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19-11-2019, 20:37   #2371
jacothelad
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yes
salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
so 2 NIQ

ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4
Milasinovich is I.Q......so not.
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19-11-2019, 21:01   #2372
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The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland.

Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane.

The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed.

Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.

It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.
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19-11-2019, 21:14   #2373
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The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland.

Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane.

The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed.

Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.

It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.

Anyone who thinks this is wildly out of touch with reality. In Ulster's case the lack of development of players is really due to a slow decline in interest in rugby across the board and serial mismanagement of the business side, the Academy and the coaching. There are many reasons for this 'malaise' but together they have led to the current situation. Things have changed in schools due in no small measure to pathetic, parochial, political interference and things have changed in society, particularly in that section of N.I. which traditionally was interested in and contributed to the game.
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19-11-2019, 21:17   #2374
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thats a fair point about the player welfare.. i suppose it is just more in your face in regards to the irish first teamers and the lack of provincial games they play. for example i cant see the IRFU having much influence in ulster in regards to the amount of games mcclousky, marshall, gilroy etc play.

in regard to leinster and their foreign players... well leinster have significantly less NIQs than other provinces, so its doesnt make any sense to try to argue that by having more players on CC leinster has more money to entice NIQ players. nucifora has to sign off on every singing anyway.
Tomane is actually a pretty poor example of how cc savings should be spent.
Ulster have carter and coetzee and i would be very surprises they are on less of a wedge than tomane.

its not a level playing field because leinster develop such high quality players. simple as. As long as leinster are feeding the provinces players in lieu of the provinces developing their won, it will remain to be an unequal playing field.
Of course it's not a level playing field. Leinster have a lot of natural advantages in terms of population, number of clubs, schools, etc and they therefore contribute disproportionately to the national team. They have huge commercial advantages too in terms of population, urban concentration, access to large market, sponsorship and greater income. The question I was posing, in relation to central contracts, is whether Leinster really need the additional help with their budget that CCs give them.

Wrt your last point, if the provinces didn't take some of Leinster's excess players they would have few other options - they can't all get pro contracts in Leinster. Leinster-developed players moving to other provinces is a good thing for Irish rugby. And let's not forget, it's not all one-way traffic, and other teams have suffered quite badly from Leinster cherry picking players they have developed.
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19-11-2019, 21:28   #2375
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Cherry picking?
I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others
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19-11-2019, 21:31   #2376
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Cherry picking?
I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others
Mike McCarthy, Fionn Carr, Robbie Henshaw, Sean Cronin.

I think 'cherrypicking' describes the situation quite nicely.
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19-11-2019, 21:35   #2377
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Of course it's not a level playing field. Leinster have a lot of natural advantages in terms of population, number of clubs, schools, etc and they therefore contribute disproportionately to the national team. They have huge commercial advantages too in terms of population, urban concentration, access to large market, sponsorship and greater income. The question I was posing, in relation to central contracts, is whether Leinster really need the additional help with their budget that CCs give them.

Wrt your last point, if the provinces didn't take some of Leinster's excess players they would have few other options - they can't all get pro contracts in Leinster. Leinster-developed players moving to other provinces is a good thing for Irish rugby. And let's not forget, it's not all one-way traffic, and other teams have suffered quite badly from Leinster cherry picking players they have developed.

Leinster like all the provinces are not allowed to offer a contract with better terms to the other provinces. If a player is on a central contract they can move to any province and get paid the same money.



The reason players are on central contracts is because they deserve the additional wages because they are the best in that position in the country. Is the new train of thought that because players are with Leinster they dont deserve to be paid the highest wage? an inferior player at another province should be given it instead?





Who has Leinster cherry picked? If you are talking about Henshaw well all the provinces offered the same money. He decided to go to Leinster. About time people got over one transfer. How many players have left Leinster since????
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19-11-2019, 21:37   #2378
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Cherry picking?
I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others
Who said anything about offering higher contracts? There are other ways to tempt players to move. It's just a bit rich hearing some Leinster fans on a high horse about developing players for other provinces when they're not averse to taking some of the best developed players from those provinces.
It's a bit more galling when those players subsequently get central contracts with Leinster, a CC which could have really helped the other province with their meagre playing budget.
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19-11-2019, 21:40   #2379
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It's not that Leinster cherry picked anyone, it's just that it was always a better place to go, for winning trophies and furthering international prospects. They didn't have to tempt the players, the players just wanted to go.

Maybe that will be a thing of the past if Connacht can consistently qualify for Europe.
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19-11-2019, 21:57   #2380
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Originally Posted by sydthebeat View Post
The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland.

Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane.

The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed.

Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.

It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.
I don't think anyone thinks this is Leinster's fault.

I just took issue with the idea that the current setup is working for Irish Rugby as a whole, when my view is that it's only one province who are ever consistently any good. I took issue with the idea that all the other teams need to do is try a bit harder to develop some players, which the reality is they will never match Leinster in this department, so holding them to the same standards is grossly unfair.

I have no issue with Leinster having the majority of the central contracts, but the IRFU should therefore be devoting serious resources, including money, into the other three provinces to get them up to the same standard. They should be allowed to sign more foreign players to raise the standards if required. Having the same "rules" for Leinster as everyone else really makes a mockery of the whole thing.

If another decade goes by and Leinster dominate it like they've done the decade just past then this is either a failure on the part of the IRFU, or we're all being sold snake oil right now and this charade of "four proud provinces" needs to end.

There is a reason most sports don't allow an owner to own multiple clubs.

Last edited by awec; 19-11-2019 at 22:07.
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19-11-2019, 22:02   #2381
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Who said anything about offering higher contracts? There are other ways to tempt players to move. It's just a bit rich hearing some Leinster fans on a high horse about developing players for other provinces when they're not averse to taking some of the best developed players from those provinces.
It's a bit more galling when those players subsequently get central contracts with Leinster, a CC which could have really helped the other province with their meagre playing budget.
So you know the playing budgets of each province?
Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries?
Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries?

If you do, please share.

Also, who have leinster "taken"?
The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw?

Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago.

Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage.

Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??
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19-11-2019, 22:11   #2382
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I don't think anyone thinks this is Leinster's fault.

I just took issue with the idea that the current setup is working for Irish Rugby as a whole, when my view is that it's only one province who are ever consistently any good. I took issue with the idea that all the other teams need to do is try a bit harder to develop some players, which the reality is they will never match Leinster in this department, so holding them to the same standards is grossly unfair.

I have no issue with Leinster having the majority of the central contracts, but the IRFU should therefore be devoting serious resources, including money, into the other three provinces to get them up to the same standard. They should be allowed to sign more foreign players to raise the standards if required. Having the same "rules" for Leinster as everyone else really makes a mockery of the whole thing.

If another decade goes by and Leinster dominate it like they've done the decade just past then this is either a failure on the part of the IRFU, or we're all being sold snake oil right now and this charade of "four proud provinces" needs to end.

Nobody is asking the other provinces to match Leinster....


But Munster having 1 Munster born player under 30 in a World Cup squad is hardly developing players now is it?



Why should the provinces be allowed to sign more foreigner players? just to stop any chance of a young player getting into the squad?



ulster only started to turn the corner when they stopping bringing in player on huge contracts and promoted all the young players. Now you want to go back to big money signing like Piutau??? a player who got massive wages and wasn't fit half the time......


Is that the new answer?
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19-11-2019, 22:14   #2383
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Nobody is asking the other provinces to match Leinster....


But Munster having 1 Munster born player under 30 in a World Cup squad is hardly developing players now is it?



Why should the provinces be allowed to sign more foreigner players? just to stop any chance of a young player getting into the squad?



ulster only started to turn the corner when they stopping bringing in player on huge contracts and promoted all the young players. Now you want to go back to big money signing like Piutau??? a player who got massive wages and wasn't fit half the time......


Is that the new answer?
If they want to win anything they'll have to match Leinster. Leinster have better players togging out for their A team every week than the other provinces can produce. It is hard to compete with the money and resources floating around the east of the country.

Again, as I pointed out earlier, you have no idea whether Munster have got any worse at developing players, or whether they (and the others) have just been unable to keep up with the advances made by Leinster due to a lack of money and resources.

The best Ulster team in over a decade was built on the back of key NIQs. I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat.
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19-11-2019, 22:15   #2384
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So you know the playing budgets of each province?
Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries?
Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries?

If you do, please share.

Also, who have leinster "taken"?
The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw?

Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago.

Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage.

Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??

As usual, all these discussion end up in "Bad bad Leinster"



then we get the



"poor poor XYZ province"



We should disregards the facts some of these provinces have hired poor management teams, brought in poor player from abroad and wasted millions and millions of the years.....but all of that is forgot because Leinster are bad......
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19-11-2019, 22:18   #2385
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when the discussion in the Ireland thread turns to "provinces should be allowed sign more foreign players"... you know we have some serious problems.
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