For him to be right, he needs extraordinary evidence. Nothing found thus far supports his theory to the exclusivity of other theories. He has built a theory around known facts i.e. Gobekli & comet strike, but the proof of those facts does not provide enough weight to support his grand claims.
    He has written entire books to support and flesh out these grand claims, for him this is much much further than speculation i.e. this isn't some off the cuff remark where he is chatting and speculates, "wouldn't it be astonishing if..."; or a few pages in a book where other theories are given the same weight.

    "Does not fit a paradigm" is not the same thing as "a conspiracy theory".
    What's the conspiracy theory?

    There is no conspiracy i.e. implying that some people have already excavated Gobekli or similar sites and are suppressing that knowledge and if that knowledge was revealed it would prove Hancock's wider theory.
    There is no conspiracy if Gobekli just hasn't been fully excavated yet, and archaeolgy is still formulating theories to explain what has been found thus far.
    There is no conspiracy if those findings lead to revisions of our understanding of the capabilities of people 10,000 years ago.

    The Jomon culture had sedentary settlements of 50+ structures 10,000 years ago. They were making pottery and there is a continuity in the designs lasting thousands of years.
    I linked to it to demonstrate not that they were on the same level as Gobekli but to show that what you present as a mainstream view of hunter gatherers is incorrect i.e. that they were sparsely populated survivalists.

    Producing evidence is not his job. He always states he not a historian or archaeologist. I still can understand his position unlike you can. When you find a big mystery site like Gobekli tape and there no clues right now to who build and why, so for it perfectly fine to explore other theories.

    It was not widely and accepted believe comets hit the earth during the younger dreyas. Graham made the comet suggestion based off his studies of other sites around the world and he was attacked for it. Now we have a 11,000 site with a 3D stone carving claiming this very thing happened way back then.

    I never claimeed Gobekli tepe information was suppressed. I not sure where you got this from?

    I did make a claim it happened with Clovis and provided links to show it had happened there. Did you read them?

    Suddenly we faced with facts there was ancient cultures on earth pre- sumeria, but some of you are still hestitant to be open minded Graham may be on the right track about this.

    Jomon was isolated in Japan and were not too sure, as what was happening there around 14,000 years ago. Stone Hedge wsas build in 3000 BC- do you think a site thats 6000 years older which is vastly different in scope and size it not proof of an ancient lost civilization? What happened in the 6000 years since hunter gatherers seemed to decline and go backwards in time? How do you account for this?

    Jomon culture can be sorted out across a vast period of time. There not lost to time. They had long time to develop their skills making pottery and there no evidence they were building large compex and diverse buildings. There no evidence of large communities stuck in one spot. Very early japanese style culture had a lot time to flourish and hunter gatherers had plenty of land to travel across to hunt for food.

    We sharing differences in outlook and thats fine. We probably never agree, but thats life!


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Producing evidence is not his job. He always states he not a historian or archaeologist. I still can understand his position unlike you can. When you find a big mystery site like Gobekli tape and there no clues right now to who build and why, so for it perfectly fine to explore other theories.

    If he wants his theories to be taken seriously, he needs evidence. Either evidence he has produced himself, or working off accepted evidence produced elsewhere.
    It's fine to explore other theories that are grounded in the available knowledge, but if you write entire books focused on astonishing theories without evidence, with a track record of several thoroughly discredited previous theories (eg Mars), how can you expect to be taken seriously?
    Even if what he said about a comet strike is proven to be correct, it proves exactly zero of his other claims (that it wiped out a global advanced civilisation), and one could be severe and say "even a stopped clock is right twice a day." What matters is not to be right, you can be lucky that a hunch is proven to be correct - what matters is the evidence. And just because one hunch is correct, again, unless you are following a process it is just a lucky guess. That process is evidence based. So it is not just that we disagree on what we think happened, but on how we arrive at the truth of that.

    He has pivoted from real evidence to a wild speculation about a lost global civilisation that pre-dates Gobekli by thousands of years. At the moment they are just flights of fancy. Epic, astonishing, inventive flights of fancy but flights of fancy nonetheless.

    The differences in complexities of hunter gatherer societies, their variations across the world and across thousands of years is a fascinating subject - and one for the anthropology forum; but it doesn't need Hancock's explanations, and there is no conspiracy to prevent the truth from coming out (this is a thread about conspiracy theories after all, which is why I keep repeating it).

    We don't have the answers to the interesting questions raised by the discoveries at Gobekli, and right now that is a more solid answer than... it was a refuge built by the remnants of a lost global advanced civilisation.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    If he wants his theories to be taken seriously, he needs evidence. Either evidence he has produced himself, or working off accepted evidence produced elsewhere.
    It's fine to explore other theories that are grounded in the available knowledge, but if you write entire books focused on astonishing theories without evidence, with a track record of several thoroughly discredited previous theories (eg Mars), how can you expect to be taken seriously?
    Even if what he said about a comet strike is proven to be correct, it proves exactly zero of his other claims (that it wiped out a global advanced civilisation), and one could be severe and say "even a stopped clock is right twice a day." What matters is not to be right, you can be lucky that a hunch is proven to be correct - what matters is the evidence. And just because one hunch is correct, again, unless you are following a process it is just a lucky guess. That process is evidence based. So it is not just that we disagree on what we think happened, but on how we arrive at the truth of that.

    He has pivoted from real evidence to a wild speculation about a lost global civilisation that pre-dates Gobekli by thousands of years. At the moment they are just flights of fancy. Epic, astonishing, inventive flights of fancy but flights of fancy nonetheless.

    The differences in complexities of hunter gatherer societies, their variations across the world and across thousands of years is a fascinating subject - and one for the anthropology forum; but it doesn't need Hancock's explanations, and there is no conspiracy to prevent the truth from coming out (this is a thread about conspiracy theories after all, which is why I keep repeating it).

    We don't have the answers to the interesting questions raised by the discoveries at Gobekli, and right now that is a more solid answer than... it was a refuge built by the remnants of a lost global advanced civilisation.

    Graham in the interviews I watched is just describing a scenario that may have happened in the ancient past that's all. He was writing books about lost civilizations in the early 90s, during a period of time, scholars said there no evidence for it, therefore Graham work is pusedo-archaeology.

    Shmidt work at Gobekli tepe in my opinion though has radically changed the former perceived understanding of neolithic history. I don’t think its wild speculation after they find a 11,000 year old tablet stones depicting a devastating event occuring on earth caused by comets. Scientists were unsure what caused the younger dryas cooling period, now we have possible answer to this time old question at Gobekli tepe. This comet event was so dramatic it may have effected global climate and caused human extinction events on earth.

    Graham theory is there was survivors and they went to different corners of the earth after they event. I don’t think its an implausible scenario. Since it clear at Gobekli tepe someone in 11,000 bc or earlier was describing on stone a memory of the past. Since these people disappeared fom history and the site was buried for thousands of years we have no clue as to who they really were. When only 10 per cent of site dug so far, maybe we learn more in time.

    You don’t have to accept it and sure you don’t, but I open to it based on the findings so far. If Modern civilization was taken out today, would we go back to stone age, and would be able to crawl our way out, and begin again and what would that look like?. Would survivors hold onto what happened and recall later what happened to them- for me this what Gobekli tepe might be a record of past events. Perhaps this is what happened and just let Graham speak about instead of attacking him for his speculation.

    Regarding Mars, i still have not seen evidence he said on planet mars surface you find a human-faced structure. I seen you guys provide links to negative articles from someone else and not from Graham himself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    So it's one giant what if?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ipso wrote: »
    So it's one giant what if?

    Yes and no. If he just stuck to the what if he would not get such a hammering. He claims the pyramids are thousands of years older than accepted and built with knowledge from this pre younger dryas civilisation. There is also an angle about shamanism, mind expanding drugs and that this is partly how the ancients had such advanced knowledge.
    Some of the stuff is intriguing in a wouldnt it be mind blowing if ... but it is not something to be believed as likely on the basis of the available evidence v the scope of the claims. He puts a lot of ideas out there that some of them might stick but he bounces from idea to idea because the ideas have no grounding.

    I remember watching some of his Channel 4 docs as a teenager and being intrigued. But sometimes mundane reality has to be accepted over the wondrous theory.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Yes and no. If he just stuck to the what if he would not get such a hammering. He claims the pyramids are thousands of years older than accepted and built with knowledge from this pre younger dryas civilisation. There is also an angle about shamanism, mind expanding drugs and that this is partly how the ancients had such advanced knowledge.
    Some of the stuff is intriguing in a wouldnt it be mind blowing if ... but it is not something to be believed as likely on the basis of the available evidence v the scope of the claims. He puts a lot of ideas out there that some of them might stick but he bounces from idea to idea because the ideas have no grounding.

    I remember watching some of his Channel 4 docs as a teenager and being intrigued. But sometimes mundane reality has to be accepted over the wondrous theory.

    People who have viewed this honestly have all said the science is sound the Sphinx is much older then the record states. There evidence of water erosion. If the Sphinx is older there high chance the Great Pyramid at Giza is older also.

    Great Pyramid at Giza is accepted to be a better design what came later was much worse. and this is evidence of a decline in work standard. It accepted you get better at it over time not worse.

    Despite what the Egyptologists claim they have no record as to who build the Great Pyramid. It is true there was an attempt to replicate it by the Egyptians and this why is so easy to dismiss the alternative history . Fact is though the designers and builders of the Great Pyramid seemed to be more knowledgable and better at building large Pyramids.

    It widely accepted by academics ancient cultures, took drugs, to connect with the spirit world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Ipso wrote: »
    So it's one giant what if?

    Irish folklore and myth is pretty crazy too. If you read the book of invasions, it alternative history of Ireland written by christen monks in the 11th century. They describe alien beings coming to Ireland onboard flying ships. And lived here thousands of years ago. Pretty weird stuff. Folklore you learned stems from these legends handed down over centuries, time travel, other worlds like tir na og, you know it i think?

    Crazy thing one of the legends describes a invading group coming to Ireland from Spain, very long ago and was considered a stuff of legend. When DNA experts looked at Irish DNA they discovered their closest relations were to the people in Basque region. The Milesians were described in book of Invasions as Gaels who originated from North Spain. Odd stuff.

    What if indeed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    The Milesians were co-opted (as were the Sycthians for the Fir Bolg) as a way to give the Irish biblical heritage. The Spanish DNA thing reflects common ancestry not a source.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    People who have viewed this honestly have all said the science is sound the Sphinx is much older then the record states. There evidence of water erosion. If the Sphinx is older there high chance the Great Pyramid at Giza is older also. Great Pyramid at Giza is accepted to be a better design what came later was much worse. and this is evidence of a decline in work standard. It accepted you get better at it over time not worse.

    Really, then how come bridges are collapsing in Italy despite being 50 years old when other bridges 100 years old are still standing?
    And do all the people who have viewed this believe that the reason why the pyramid was designed better is because they received help from the inheritors of the knowledge of a lost global civilisation?
    You're not providing proof of anything. You're just creating uncertainty and then into this uncertainty proposing a speculative theory with absolutely zero evidence.
    It widely accepted by academics ancient cultures, took drugs, to connect with the spirit world.

    What's not widely accepted, which is the premise of Supernatural (2005) & Magicians of the Gods (2015) by Graham Hancock, is that there was an ancient culture who:
    - Had shamans who took mind altering drugs
    - The shamans entered spirit trances and encountered beings
    - These beings passed on advanced knowledge to the shamans
    - The shamans returned from the spirit trances with this knowledge
    - This knowledge was use to found a pre younger dryas advanced global civilisation, a civilisation with ocean going ships
    - This civilisation was wiped out in a comet strike during the younger dryas (note that whether a comet strike did occur is a still a current matter of scientific discussion)
    - Remnants of this civilisation established a refuge at Göbekli Tepe (and despite having 'advanced knowledge' left no traces of metallurgy, writing or pottery that have been discovered in over a decade of archaeological work)
    - Remnants of this civilisation, or knowledge from them, were involved in the construction of the Great Pyramid

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Ipso wrote: »
    The Milesians were cooptes as a way to give the Irish biblical heritage. The Spanish DNA thing reflects common ancestry not a source.

    Partly true. The myth and legends were solely from Keltic culture in Ireland and then in 11th century Ireland Christen monks spun some of it to match their own religion and biblical legends and myths, i agree.

    All i saying is one legend claimed a very large invading army arrived in Ireland (3000BC maybe wrong about this date, a while since i read this) and did battle with the fairies ( tuatha de Danann) and after signing a treaty the fewer number the fairies agreed to go underground or to another world beside our own. Its very weird stuff, in this book and no evidence its happened at all, yet it book written about the origins of the Irish and people before them.

    It just kind of cool in 11th century, monks were claiming some large force came from north Spain to Ireland, and science has caught up and seemly is confirming a migration of people came from there to Ireland long ago and they were the ancestors of the Irish. There no evidence of spanish invasion before this, i can pin point to explain it differently?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    There is no DNA evidence supporting a Spanish invasion; when DNA testing was in it's early stages it was discovered that there was a mutation on the Y Chromosome (a tiny tiny part of the Y Chromosome which in itself is only about 2% of the entire genome, and women don't carry it) that was found in very high level sin Wales, Scotland, Ireland and particularly the Basque region of Spain.
    At first this mutation was estimated to have been about 15,000 years old or so and there were a lot of assumptions made: high frequency in modern population in an area that may have been habitable during the ice age equals place of origin.
    As more testing was done, technology improved it was discovered that the mutation was not as old as once thought and older subgroups were found further East with younger ones found in the West.
    The R1b-M269 haplogroup which dominates Western Europe got broke into two groups which are around the same age (4,500 to 5,500 years old): P312 and U106. U106 correlates very well in Germanic areas and P312 with areas associated with Celt Italic languages (and these groups have been found in DNA samples from the Bronze Age, they don't appear in Western Europe before that), P312 is then split into three groups: U152 (mainly found in Central Europe, Alps/Italy and even in Bashkirs), DF27 is found mainly in Iberia and L21 is found in the Isles. These groups are first cousins so to speak and anyone carrying them shares common ancestry and one can not have come from the other, the entry point into Western Europe looks like the Pontic Caspian steppe and was spread by the Yamnaya group initially and then further west by the bell beakers, the numbers grew rapidly as the society seemed to be male dominated and patriarchal which is what we see later in the Gaelic era.
    The fairies in the book of invasions were just the celtic gods personified (with the Fomor being a darker counterpoint), the only group of the seven mentioned in the book of invasions that has any historical basis is the Fir Bolg who seemed liked to the group called the Laighin, which gave Leinster it's name.
    Given how conspiracy theories can spread misinformation in hours, god only knows what happened with oral history in the past over years and centuries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    You're just creating uncertainty and then into this uncertainty proposing a speculative theory with absolutely zero evidence.

    Highlighted for accuracy


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Really, then how come bridges are collapsing in Italy despite being 50 years old when other bridges 100 years old are still standing?
    And do all the people who have viewed this believe that the reason why the pyramid was designed better is because they received help from the inheritors of the knowledge of a lost global civilisation?
    You're not providing proof of anything. You're just creating uncertainty and then into this uncertainty proposing a speculative theory with absolutely zero evidence.



    What's not widely accepted, which is the premise of Supernatural (2005) & Magicians of the Gods (2015) by Graham Hancock, is that there was an ancient culture who:
    - Had shamans who took mind altering drugs
    - The shamans entered spirit trances and encountered beings
    - These beings passed on advanced knowledge to the shamans
    - The shamans returned from the spirit trances with this knowledge
    - This knowledge was use to found a pre younger dryas advanced global civilisation, a civilisation with ocean going ships
    - This civilisation was wiped out in a comet strike during the younger dryas (note that whether a comet strike did occur is a still a current matter of scientific discussion)
    - Remnants of this civilisation established a refuge at Göbekli Tepe (and despite having 'advanced knowledge' left no traces of metallurgy, writing or pottery that have been discovered in over a decade of archaeological work)
    - Remnants of this civilisation, or knowledge from them, were involved in the construction of the Great Pyramid

    Italy has been conquered and annexed mutiple times throughout human history by multiple distinct groups, and tribes. Building of roads and bridges is not a good example.

    The claim here is Egyptians build every Pyramid. So it bit odd building standards took a step back and were nowhere as impressive as the original great pyramid at Giza. In book of thoth it claimed it was build by a god, which often means a people before them as they very different. Again it long time ago, so we never know for sure, but there literally nothing to show the Egyptians build the great Pyramid at GIZA, the only fact about this is they tried to repeat it and never succeeded successfully.

    You still ignoring for your own reason only 10 per cent of Göbekli Tepe is dug out and seen, about 90 per cent still underground and hidden. You can't claim there not new discoveries there to be found and that may prove Graham theory further?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Ipso wrote: »
    There is no DNA evidence supporting a Spanish invasion; when DNA testing was in it's early stages it was discovered that there was a mutation on the Y Chromosome (a tiny tiny part of the Y Chromosome which in itself is only about 2% of the entire genome, and women don't carry it) that was found in very high level sin Wales, Scotland, Ireland and particularly the Basque region of Spain.
    At first this mutation was estimated to have been about 15,000 years old or so and there were a lot of assumptions made: high frequency in modern population in an area that may have been habitable during the ice age equals place of origin.
    As more testing was done, technology improved it was discovered that the mutation was not as old as once thought and older subgroups were found further East with younger ones found in the West.
    The R1b-M269 haplogroup which dominates Western Europe got broke into two groups which are around the same age (4,500 to 5,500 years old): P312 and U106. U106 correlates very well in Germanic areas and P312 with areas associated with Celt Italic languages (and these groups have been found in DNA samples from the Bronze Age, they don't appear in Western Europe before that), P312 is then split into three groups: U152 (mainly found in Central Europe, Alps/Italy and even in Bashkirs), DF27 is found mainly in Iberia and L21 is found in the Isles. These groups are first cousins so to speak and anyone carrying them shares common ancestry and one can not have come from the other, the entry point into Western Europe looks like the Pontic Caspian steppe and was spread by the Yamnaya group initially and then further west by the bell beakers, the numbers grew rapidly as the society seemed to be male dominated and patriarchal which is what we see later in the Gaelic era.
    The fairies in the book of invasions were just the celtic gods personified (with the Fomor being a darker counterpoint), the only group of the seven mentioned in the book of invasions that has any historical basis is the Fir Bolg who seemed liked to the group called the Laighin, which gave Leinster it's name.
    Given how conspiracy theories can spread misinformation in hours, god only knows what happened with oral history in the past over years and centuries.

    How can you know for sure the Keltic legends and myths are not partily true? We assume lot based on our limited understanding of world back then. Its height of human ignorance to think we know everything and just dismiss it out of hand..

    Even researchers are seeing markers this may have actually happened. Not everyone will agree with them, but least there something tangible there to be found. I never throw away all legends and myth, it might be those ancient cultures orally describing real events that may have took place, and just changed and morphed slightly over time.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/is-distinctive-dna-marker-proof-of-ancient-genocide-1.1426197


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Where do you start with what could be true (one eyed Formorians on Tory Island, I know its Donegal but still)? Also look into the context in which the stories were written: by Christian monks who just happen to give the origins as mainly christian. These stories represent what they wanted the origins to be not what they know them to be.
    Mil Despain was chosen as he had an lineage to Noah, that he was Spanish was also nice as at the time Isidore of Seville was very prominent and it was prestigious to be linked to the country he came from. I'm not saying these stories should be thrown out altogether, from a heritage point of view they are priceless, just not accurate.
    And it wasn't just an Irish thing, later you had the Plantagenets creating a link to King Arthur in order to give them legitimacy over Wales.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Ipso wrote: »
    Where do you start with what could be true (one eyed Formorians on Tory Island, I know its Donegal but still)? Also look into the context in which the stories were written: by Christian monks who just happen to give the origins as mainly christian. These stories represent what they wanted the origins to be not what they know them to be.
    Mil Despain was chosen as he had an lineage to Noah, that he was Spanish was also nice as at the time Isidore of Seville was very prominent and it was prestigious to be linked to the country he came from. I'm not saying these stories should be thrown out altogether, from a heritage point of view they are priceless, just not accurate.
    And it wasn't just an Irish thing, later you had the Plantagenets creating a link to King Arthur in order to give them legitimacy over Wales.

    Some of it yes. Clearly the Tuatha de dannann are not christen, they are depicted as pagan gods. Descriptions of them they appear to be human Greeks, just may take on it. They have the apperance and remarkably similar to the greeks gods ( in Irish myth the fairies had blonde hair) same in the Greek odyseey. I not opposed the tuatha de dannan were somehow greeks that somehow made all the way to Ireland by sailboat.

    The weird aspect though for me.
    I'm a believer in UFOs and i believe origins are not us humans. People have described human looking beings onboard UFOs. Travis Walton UFO case just one example, and some of the beings he claimed he saw allegedly were human looking and had blonde hair. Is is true i was not there, but descriptions of a blonde hair race is very prevalent in Ufology.

    King arthur is based on celtic legend. Obviously the sword pulled from the stone is hard to believe, but that can be traced back to stone of destiny that supposedly a magic stone the tuatha de dannann had brought from Hy Brazil- which in celtic lore is another name for Atlantis.

    I agree it none of this proven historical fact, but it interests me personally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭The Late Late Show


    Some interesting thoughts here on Irish mythology. I remember reading books about Fionn, Tir Na Nog and so on. And then there is Hy Brasil. Some link Fionn and the Fianna to King Arthur and his Knights. There is massive debate about if Fionn, Chu Chulainn/Setanta, King Arthur and other famous individuals of Celtic mythology were 100% fiction or based on real people.

    The likes of Tir Na Nog and Hy Brasil along with Avalon and Atlantis are often depicted as lands across the sea in mythology. Sometimes, heavenly and supernatural things happen in such legends. Fairies, giants, etc. appear too in many tales. Unicorns as well get mentioned.

    Various groups that came to Ireland are said to have come from Spain, Iran, Central Europe and Russia among others. We know languages spoken from Ireland to India are related and that many peoples from disparate areas are ethnically related too. Some of the names for peoples include Scythians (an Iranian group relating to Persians and Central Asians), Milesians (based in Spain before Ireland but some say from Western and Central Asia before that) and Celts (from Turkey/Greece to Central Europe).

    What is more controversial is the view of some that there was once a global empire and that the people we know know as Europeans, Persian Iranians, Europeans, Egyptians, Maya and Aztec were all once part of the same civilisation. Some or all may even be the same race of people. The view is the Egyptian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Minoan, Mayan, Aztec, etc. civilisations that came afterwards was the continuation of these after an apocalyptic event broke the links between the Western side (the Americas) from the Eastern side (Europe, North Africa, Turkey, Iran). Such people say the Indo-European language, pyramids and Irish myth apparently linking to Persepolis are 'evidence' of this. They claim tales such as Atlantis and Noah's Ark/The Great Flood are details of the apocalypse that disrupted the once global civilisation.

    My view is that there is some truth in all this. Suppose let's say the Caspian sea and Black sea were formed due to a flood, then the 'Noahs' would have to either move or get on a boat. Someone could move from an area in the sea to the north of what is now called Mazandaran and could then end up in what is now Baku and move West. Perhaps, Scythians, etc. all moved West and settled eventually in Spain?

    Then, there's the giants, fairies and unicorns. Some say the Celts were much taller than inhabitants of Western Europe and there may be a time when 2 races existed in Ireland: one much taller than the other. Perhaps, they viewed each other with mistrust as giants and fairies. Unicorns, horses with horns, remind me very much of the rhinoceros. We must remember North Africa then was more fertile than now and such creatures could be reported back to other lands as 'horses with horns'.

    We have to remember of course fact mixed in with myth and it was passed down generations. In the end, whatever fact there was in stories became diluted very much so as that all the stories ended up in the end virtually 100% fiction. Atlantis may well have been about a vague link between Europe/Africa and lands we now called the Americas. But other things got added in like the demise of the Minoan area of Thera and Greek politics and Greek deities. In the end, Atlantis was virtually 100% Plato's. Perhaps in a similar manner, Tir Na Nog was a more advanced region where people had better food and shelter so aged less. When they came back to a less well off area, they aged more profoundly. This is the same today. Look at this map (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Countries_by_average_life_expectancy_%282015%29.png/1024px-Countries_by_average_life_expectancy_%282015%29.png) and you even see countries beside each other (Iran and Afghanistan, Algeria and Mali being examples) with radically different life expectancies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,149 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    That Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't the only reason JFK was died.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,149 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    cjmc wrote: »
    That Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't the only reason JFK was died.

    Sorry wrong thread


  • Registered Users Posts: 37 Beholders


    OK I have to say I'm new here. so no offense intended, I've being lurking in the background and making my own assumptions of what has happened with some of the best conspiracy theories, and thank you all for sharing your insights with me as a lurker.

    Ok I have not a theory (it's way more odd ball than that) It's about the idea behind the matrix films (Red or Blue pill theory) obviously that is just Hollywood, but from my lurcking maybe it is a reality problem, call it as you may see it sociology or psychology, or even philosophy, (the unmeasurable sciences) there is one thing we all have in common and it's that out believe systems are very hard to break. If one person believes something that is important to them, then they will hold on to it for dear life.

    So my thought is why do we love conspiracy theories, and why do we think we can solve them, (I think I understand that part of them concept) but when does an opinion become fact to certain people, that they become unshakable, what is the pivot point when that happens.

    Now don't get me wrong, this thread has being amazing and as I said I love being a dective as well, and I learnt a lot. But it still is the back of my mind what is the motivation behind conspiracy theories and why people believe in the most outlandish things (which in this theard I'm still digesting the information , but I think might be able to answer this, Thank you) How do people on this thread decide what is acurate information and hoax information?

    (I'm think about Gemma OD here)

    Hence why I suggesting the biggest conspiracy theory is the (Blue or Red Pill Theory) why cause you're believe system is very hard to shift.

    PS the Blue or Red Pill Theory (and it has something to do with someones reality) I just made up because it was from the matrixs, but the rest of what I said still stands sometimes we are, our own worst conspiracist.

    Theories Anyone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Beholders wrote: »
    OK I have to say I'm new here. so no offense intended, I've being lurking in the background and making my own assumptions of what has happened with some of the best conspiracy theories, and thank you all for sharing your insights with me as a lurker.

    Ok I have not a theory (it's way more odd ball than that) It's about the idea behind the matrix films (Red or Blue pill theory) obviously that is just Hollywood, but from my lurcking maybe it is a reality problem, call it as you may see it sociology or psychology, or even philosophy, (the unmeasurable sciences) there is one thing we all have in common and it's that out believe systems are very hard to break. If one person believes something that is important to them, then they will hold on to it for dear life.

    So my thought is why do we love conspiracy theories, and why do we think we can solve them, (I think I understand that part of them concept) but when does an opinion become fact to certain people, that they become unshakable, what is the pivot point when that happens.

    Now don't get me wrong, this thread has being amazing and as I said I love being a dective as well, and I learnt a lot. But it still is the back of my mind what is the motivation behind conspiracy theories and why people believe in the most outlandish things (which in this theard I'm still digesting the information , but I think might be able to answer this, Thank you) How do people on this thread decide what is acurate information and hoax information?

    (I'm think about Gemma OD here)

    Hence why I suggesting the biggest conspiracy theory is the (Blue or Red Pill Theory) why cause you're believe system is very hard to shift.

    PS the Blue or Red Pill Theory (and it has something to do with someones reality) I just made up because it was from the matrixs, but the rest of what I said still stands sometimes we are, our own worst conspiracist.

    Theories Anyone?

    It appears certain people believe in some of the more surreal conspiracy theories because they have difficulty handling the fact that the world is an out of control and chaotic space. To these individuals there is often a "guiding hand" behind significant or unbelievable world events. And since many of these people share the same paranoid or anti-authoritarian world views, it follows that the culprits of these acts often take on the form of all controlling nefarious entities, the usual suspects being the Jews, the US government, the NWO, Illuminati and so on. An elite group that has to power the pull the strings behind the scenes

    What's quite telling is that often these types of individuals rarely want to actually solve their dogmatic conspiracy theories, rather maintain them as almost religious style beliefs


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭daveorourke77


    Conspiracy theories that work best tend to be based partly on fact. Four of the most popular ones of recent times are these:

    Kennedy: It is clear that Kennedy was shot dead. It is clear someone wanted him dead. It is not so clear who. Perfect scenario for as many conspiracy theories as you like here. Dead JFK made a lot of people very wealthy and this topic shows few signs of being forgotten any time soon despite over 50 years.

    Elvis is alive: Elvis Presley was a very talented singer who shot to fame and between 1954 and 1977, achieved things few if any others did. But despite his success, he was often not happy with how his career was controlled by management and he was depressed sometimes. Some claim he wanted to get away from it all and faked his own death in conspiracy theories. Books were written by a 'doctor' who was supposed to be treating the Elvis in hiding and others said a wax work was in the coffin not Elvis himself.

    The moon landings and Area 51: 50 years ago, man landed on the moon according to most. But to some, it was a hoax filmed (possibly by Stanley Kubrick) in Nevada. Area 51 is linked into it to: to some, this holds secret alien remains but others claim it has the set used for the moon landings. Some also point to the flag fluttering in wind, the by today's standard primitive technology or deadly radiation belts as reasons why man could not get to the moon.

    9/11: Sure, aren't conspiracy theories just harmless issues to create pub discussions or amateur debating society topics? Yes but not all are so 'harmless'. 9/11 conspiracies have been causing trouble for years. Some claim it was an inside job done by America to justify war. Some claim it was a Mossad job. In turn, some Americans tried to link 9/11 to Iraq to justify war and also tried to link it to Iran as well. 9/11 conspiracy theories have caused REAL problems that is for sure.

    The point is conspiracy theories can be used to justify any point. Some believe in them and use them to form their world view. For example, Neo-Nazis tend to be holocaust deniers because it makes Nazism look a lot better (when you remove its most evil act). Denying an event happened (or didn't happen in the way it was reported) often is standard defense. Holocaust denial has been copied by others who want to divert attention away from issues that make them look worse: fake news and all that. Conspiracy theories are more plentiful now than ever and when they get believed can cause trouble.

    Let us assume that 9\11 was not an inside. I'm not saying it was or it wasn't buts lets just assume so for the sake of argument

    If it wasnt set upthen why werent greater effort made to prevent these attacks, the 9\11 attacks are as clear a case of criminal negligence on behalf of the U.S military and intelligence communities as you are ever likely to see. Incompetence is the bare minimum. The richest and best resourced communities in the world and they'll have you believe that some tin pot dictator penetrated U.S security under those circumstances. I believe it is proper to question what happened given what we've learned. Even George Bush was re-elected after these events. A man hailed for his lack of intellect.

    An inside Job is a whole other level but in my view it is completely reasonable to question why the attacks were allowed to happen and why nobody in america was ever held accountable in a meaningful way.


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