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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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Comments

  • #92
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,101 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Thats what I think will happen, as I said an unfortunate accident while trying to restrain a drug crazed criminal resisting arrest.

    continuing to keep your knee on somebodies neck after they tell you they can't breathe sure sounds accidental.


  • #93
    V8 Interceptor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭V8 Interceptor


    Chauvin can't get a fair trial. As soon as he's not given the chair they'll all kick off.

    Orientals are getting beaten up left, right and center in the US. Its blacks who are beating on them but apparently its because of white supremacism.


  • #94
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    V8 Interceptor wrote: »
    Chauvin can't get a fair trial. As soon as he's not given the chair they'll all kick off.

    Orientals are getting beaten up left, right and center in the US. Its blacks who are beating on them but apparently its because of white supremacism.

    Do you think that Chauvin is liable for the death of George Floyd?


  • #95
    Northernlily
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Northernlily


    V8 Interceptor wrote: »
    Chauvin can't get a fair trial. As soon as he's not given the chair they'll all kick off.

    Orientals are getting beaten up left, right and center in the US. Its blacks who are beating on them but apparently its because of white supremacism.

    Get for a walk and go clear your moronic ramblings.


  • #96
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    continuing to keep your knee on somebodies neck after they tell you they can't breathe sure sounds accidental.

    You're beyond naive. You'll find numerous videos online of people being arrested and them exaggerating the actions of the police: "The cuffs are too tight", "you're choking me"; or as we seen in Balbriggan, claims of racism simple because the police were arresting someone who committed a crime. Police would be well used to claims as such, made unjustly. It's very hard to treat the claims of criminals with good faith, when they usually don't believe in good faith.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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  • #97
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,156 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Aido101111 wrote: »
    What more evidence would you need to hear? It was all captured clearly on video!

    I wasn't there, I'm guessing you weren't there either. Why would you not want to hear the evidence from everyone who was there and were connected to the man's death? That evidence will be tested in a court, if its not strong enough it will not form part of jury decision.

    Why are you rushing to decision without all the facts?? All facts considered and a decision made is the best outcome for everyone.


  • #98
    V8 Interceptor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭V8 Interceptor


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Do you think that Chauvin is liable for the death of George Floyd?

    Yes


  • #99
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    You're beyond naive. You'll find numerous videos online of people being arrested and them exaggerating the actions of the police: "The cuffs are too tight", "you're choking me"; or as we seen in Balbriggan, claims of racism simple because the police were arresting someone who committed a crime. Police would be well used to claims as such, made unjustly. It's very hard to treat the claims of criminals with good faith, when they usually don't believe in good faith.

    Very pertinent post, and will certainly lead to the defence using this...


  • #100
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,156 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    What is not in doubt is that George Floyd died at the hand of that cop. It was homicide. You agree with this, correct?

    Of course there can be doubt. This is why we test the evidence (all the evidence) in the court.

    We can't discount the possibility that something else was the reason for the man dying (however unlikely we currently think that is) until we hear all the evidence. I really don't understand the mindset that decisions are made before all facts are known.

    This is not a pro-cop or an anti George Floyd stance. It's a pro justice system stance.


  • #101
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Of course there can be doubt. This is why we test the evidence (all the evidence) in the court.

    We can't discount the possibility that something else was the reason for the man dying (however unlikely we currently think that is) until we hear all the evidence. I really don't understand the mindset that decisions are made before all facts are known.

    This is not a pro-cop or an anti George Floyd stance. It's a pro justice system stance.

    I agree with you. This is what the trial is for. We'll hear all evidence.

    The evidence i've seen so far includes two autopsies saying the cause of death was homicide, plus a video of him doing it. Pretty damning so far.

    Murder? Perhaps, perhaps not. But if the trial finds that the cop was not responsible for his death i'll be very surprised.


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  • #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    walshb wrote: »
    Very pertinent post, and will certainly lead to the defence using this...

    I think you'll find whataboutism isn't a particularly useful legal defence.


  • #103
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    walshb wrote: »
    Very pertinent post, and will certainly lead to the defence using this...

    Lol!

    "Your honour, I know that there'a a video of Mr. Chavin with his knee on the neck of the victim, slowly killing him........ but have you heard about Balbriggan?"


  • #104
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Lol!

    "Your honour, I know that there'a a video of Mr. Chavin with his knee on the neck of the victim, slowly killing him........ but have you heard about Balbriggan?"

    😅


  • #105
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think you'll find whataboutism isn't a particularly useful legal defence.

    It will be a defence...

    It happens all the time. Criminals claiming this, that and the other..

    Defence will likely bring it in here. That just because Floyd was saying he was in a bad way doesn’t necessarily mean A, that he was, or B, that Chauvin believed him to be in a bad way..

    They will want to show that Chauvin did not deliberately continue to apply neck pressure whilst knowing that it was very dangerous to George..

    Yes, it transpired that he was in a bad way. But the defence will argue that Chauvin did not deliberately end his life..

    People can die from very innocuous restraining. Chauvin was entitled to restrain Floyd.

    The defence will argue that this is what happened. Chauvin correctly restrained him, but unfortunately it caused George to suffer... that Chauvin did not at all intend for death.

    This is what defenders do. They do all they can to get a win.


  • #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Of course there can be doubt. This is why we test the evidence (all the evidence) in the court.

    We can't discount the possibility that something else was the reason for the man dying (however unlikely we currently think that is) until we hear all the evidence. I really don't understand the mindset that decisions are made before all facts are known.

    This is not a pro-cop or an anti George Floyd stance. It's a pro justice system stance.

    The doubt has to be reasonable, believing that George Floyd died because of drugs, or a health condition or any other wild claim is not by any measure reasonable when his death coincided with a large male pressing his knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes as he lay prone on the ground and tried desperately to say he couldn't breathe. He cried for his mother. I'm not sure what legal test will be applied but who would hold a reasonable belief that George Floyd would have died regardless of what Derek Chauvin did? In this case causation is rock solid.

    The only issue in question is the level of intent. Derek Chauvin continued to exert force when the life drained from George Floyd's body, how can an unconscious man be resisting in any sense? The police officer denied the man any medical attention during the ordeal, wouldn't allow them check for a pulse.


  • #107
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The doubt has to be reasonable, believing that George Floyd died because of drugs, or a health condition or any other wild claim is not by any measure reasonable when his death coincided with a large male pressing his knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes as he lay prone on the ground and tried desperately to say he couldn't breathe.
    I think one part of the issue here is the erroneous belief from TV and movies that you can choke someone dead in 30 seconds. And thus if George Floyd was "awake" for five minutes then the officer can't have been choking him.

    The reality is that in order to actually choke someone dead, you have to be pressing on their throat for 5-15 minutes. They are usually unconscious quite quickly, but that's not always guaranteed. Restricted air and blood flow to the brain over a prolonged period can result in death without immediate unconsciousness.

    As you point out, the defence's argument is going to have to be that

    a) Kneeling on the neck for a prolonged period is a standard and proportionate technique for restraining a handcuffed suspect.
    b) Any other suspect in a reasonable state of health would not have been severely injured by this act.

    Even if they can prove the second, the first will be harder.

    It's the US though, so if they can get Floyd labelled "criminal" in court, then the bar for the jury is much lower.

    In Ireland if a suspect had alerted Gardai to a potential health issue as George Floyd did - around breathing especially - then any act by the Garda which affected breathing would be disproportionate. The onus would be on the Garda to show that they took special precautions in light of the suspect's health concerns.
    I don't think that would be a factor in the US though.


  • #108
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    What is not in doubt is that George Floyd died at the hand of that cop. It was homicide. You agree with this, correct?

    Homicide is the act of one human killing another. A homicide requires only a volitional act by another person that results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental, reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm.

    probably based on that definition but he should face no sanction if accidental.

    I'm neutral until I hear actual evidence not agenda driven propaganda nor wailing from over emotional grief junkies.

    Floyd and chavin are both entitled to a fair hand from justice and the law. Lets hope that happens


  • #109
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    paw patrol wrote: »
    probably based on that definition but he should face no sanction if accidental.
    Accidental deaths are often punishable by law if the death occurred as the result of a direct action by another.

    In Ireland we call it manslaughter, in the US they call it 3rd-degree murder.


  • #110
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    paw patrol wrote: »
    I'm neutral until I hear actual evidence not agenda driven propaganda nor wailing from over emotional grief junkies.

    This very sentence shows your opinions seem to be agenda driven.


  • #111
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,316 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I don't see how they can go with murder on it, but my god it will not be well received by the public.

    Im personally predicting manslaughter unless they can truly hammer home the toxicology report evidence. The public won't like it but its the right thing to do, 8-10 years.




    With the toxicology, the prior interaction, the fact that if you can say you can't breathe then you can breathe, I don't expect any conviction. If there is, it is IMO because the jury bowed to social media and in person pressure from the black supremacy and white knight groups.




    It's a pity that the detained man died but there is no way you can say (at all, let alone beyond reasonable doubt) given the history of multiple drug abuse and the lethal level of fentanyl in the mans blood, that his death was solely attributable to officer Chauvin's actions.


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  • #112
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    seamus wrote: »
    Accidental deaths are often punishable by law if the death occurred as the result of a direct action by another.

    In Ireland we call it manslaughter, in the US they call it 3rd-degree murder.

    manslaughter mentions reckless behaviour but not accidental death (i cant find it)
    of course, there is degrees and nuance - that's why judges summary's exist and disparity in sentencing


  • #113
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,316 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    paw patrol wrote: »
    probably based on that definition but he should face no sanction if accidental.

    I'm neutral until I hear actual evidence not agenda driven propaganda nor wailing from over emotional grief junkies.

    Floyd and chavin are both entitled to a fair hand from justice and the law. Lets hope that happens


    Agree.
    The reasonable doubt logically presented by the presence of a lethal level of fentanyl should lead to no conviction at all, let alone no murder conviction, imo. But I'm watching the trial in and out during work with great interests.


    I also find it funny, btw, that one side is leading with a black lawyer and the other side a white lawyer. The side with the black lawyer is supported by a number of black supremacist groups. America is such a polarized society at this point that I don't see what they are going to do to solve this issue.


  • #114
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    osarusan wrote: »

    But kneeling on somebody's neck for 9 minutes, as they tell you they can't breathe,

    Floyd also told the cop he wouldn't get into the back of the police car because he's claustrophobic...believing what criminals tell you when trying to arrest them will end badly more often than not.


  • #115
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    ELM327 wrote: »
    It's a pity that the detained man died but there is no way you can say (at all, let alone beyond reasonable doubt) given the history of multiple drug abuse and the lethal level of fentanyl in the mans blood, that his death was solely attributable to officer Chauvin's actions.

    Two autopsies have said otherwise.


  • #116
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,316 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Two autopsies have said otherwise.
    Thats interesting, even the prosecution lawyer said in opening statements that the level of fentanyl in mr floyd's system would be lethal to most people but because of his level of tolerance built up, it wasnt for him.


    Why would the prosecution say that?


  • #117
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    paw patrol wrote: »
    manslaughter mentions reckless behaviour but not accidental death (i cant find it)

    Slipping in the shower is an accident.

    Kneeling on someone's neck until they die is no accident


  • #118
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    This very sentence shows your opinions seem to be agenda driven.



    I'm merely an observer out of curiosity.

    I've no connection to USA , never been and maybe never will - and I don't care too much about it other than lamenting the influence the USA has on our life/economy and culture.
    Maybe that is my bias ?who knows...


  • #119
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,316 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Slipping in the shower is an accident.

    Kneeling on someone's neck until they die is no accident
    If you kneel on someones neck to restrain them after they have o'd , did you kill them?


  • #120
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Thats interesting, even the prosecution lawyer said in opening statements that the level of fentanyl in mr floyd's system would be lethal to most people but because of his level of tolerance built up, it wasnt for him.


    Why would the prosecution say that?

    So the prosecution said that the fentanyl didn't kill him. Great.


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  • #121
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    ELM327 wrote: »
    If you kneel on someones neck to restrain them after they have o'd , did you kill them?

    He didn't OD though. You're making that up.

    You say so yourself
    ELM327 wrote: »
    the level of fentanyl in mr floyd's system would be lethal to most people but because of his level of tolerance built up, it wasnt for him.


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