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Growing wealth

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    The same principle has always applied to Revenue cases. Revenue can come up to on the street and take the Rolex off your arm, putting the obligation on you to prove your innocence - that you bought it from taxed income.




    The concept of CAB has never been properly challenged in the courts.


    The idea someone is guilty until they can prove they are innocent completely goes against the law.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    If I inherited a huge amount of money I would find a beautiful woman half my age and live in a camper van with her on a nudist resort in Spain for as long as I can.

    But actually I am doing that right now so perhaps I need to think of an even better idea:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,259 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The concept of CAB has never been properly challenged in the courts.


    The idea someone is guilty until they can prove they are innocent completely goes against the law.

    What does properly challenged mean?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭BDI


    This thread is like sitting at a bar in a dodgey pub with fellas who invest in sovereign rings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,891 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You have to take risks if you want to be successful.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    There's some truth in this, but the person retiring on a nest egg may not have the appetite for that level of risk.

    All I'm suggesting is that
    1) Investors educate themselves as to what options are open to them, including paying for professional advice if necessary, and
    2) Investors understand the inherent risks of their chosen solution.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,487 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Let's say a great aunt died and left you a million euro, could you retire and having put the money to work, live off it?

    If so, what would you do with the money - where would you invest it?


    Idea stems from stories you read about people who either build up enough of a nest egg to retire early, replace great aunt with won it on the 3.10 @ Cheltenham if you prefer.

    Leave the country and invest it in the country you went to or some other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,891 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The security in not having to worry about how I pay the bills.
    So you're spending it on paying the bills, despite having no other income? That's going to show up on someone's exception list in Revenue someday.
    Only in the same way that someone who breaks the speed limit is a "criminal".
    Not really - if you pay your speeding fine and take the penalty points, then you don't actually get a conviction in Court. If you deal in cash to avoid tax, there is a good chance of an actual criminal conviction, and having any assets seized and a Revenue judgment with interest and penalties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,891 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    MPT did nothing to protect investors in 2008—where people holding diversified portfolios got hit just as badly in many cases as people following an "all eggs in one basket" strategy—and it's unlikely to do much in any future market crash either. But investment advisors won't tell you this. All they know is MPT, and so they'll keep on blindly practicing it and giving investors a false sense of security.

    Hang on a sec. The 'cute hoor' investors here, who put large parts of their portfolio into Irish financial shares, or better still, put in all into Anglo had their capital almost completely wiped out - like high ninety percent wiped out. I recall hearing Gay Byrne whinging about what' advisor ' got him to put big money into Anglo, as he rebuilt his portfolio after being ripped off by a previously fraudulent advisor (and uncle of current Minister Murphy, funnily enough).

    By comparison, those who had their money in diversified funds across multiple regions and industry sectors, had some quiet years, and maybe some modest capital losses - but nothing like their poor cousins above.

    That's the very real danger of not diversifying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,891 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    To quote Buffett again, "Diversification is protection against ignorance. It makes little sense if you know what you are doing."

    If one actually knows and understands the market for Dublin executive property, investing in it could make more sense than investing in multiple things one doesn't understand just for the sake of being diversified. Plus, we now see a higher degree of correlation across investment classes. If property crashes, stocks and other investments are likely to tank as well.

    Like it or not, most people who have got really wealthy have done so by putting all of their eggs in one basket.

    Part of the problem here is that many people think they understand the Dublin executive property market because they once rented a bachelor pad in their 20s,but they really don't. Have a look at the posts that come into the accommodation forum from landlords, often experienced and well established landlords, who clearly have little clue about their legal and financial obligations. Have a look at the posts from people who bought property in badly built blocks now facing substantial costs to rectify and dealing with nonpaying neighbours.

    Lots of people don't know what they don't know, and overestimate their knowledge of a sector.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭ Santino Chubby Munchies


    Hang on a sec. The 'cute hoor' investors here, who put large parts of their portfolio into Irish financial shares, or better still, put in all into Anglo had their capital almost completely wiped out - like high ninety percent wiped out. I recall hearing Gay Byrne whinging about what' advisor ' got him to put big money into Anglo, as he rebuilt his portfolio after being ripped off by a previously fraudulent advisor (and uncle of current Minister Murphy, funnily enough).

    True. However, I'm advocating an "all eggs in one basket" strategy only if you have a high degree of understanding of that basket. It's safe to say that Gay Byrne was not informed enough to know what he was doing when he invested in Anglo. Likewise, the "cute hoor" investor is generally following what he hears from others.

    If you don't have a high degree of understanding of a sector or company, then sure, stick your money in an index tracker or something. It's better than nothing. That said, funds and index trackers are likely to go nowhere for some time, given that the stock market, at least in the US, is enormously overheated right now. Shiller P/E ratios are at levels previously seen only in 1929 and during the dot-com bubble.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭ Santino Chubby Munchies


    Lots of people don't know what they don't know, and overestimate their knowledge of a sector.

    Agreed. A cold objective appraisal of what you do and don't know about a company/sector is always wise before putting money into it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    So you're spending it on paying the bills, despite having no other income? That's going to show up on someone's exception list in Revenue someday.

    Its not because I live a very modest lifestyle and have a legit income.

    Also if I was to go on the piss every night and eat in some top restaurants while paying in cash the revenue would have noway of detecting that.
    Not really - if you pay your speeding fine and take the penalty points, then you don't actually get a conviction in Court. If you deal in cash to avoid tax, there is a good chance of an actual criminal conviction, and having any assets seized and a Revenue judgment with interest and penalties.
    I don't have any assets so they wouldn't be coming after me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Is that a serious question?

    Yes

    Ireland is notoriously unattractive when it comes to investing in the markets ( for the average person)


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    To quote Buffett again, "Diversification is protection against ignorance. It makes little sense if you know what you are doing."

    If one actually knows and understands the market for Dublin executive property, investing in it could make more sense than investing in multiple things one doesn't understand just for the sake of being diversified. Plus, we now see a higher degree of correlation across investment classes. If property crashes, stocks and other investments are likely to tank as well.

    Like it or not, most people who have got really wealthy have done so by putting all of their eggs in one basket.

    Part of the problem here is that many people think they understand the Dublin executive property market because they once rented a bachelor pad in their 20s,but they really don't. Have a look at the posts that come into the accommodation forum from landlords, often experienced and well established landlords, who clearly have little clue about their legal and financial obligations. Have a look at the posts from people who bought property in badly built blocks now facing substantial costs to rectify and dealing with nonpaying neighbours.

    Lots of people don't know what they don't know, and overestimate their knowledge of a sector.

    Investing in high end city centre apartments usually won't involve dealing with HAP tenants


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Hang on a sec. The 'cute hoor' investors here, who put large parts of their portfolio into Irish financial shares, or better still, put in all into Anglo had their capital almost completely wiped out - like high ninety percent wiped out. I recall hearing Gay Byrne whinging about what' advisor ' got him to put big money into Anglo, as he rebuilt his portfolio after being ripped off by a previously fraudulent advisor (and uncle of current Minister Murphy, funnily enough).

    True. However, I'm advocating an "all eggs in one basket" strategy only if you have a high degree of understanding of that basket. It's safe to say that Gay Byrne was not informed enough to know what he was doing when he invested in Anglo. Likewise, the "cute hoor" investor is generally following what he hears from others.

    If you don't have a high degree of understanding of a sector or company, then sure, stick your money in an index tracker or something. It's better than nothing. That said, funds and index trackers are likely to go nowhere for some time, given that the stock market, at least in the US, is enormously overheated right now. Shiller P/E ratios are at levels previously seen only in 1929 and during the dot-com bubble.

    Add to that, all " in one basket" is far riskier in equities than property, any public listed company could become worthless or liks U. S steel shrink in value despite being a behemoth at one time, a house in a prime location despite technically fitting the description of " illiquid and undiversified", is still not in the same ballpark of risk.

    Too much orthodox traditional textbook, almost clichéd jargon trotted out when it comes to these things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    So you're spending it on paying the bills, despite having no other income? That's going to show up on someone's exception list in Revenue someday.

    Its not because I live a very modest lifestyle and have a legit income.

    Also if I was to go on the piss every night and eat in some top restaurants while paying in cash the revenue would have noway of detecting that.
    Not really - if you pay your speeding fine and take the penalty points, then you don't actually get a conviction in Court. If you deal in cash to avoid tax, there is a good chance of an actual criminal conviction, and having any assets seized and a Revenue judgment with interest and penalties.
    I don't have any assets so they wouldn't be coming after me.

    Your sort of detailing what is an interesting thread


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Meant to say derailing


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Your sort of detailing what is an interesting thread


    I'm just pointing out how people can limit their tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Your sort of detailing what is an interesting thread


    I'm just pointing out how people can limit their tax.

    Your envisaging a situation where people work in cash in relation to a one million euro sum.

    Was funny for about three posts


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Your envisaging a situation where people work in cash in relation to a one million euro sum.

    Was funny for about three posts


    No someone can withdraw a lot of cash over time and save it in their house.


    A lot of old people keep large amounts of cash in their homes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Your envisaging a situation where people work in cash in relation to a one million euro sum.

    Was funny for about three posts


    No someone can withdraw a lot of cash over time and save it in their house.


    A lot of old people keep large amounts of cash in their homes.

    What has that got to do with growing wealth?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    What has that got to do with growing wealth?


    I'm talking about how someone can limit their tax liabilities if they want to pass on their wealth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    What has that got to do with growing wealth?


    I'm talking about how someone can limit their tax liabilities if they want to pass on their wealth.

    Your borderline trolling


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Your borderline trolling




    No you just don't live in the real world.


    There are some people who only deal in cash.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    He doesn't have the same standards as you and is far from a close friend of mine, he openly tells everyone when he has a good few drinks in him on his payday how stupid they are to be working all their life.

    He gloats on it, I've seen him order a drink for people with the line "Give him a drink on me there, shur that poor man has to work".
    Very sound of him to share his widows mite . Seems like a great guy.

    No point not taking what you're owed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,891 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Its not because I live a very modest lifestyle and have a legit income.

    Also if I was to go on the piss every night and eat in some top restaurants while paying in cash the revenue would have noway of detecting that.

    I don't have any assets so they wouldn't be coming after me.


    Either you spend it or you don't. If you spend it, whether on bills or anything else, your spending will be out of line with your declared income. Revenue are building better and better systems every day, with more and more access to data and information. If you live of undeclared cash, you will show as an exception on a Revenue report some day. They've got all the time in the world to catch up with you.



    And if you've got a pile of undeclared cash in the mattress, you've got assets.

    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Ireland is notoriously unattractive when it comes to investing in the markets ( for the average person)
    Would you care to expand on this? How are equity investors penalised in Ireland compared to property investors, as you suggested earlier?

    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Investing in high end city centre apartments usually won't involve dealing with HAP tenants
    True. That still leaves a lot of risks for potential property investors.

    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Add to that, all " in one basket" is far riskier in equities than property, any public listed company could become worthless or liks U. S steel shrink in value despite being a behemoth at one time, a house in a prime location despite technically fitting the description of " illiquid and undiversified", is still not in the same ballpark of risk.

    Too much orthodox traditional textbook, almost clichéd jargon trotted out when it comes to these things.
    Yes, all in any one equity would be very high rusk for sure.


    I'm just pointing out how people can limit their tax.
    You're just proposing criminal activity and tax fraud.

    No someone can withdraw a lot of cash over time and save it in their house.


    A lot of old people keep large amounts of cash in their homes.
    Have you considered the risks involved? It's kinda difficult to do anything about the theft of undeclared money.
    I'm talking about how someone can limit their tax liabilities if they want to pass on their wealth.
    That doesn't 'limit their tax liability'. It evades their tax liability, which is illegal.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Either you spend it or you don't. If you spend it, whether on bills or anything else, your spending will be out of line with your declared income. Revenue are building better and better systems every day, with more and more access to data and information. If you live of undeclared cash, you will show as an exception on a Revenue report some day. They've got all the time in the world to catch up with you.


    I don't think so they would have noway of knowing what you spend cash on especially in terms of services.

    And if you've got a pile of undeclared cash in the mattress, you've got assets.
    Revenue would have no way of knowing where you keep your cash.




    You're just proposing criminal activity and tax fraud.
    I don't think so the government are the biggest criminals in the state.


    Have you considered the risks involved? It's kinda difficult to do anything about the theft of undeclared money.
    Yes but if you keep cash in the right place its very unlikely to get robbed.




    That doesn't 'limit their tax liability'. It evades their tax liability, which is illegal.
    Its the same as what Denis O'Brien does but when the little man does it they try and say its illegal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Kyrie Tinkling Reimbursement


    Its the same as what Denis O'Brien does but when the little man does it they try and say its illegal.

    Nothing you've suggested is even remotely like anything the likes of D. O'Brien does to limit tax liability. But then again you know that perfectly well and are just having your fun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,069 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Let's say a great aunt died and left you a million euro, could you retire and having put the money to work, live off it?

    If so, what would you do with the money - where would you invest it?


    Idea stems from stories you read about people who either build up enough of a nest egg to retire early, replace great aunt with won it on the 3.10 @ Cheltenham if you prefer.

    Mattress.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 200 ✭✭Uncle Charlie


    Nothing you've suggested is even remotely like anything the likes of D. O'Brien does to limit tax liability. But then again you know that perfectly well and are just having your fun.




    Its no different to Denis O Brien because the end result would be you pay less tax.

    But like I say they look down on the little people trying to be "tax efficient".


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