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View Poll Results: Collins or DeValera
Collins 143 83.63%
DeValera 28 16.37%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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28-03-2010, 16:20   #16
Damo123
 
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Just for the record Im not pro-dev...

But I have to say I would like to see a pro-dev film made. I know so many people whos only source for not liking the man is because of how he was depicted in the Micheal Collins film. I think thats sad.
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28-03-2010, 16:25   #17
brianthebard
 
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Originally Posted by Flamed Diving View Post
A man who allegedly (or implicitly) rejected protectionist economic policies.

Any history heads know his economic views? Surely there are some primary sources.
I know he was a fan of Connolly....
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28-03-2010, 16:29   #18
Flamed Diving
 
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I know he was a fan of Connolly....
I'm not too sure the guy was a socialist. It's not the MO of an investment banker. Secondly, socialism =/> protectionism.
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28-03-2010, 16:32   #19
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I didn't say he was a socialist, or that that meant he supported protectionist policies. That would be quite a leap to make, although deciding what a person is or believes based on their job is similarly reductionist. One would hardly suggest that guerilla and military mastermind are the 'MO of an investment banker' either. I merely pointed out that he was a supporter and admirer of Connolly.
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29-03-2010, 17:42   #20
MarchDub
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamed Diving View Post
A man who allegedly (or implicitly) rejected protectionist economic policies.

Any history heads know his economic views? Surely there are some primary sources.
The best original source that I know of for Collins' economic policies comes from his essay "Building up Ireland: Resources to be Developed" in which he outlines how he sees the economic future of Ireland. He actually opens by quoting De Valera and concurring with Dev on the idea that "materialism" and, as it is phrased "living the life of the beasts" should not dictate the future of the Irish people. Collins does not fear this, he writes, because the Irish in their ancient civilization where "one of the most spiritual and one of the most intellectual peoples in Europe".

Collins agrees with Dev that agriculture is at the centre of Irish economic life "and likely to continue to be". Collins then goes on to say that natural resources should be developed and this begins with agricultural land being made freely available for development and the country's infrastructure improved to facilitate the movement of goods. Existing industries should be given the economic help in expanding - with indigenous mineral resources exploited - and foreign trade encouraged by making it easier to export and import foreign goods. He suggests that the harbours need to be expanded and brought up to date for this purpose.

The emphasis of the essay places an important place on the distribution of wealth and "the object is not to be able to boast of enormous wealth or a great volume of trade for their own sake". The wealthy he writes must share their wealth and Ireland must aim at " the building up of a sound economic life in which great discrepancies [in wealth] must not occur".

It's a impressive read IMO and shows much intelligence and thoughtfulness.
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29-03-2010, 20:52   #21
Linus67
 
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I would have to say De Valera. Collins was a traitor who got what he deserved.
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29-03-2010, 21:09   #22
LookBehindYou
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I would have to say De Valera. Collins was a traitor who got what he deserved.
How do you come to this conclusion ? or is it that you are a brain washed FF fan ?
Give your reasons.
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29-03-2010, 21:38   #23
Linus67
 
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How do you come to this conclusion ? or is it that you are a brain washed FF fan ?
Give your reasons.
I don't support any party.

Do you not know Irish history? Collins had no right to sign the peace treaty. You sound like someone who was brainwashed by the propaganda film "Michael Collins".
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30-03-2010, 00:15   #24
LookBehindYou
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I don't support any party.

Do you not know Irish history? Collins had no right to sign the peace treaty. You sound like someone who was brainwashed by the propaganda film "Michael Collins".
I am a fair minded person who thinks for myself, and i usually get my facts right before i decide which. I was not brainwashed by anyone or any propaganda.
YES, i do know about Irish history.
Collins got the best deal in the peace treaty,that he could at that time.
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30-03-2010, 22:36   #25
walrusgumble
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Originally Posted by Linus67 View Post
I don't support any party.

Do you not know Irish history? Collins had no right to sign the peace treaty. You sound like someone who was brainwashed by the propaganda film "Michael Collins".
The team were badly prepared by Dev. The Brits were even laughed at for their clothing, (appearances ment everything before a snobbish lot. the Brits were experts on what to wear and when, morning clothing, hats etc) NO fixed aims were given. Feck all actually could understand Dev's external association idea. Document No 2 was not wholly different to the substance of the treaty (excluding the oath). The team were given expressed plenipotentiary rights to sign on behalf of the Dail. Do you know what that word actually means!!!! yet Dev managed to try and have his bread buttered on both sides

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plenipotentiary

Dev was in Limerick at the time and uncontactable. Why? Why was Eskine Childers there? Why did he seem to get more of a role than what a secretary was for? Why was he not trusted?

My family were anti treaty (great grandfathers) but they certaintly did not see Collins as a traitor. Dev had some idea of what Llyood George had in mind that summer when they meet. Maybe it could be said, that Dev did not go to the main discussions knowing full well that he would not get a workable agreement on the basis of how difficult he knew he was (even if he was ok with a free state). Look at what Llyood George had said about him, like picking mercury with a fork (is that correcly said?) You would have some sympathy for Dev, having to deal with the reality of the July Conference, knowing he could not get what Ireland had fought for, dealing with hot heads like Brugha, being a man of 1916 possibly bringing shame!.

Maybe you should get one or two details right before telling other who don't know their history. WOuld agree though on your view of THAT film

Many people in the country at the time doubted that Collins acted illegally, though you could question whether they were true republicans of the Brugha class

Last edited by walrusgumble; 30-03-2010 at 22:47.
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31-03-2010, 16:00   #26
Xluna
 
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Collins for me. Collins argued that it would only be a matter of time before the oath of allegiance would be removed,and Dev proved him right.
Collins,though proud of his heritage,was a less insular and less conservative person than Dev. If he had lived who knows what would have happened.
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18-04-2010, 11:31   #27
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From memory, I believe in 1920-21, one of these men was simultaneously the Acting President of Ireland, President of the IRB, Minister for Finance - and if certain historical sources are to be believed - giving Richard Mulcahy (head of volunteers/IRA/GHQ) orders in front of his own men, making him Ireland's military leader, for all intents and purposes.
You mean a Dictator?
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18-04-2010, 11:35   #28
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I had to laugh at the poll results.

Ofcourse the guy who dies young always gets romanticised, and receives unfair browny points for not being around long enough to make a complete tit of himself.

Having said that, I believe Collins killed more people that Dev, so maybe he wins anyway on that score?
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29-08-2018, 18:35   #29
The Crowman
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Views on Dev and Collins.

https://twitter.com/corkfolklore/sta...51771438329856




https://twitter.com/corkfolklore/sta...13537577779205
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30-08-2018, 02:32   #30
Peregrinus
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Collins had the misfortune, or good fortune, depending on your point of view, to die young. We always remember fondly those who die young. De Valera lived to a ripe old age, and we had plenty of time to examine his flaws, weaknesses and errors. So it's maybe not a fair competition.

Many European countries passed from democracy to authoritarianism or, worse, fascism in the 1930s. Ireland did not. It's not difficult to construct an imaginative but plausible alternative history in which Collins does not die, becomes a significant leader who continues to conflate military and political roles while capitalising on his considerable personal magnetism, and ends up becoming a strongman dictator in the 1930s.
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