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Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

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    #32
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,454 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Brian? wrote: »
    It would be extremely short sighted to think this is about the people murdered recently by police officers. The protesters are angry because this has been happening unseen for decades. The police are murdering black men because that’s what they’ve always done and always gotten away with it.

    This is the first generation where everyone walks around with a video camera in their pocket, so a light is being shone on the problem. Imagine how it feels to know this had been happening and you’ve been ignored for decades.

    If I was an African American I’m not sure I’d be as restrained as these protesters.


    Nevertheless, if these protests get taken over by hangers on who want to loot and pillage then they will not improve things. Martin Luther King did not advance people's rights by burning cars etc but by having orderly protests. It might require more imagination, especially as marches etc are not appropriate in a pandemic, but suitable responses and not kneejerk ones are needed.


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    #33
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    rusty cole wrote:
    also they don't know they're being manipulated either. The feel this is a new age of reason and they're the enlightened ones. Entitled would be more accurate. If they watched the BIG Hack, they'd realise how easily this stuff can be done, ****ing drones, dragging themselves out of their parents basements, pink binary hair and all!


    Was unaware this type of personal information was released!


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    #34
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,761 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    This is a subversive political movement,

    Good, the political order in the US needs some subversion that isn't supplied by a populist thug.
    driven by a desire to foster division in society and forment maximum disruption prior to the election imo.

    You opinion based on what exactly? The protests flair up every time the police murder a black person, I think it's far more related to this than the election cycle.
    This latest round of NBA protests for example are farcical. Decrying the justified shooting of Blake, while saying absolutely nothing about violence in their communities. Given the idolisation of professional athletes, their speaking out against that would be far more profound, than pushing a false narrative about police killings.

    There was nothing justified about the killing, you just think there was.

    You also ignore the amount of work done by professional athletes done in their communities in an attempt to end gang violence. Unfortunately unsuccessful attempts, because the poverty and disenfranchisement that created the ghetto culture still exist.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #35
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,761 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Nevertheless, if these protests get taken over by hangers on who want to loot and pillage then they will not improve things. Martin Luther King did not advance people's rights by burning cars etc but by having orderly protests. It might require more imagination, especially as marches etc are not appropriate in a pandemic, but suitable responses and not kneejerk ones are needed.

    You know what I do, I ignore the looting. Because it's a distraction from the genuine protests.

    Of course it's wrong, but it's too often used to delegitimise perfectly legitimate protests. Which is why you end up with 17 year old kids strapping on an AR 15 and travelling to another state to become a vigilante.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #36
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    The false narrative of systematic racism in relation to policing, that says black people are targeted and killed due to bigotry.

    Justified shooting?

    Was I misled? I have only heard so far that the man was unarmed, had been intervening in a fight, tried to get back in the car with his three kids in the back, and was grabbed from.behind by the cop with the funny name, held in place almost by his t-shirt and shot 7 times in the back from point blank range?

    Is that wrong?

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #37
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    StringerBell wrote: »
    Justified shooting?

    Was I misled? I have only heard so far that the man was unarmed, had been intervening in a fight, tried to get back in the car with his three kids in the back, and was grabbed from.behind by the cop with the funny name, held in place almost by his t-shirt and shot 7 times in the back from point blank range?

    Is that wrong?

    The Wisconsin Department of Justice has stated that he was carrying a knife outside the car.

    It was found on the driver seat mat (presumably he dropped it after being shot).

    I'm not sure if the family are contesting the claim.

    He has some kind of restraining order against him.


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    #38
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    Good, the political order in the US needs some subversion that isn't supplied by a populist thug.



    You opinion based on what exactly? The protests flair up every time the police murder a black person, I think it's far more related to this than the election cycle.

    I think they are driven by opportunism, for the enrichment of those running the organisation that you claim doesn't exist as an organisation. Right out of the Al Sharpton school of social activitism.


    Brian? wrote: »
    nothing justified about the killing, you just think there was.

    It was absolutely justified, given the actions of Blake, similar to the Brooks shooting. You can't fight/ resist police, present yourself as a threat with a weapon and expect a good outcome.
    Brian? wrote: »
    You also ignore the amount of work done by professional athletes done in their communities in an attempt to end gang violence. Unfortunately unsuccessful attempts, because the poverty and disenfranchisement that created the ghetto culture still exist.



    Nothing to do with the culture of these black communities though right? Always an external factor. I don't deny the amount of charitable work that athletes conduct, it's one of the best aspects of US sports. I'm tired of the dishonesty that happens when there's a situation where there are accusations of racism that are later shown to be false. Usually after substantial rioting and destruction, in black communities, that serve to further impoverish them. Police brutality, keeping the man down, not the rampant crime and violence in their communities.


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    #39
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    We'll hopefully learn more details. But as it stands nobody has said anywhere that he threatened the police officers with the knife. Thus no justification for shooting him. Shooting someone 7/8 times in the back, is attempted murder.

    Amazing comrarderie between the vigilantes and some police officers. Info Wars exorted militia from out of State to go to Kenosha.


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    #40
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,761 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    I think they are driven by opportunism, for the enrichment of those running the organisation that you claim doesn't exist as an organisation. Right out of the Al Sharpton school of social activitism.

    They are driven by anger IMO, and they have a right to be angry. What organisation are they enriching exactly?
    It was absolutely justified, given the actions of Blake, similar to the Brooks shooting. You can't fight/ resist police, present yourself as a threat with a weapon and expect a good outcome.

    Actually, you can. Lethal force is only justifiable when the Police officers life is in in danger. I am waiting to hear if this was the case this time, you've made up your mind.

    AFAIK, Brooks was shot running away after resisting arrest. You think it's ok to kill people for running away? The Atlanta PD certainly don't, the officer involved has been charged with murder.
    Nothing to do with the culture of these black communities though right? Always an external factor. I don't deny the amount of charitable work that athletes conduct, it's one of the best aspects of US sports. I'm tired of the dishonesty that happens when there's a situation where there are accusations of racism that are later shown to be false. Usually after substantial rioting and destruction, in black communities, that serve to further impoverish them. Police brutality, keeping the man down, not the rampant crime and violence in their communities.

    It has a lot to do with the culture. Culture isn't born from a vacuum though.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #41
    FatherTed
    Registered Users Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    The Wisconsin Department of Justice has stated that he was carrying a knife outside the car.

    It was found on the driver seat mat (presumably he dropped it after being shot).

    I'm not sure if the family are contesting the claim.

    He has some kind of restraining order against him.

    That is a lie. They did not say he was carrying a knife outside the car.

    This is the WI DOJ actual statement:
    During the incident, officers attempted to arrest Jacob S. Blake, age 29. Law enforcement deployed a taser to attempt to stop Mr. Blake, however the taser was not successful in stopping Mr. Blake. Mr. Blake walked around his vehicle, opened the driver’s side door, and leaned forward. While holding onto Mr. Blake’s shirt, Officer Rusten Sheskey fired his service weapon 7 times. Officer Sheskey fired the weapon into Mr. Blake’s back. No other officer fired their weapon. Kenosha Police Department does not have body cameras, therefore the officers were not wearing body cameras.



    The shooting officer, Kenosha Police Officer Rusten Sheskey, has been a law enforcement officer with Kenosha Police Department for seven years.



    During the investigation following the initial incident, Mr. Blake admitted that he had a knife in his possession. DCI agents recovered a knife from the driver’s side floorboard of Mr. Blake’s vehicle. A search of the vehicle located no additional weapons.

    https://www.doj.state.wi.us/news-releases/update-kenosha-officer-involved-shooting-0


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    #42
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    They are driven by anger IMO, and they have a right to be angry. What organisation are they enriching exactly?



    Actually, you can. Lethal force is only justifiable when the Police officers life is in in danger. I am waiting to hear if this was the case this time, you've made up your mind.

    AFAIK, Brooks was shot running away after resisting arrest. You think it's ok to kill people for running away? The Atlanta PD certainly don't, the officer involved has been charged with murder.



    It has a lot to do with the culture. Culture isn't born from a vacuum though.

    They're enriching themselves for one, as the opacity and evasion regarding what happens with the donations they receive shows. They are also channeling a significant portion of the money towards the Democratic party, who just happen to be fully in support of them.

    The DA in the Brooks case is up for election, and throwing **** at the wall hoping to get up support. He's also under multiple investigations for corruption himself. The charges are junk, fighting the police and taking their weapon is going to get you shot, all day long


  • Options
    #43
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,761 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    They're enriching themselves for one, as the opacity and evasion regarding what happens with the donations they receive shows. They are also channeling a significant portion of the money towards the Democratic party, who just happen to be fully in support of them.

    Are you talking about BLM here? You've lost me.
    The DA in the Brooks case is up for election, and throwing **** at the wall hoping to get up support. He's also under multiple investigations for corruption himself. The charges are junk, fighting the police and taking their weapon is going to get you shot, all day long

    You didn't answer the question. Do you think it's justifiable for the police to shoot someone who's running away and presents no threat to the officers or the public?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #44
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    Are you talking about BLM here? You've lost me.

    Yes, I am referring to BLM, as you obviously know, despite your feigned ignorance. Are you about to claim they're a movement, not an organisation again?
    Brian? wrote: »
    You didn't answer the question. Do you think it's justifiable for the police to shoot someone who's running away and presents no threat to the officers or the public?

    He did present a threat, turning your back doesn't magically erase your actions of the prior moments.


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    #45
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,761 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Yes, I am referring to BLM, as you obviously know, despite your feigned ignorance. Are you about to claim they're a movement, not an organisation again?

    Ha? I was confused because you said I denied they were an organisation. I don't recall ever doing that about BLM, but I did about Antifa.

    He did present a threat, turning your back doesn't magically erase your actions of the prior moments.

    Nope, wrong. That's why the officer is being charged with murder. It's up to a jury to decide now, not 2 random posters on the internet.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #46
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    Ha? I was confused because you said I denied they were an organisation. I don't recall ever doing that about BLM, but I did about Antifa.




    Nope, wrong. That's why the officer is being charged with murder. It's up to a jury to decide now, not 2 random posters on the internet.

    Well, it's not wrong, that's your opinion. I fully expect the officer to be exonerated.


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    #47
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    This report indicates links between many police forces and militias. A lot of these police forces will have to undergo radical restructuring and cultural change, similar to what happened in NI.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report

    The shooter may have been one of the vigilantes given water by a policeman. One policeman thanked them for coming over a loudspeaker !!!!


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    #48
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,761 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Well, it's not wrong, that's your opinion. I fully expect the officer to be exonerated.

    It’s funny how you started with the opinion that the killing was “absolutely justified”

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #49
    robertpatterson
    Registered Users Posts: 929 ✭✭✭robertpatterson


    If the police report is correct and he was tased and that didn't stop him and opened his drivers door in the full knowledge that he had a knife in the drivers side then I'd say it was justified.
    He could have hurt anyone if he had a knife including the children, the officers or passers by.


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    #50
    guitarhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭guitarhappy


    Keep in mind that burning cars and buildings, or looting, are valid forms of social protest by dis-enfranchised people's. They are NOT crimes of violence, although they are often mislabeled as such. They are property crimes.

    Crimes of violence are committed against the body of human beings, people. Black people are simply saying "Stop murdering us in cold blood. Stop shooting unarmed Black people in the back. Get your jack boot off my throat."


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    #51
    Frankie Machine
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Frankie Machine


    everlast75 wrote: »
    I was being facetious.

    However, the McCloskeys waived guns around at protesters. That was a criminal offence. They were invited to speak at the GOP convention.

    This guy has Carlson and Coulter painting him out to be a hero. You have Gaetz calling for more.

    You have this guy front and centre at a Trump rally.

    As ridiculous as it sounds, whilst he won't be invited, expect words from DJT both sides-ing the incident.

    Trespassers.


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    #52
    Frankie Machine
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Frankie Machine


    Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »
    Sounds like basically everything that was written about catholics in the north of this country by British media in the 60s/70s/80s/90s.

    The north of this island, you mean.

    Which is not this 'country', but a foreign country. Whether we like it or not.


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    #53
    Frankie Machine
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Frankie Machine


    Brian? wrote: »
    I ignore the looting. Because it's a distraction

    it's too often used to delegitimise perfectly legitimate protests.

    Hang on. It's one or the other, it can't be both.


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    #54
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 18,972 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    Frankie Machine wrote: »
    Trespassers.

    They've been charged, which means that a couple who are under criminal indictment are welcomed to the White House. The point is the same. Stop splitting hairs.

    "The Missouri couple seen in a viral video brandishing guns at protesters outside their mansion have been charged, the St. Louis circuit attorney said Monday. Patricia and Mark McCloskey are charged with unlawful use of a weapon, a class E felony"


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    #55
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 18,972 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    Frankie Machine wrote: »
    Hang on. It's one or the other, it can't be both.

    There can't be peaceful protesters marching while others loot?

    As far as I can see, facts don't matter in this argument. It's similar to arguing against someone who if a pro-gun, or an evangelical. They twist and turn whilst ignoring the larger point.

    There is systematic racism in the U.S.

    The president is a racist.

    The president supports police brutality.

    People are now catching acts of racism on camera and are angry as hell.

    I don't agree with looting. Biden doesn't agree with looting.

    But as long as people don't see why black people are angry or disenfranchised, then they of course won't agree with any form of protest.


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    #56
    kellier180
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭kellier180


    everlast75 wrote: »

    The president is a racist.


    How is he a racist? Are black communities not doing better now than they have ever done?


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    #57
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,801 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    kellier180 wrote: »
    How is he a racist? Are black communities not doing better now than they have ever done?

    If doing better than they have ever done you mean they are dying more than white people to Corona, still suffering from police brutality that their president endorses, suffering from record unemployment and still are disproportionately at the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder then yes, they are doing better now than they have ever done.
    Untitled Image




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    #58
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    kellier180 wrote: »
    How is he a racist? Are black communities not doing better now than they have ever done?

    Honestly, it's been done to death at this point. If you "don't know" how Trump is racist at this point or claim not to understand why someone would say such a thing then you will never get it so don't worry about it.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #59
    Tacitus Kilgore
    Registered Users Posts: 2,128 ✭✭✭Tacitus Kilgore


    Frankie Machine wrote: »
    The north of this island, you mean.

    Which is not this 'country', but a foreign country. Whether we like it or not.

    So you bothered quoting and replying to my post with that response? Why?


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    #60
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    They're enriching themselves for one, as the opacity and evasion regarding what happens with the donations they receive shows. They are also channeling a significant portion of the money towards the Democratic party, who just happen to be fully in support of them.

    The DA in the Brooks case is up for election, and throwing **** at the wall hoping to get up support. He's also under multiple investigations for corruption himself. The charges are junk, fighting the police and taking their weapon is going to get you shot, all day long


    Also a lot of people enriching their social media profiles.
    Never underestimate what someone will do for likes on social media.


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    #61
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    guitarhappy wrote: »
    Keep in mind that burning cars and buildings, or looting, are valid forms of social protest by dis-enfranchised people's. They are NOT crimes of violence, although they are often mislabeled as such. They are property crimes.

    Crimes of violence are committed against the body of human beings, people. Black people are simply saying "Stop murdering us in cold blood. Stop shooting unarmed Black people in the back. Get your jack boot off my throat."

    Socially protesting by stealing Gucci and Apple? Funny how they seek to protest racism by destroying black businesses and communities.


This discussion has been closed.
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