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What is the appeal of liberalism?

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  • #92
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 32,972 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    And what can one say to somebody that the SJW/extreme element have hijacked modern liberalism, and bastarsized it beyond all recognition. And to be honest if the extremes are taking over it is time for the reasonable majority of all hues, to start shouting and drowning them out,

    Nothing. I don't entertain them.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #93
    eleventh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭eleventh


    Modern liberalism is better termed 'progressivism'. It is aggressively single-minded. It's the direct opposite of conservatism which is also single-minded.

    Liberalism is more about questioning things, or allowing or turning a blind eye to things someone who's conservative or progressive would not.

    Liberalism is more a middle ground. Without it though, progressivism could not exist. ( Liberalism can be 'a gateway' to progressivism).


  • #94
    Blush_01
    Registered Users Posts: 5,016 ✭✭✭Blush_01


    Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me!

    Does that make me a conservative?


  • #95
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    seamus wrote: »
    Liberalism by contrast involves taking all points of view - even ones you may not personally like - and making the decision that is as inclusive as possible.

    You're such a filthy libtard Seamus. Jesus didn't die so we could be all empathetic and gay! :mad:


  • #96
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Conservatives aren't victims and no amount of unsubstantiated guff is going to prove otherwise.

    Progressives aren't rebels, fighting the establishment, they are the establishment


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  • #97
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    doublejobbing 2 wrote: »
    I've never understood campaigning for rights for others that are denied to yourself.

    Take, for example, direct provision.

    A great amount of people marching in the streets over it will be students.

    Some, many, of these students will be from the countryside, living in Dublin.

    They are marching for own door accommodation (read- a house/ flat all to yourself) for people who have been in the country five minutes, who already receive free health care, free accommodation and a weekly government stipend, among many other things.

    These people are in the country five minutes and get more free stuff than the student marching gets. The student likely doesn't have a medical card, doesn't receive a training allowance, and pays (or their parents pay) for a shared bedroom in a dump of a house in Rathmines etc.

    In many cases an asylum seeker arriving in this country today has more chance of obtaining a "forever home" within five years than the 18 year old student marching on their behalf does within 20 years. Most programme refugees will receive their forever home within five months.

    It's mind boggling stupidity. A similar example- BLM marchers who would be beat and robbed at the first opportunity by most of the violent recidivist felons they martyr when one gets on the wrong side of a cop.




    What rights are denied to you?


    I think a gay person should be allowed to marry another gay person. I'm not gay and this right isn't denied to me.


    I think a woman should have the right to do whatever she wants with her body. I'm not a female so maybe I'm denied this right but I don't see it in law.


    As a male I can say that I wholeheartedly am happy to pay my tax money to help people with needs that will never be in my own basket of requirements.


  • #98
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    victor8600 wrote: »
    How about socialism? No gay marriage in the old Union of the Soviet Republic. Order and obedience, that should be right up your alley, no?


    No gay marriage in Ireland EITHER until 2015, NO?

    No gay marriage in a lot of places a long time AFTER the USSR demise.....or are you just using that as some kind of tin-can rattler.

    No way you could smoke weed to ease your arthritis in America until 2013. There are pensioners serving decades in prisons in America for smoking a joint.

    Order and Obedience indeed.


  • #99
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Far Right and far Left are different sides of the same coin.

    Classical Liberalism has been hijacked in recent years by the regressive left and it's an awful shame.

    Theres a toxic culture out there at the moment, especially in the US. To see violent racial hate groups like BLM hold such sway over the national media is scary.


  • #100
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    You know, before we delved into 2020s American reductionism; trying to define entire modern culture in terms of 'option a' vs 'option b' things were going pretty well.

    We're running on a mix of liberal, progressive, traditional, individualist, collectivist, socialist and capitalist values all at the same time.

    We could really do with just letting the US sort its toxic mess out and not trying to adopt its bunker mentality.

    We may share a language and aspects of a common western culture, but we do not share much of the historically divided mess that has led to the US being where it is today and we shouldn't be trying to emulate it.

    All I see in the US at the moment is labels being applied, and people on the opposite side being dehumanised as tribes form. It's an ugly mess and it needs to be resolved before it turns extremely nasty.


  • #101
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,810 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hilarious to see right-wingers posting about how liberalism has been 'hijacked' and isn't it such a shame...

    As if they'd have otherwise championed gay rights, abortion rights, etc... :rolleyes:

    Same crap as the "I would have voted yes, but dem gheys were too strident / dem wimmins were too shrill" lot. Fools no-one.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • #102
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    CharlesMartel wrote: »
    I disagree. Conservative are usually cool how you live your life, they just don't want to pay for it




    Liberals don't mind paying for anyone who needs it....including conservatives.


  • #103
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    John Frank Wilson wrote: »
    What is it they say... something like:

    If you're not a liberal when you are young, you have no heart - and if you're not a conservative when you are old, you have no brain.

    Or something like that...


    Kind of makes adults look like scum though, doesn't it?


    Go into any kindergarten and the little ones share everything. The big girls help the smaller girls to put their pigtails back up. They SHARE and they help each other.


    Such a dreadful display of Marxism, wouldn't you say?


    If a child forgot his or her sandwich...others would hand over some of theirs.



    So who are the scumbags? The ones who help or the ones who need help?




    Or is it....."once you're big you get to be a prick?"


  • #104
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,032 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    As a male I can say that I wholeheartedly am happy to pay my tax money to help people with needs that will never be in my own basket of requirements.

    I too am happy to pay tax to redistribute to people who face a risk/contingency that I will not (hopefully) ever face:

    unemployment / illness / disability / permanent injury

    However, I am not happy to pay tax to redistribute my income to the many, many able-bodied adults in Ireland who fraudulently claim welfare.


  • #105
    Kraftwerk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭Kraftwerk


    "You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination."

    So you were brainwashed into thinking your life exists to serve a country or religion is what you're telling us.

    One big appeal of liberalism is moving away from ignorant and limiting beliefs of the past.


  • #106
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,032 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Theres a toxic culture out there at the moment, especially in the US. To see violent racial hate groups like BLM hold such sway over the national media is scary.

    Yes.

    I note that some cousins of mine support BLM.

    Maybe they don't realise that BLM are communists?

    I often think the best argument against this is to look at the fall of the Berlin wall.

    People were trying to escape from communism, not to it!!!



    BLM also seem to want babies/children reared collectively, instead of in families. Do their supporters realise this?


  • #107
    46 Long
    Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭46 Long


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Speaking as a millennial, this simply isn't possible. There are no jobs 'good' enough to replicate the lives those retiring now had. The way the world worked in my parent's generation simply doesn't exist any more. To conserve that way of life is to sentence mine and subsequent generates to poverty,

    Of course there are. Programmers with 5 years experience are earning 70k and up in Dublin. If you think that's 'poverty' you might want to consider personal finance lessons.
    ironclaw wrote: »
    the status quo has to be radically changed in a number of facets of life.

    You're making the dangerous assumption that this radical change would improve things. We've been through every conceivable form of government over the past few hundred years and as flawed as it is, the status quo is still demonstrably the best of the lot.


  • #108
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,032 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    I think a woman should have the right to do whatever she wants with her body. I'm not a female so maybe I'm denied this right but I don't see it in law.

    Are there any limits to this?

    Can she cut off her own arm?

    Can she go into the hospital and demand that her own arm be cut off?


  • #109
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,032 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Speaking as a millennial, this simply isn't possible. There are no jobs 'good' enough to replicate the lives those retiring now had. The way the world worked in my parent's generation simply doesn't exist any more. To conserve that way of life is to sentence mine and subsequent generates to poverty, and increase an ever-increasing wealth gap. I'm an entrepreneur myself, work my back off and I'd be fairly conservation on corporate taxes etc but conservatism simply doesn't work in the broader sense, the status quo has to be radically changed in a number of facets of life.


    I see where you are coming from, and in terms of housing costs, in urban areas, I agree with you.

    However, please note that, in Ireland, income inequality has got narrower.


  • #110
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Speaking as a millennial, this simply isn't possible. There are no jobs 'good' enough to replicate the lives those retiring now had. The way the world worked in my parent's generation simply doesn't exist any more. To conserve that way of life is to sentence mine and subsequent generates to poverty, and increase an ever-increasing wealth gap. I'm an entrepreneur myself, work my back off and I'd be fairly conservation on corporate taxes etc but conservatism simply doesn't work in the broader sense, the status quo has to be radically changed in a number of facets of life.

    This is a common belief that doesn't stand to reason.

    It is very lazy to imagine that whomever you are calling boomers had an easy life.

    You are generally seeing the cumulative product of a lifetime of hardwork and sacrifice.

    The vast majority of millennials (i am one too) are extremely blinkered on all this. Raised by the internet and lied to with memes.

    The simplification of complex things into simple stories for underdeveloped minds


  • #111
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Liberals complain about the 'nanny state' but want that same nanny state to pay for them be it welfare, free health care....

    True freedom should mean you are financially independent and have private healthcare and never take state healthcare... of course you will get a tax cut...
    Sound familiar?


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  • #112
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    Kraftwerk wrote: »
    "You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination."

    So you were brainwashed into thinking your life exists to serve a country or religion is what you're telling us.

    One big appeal of liberalism is moving away from ignorant and limiting beliefs of the past.

    Yea but also ideally not ushering in new ones.


  • #113
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    nofools wrote: »
    This is a common belief that doesn't stand to reason.

    It is very lazy to imagine that whomever you are calling boomers had an easy life.

    You are generally seeing the cumulative product of a lifetime of hardwork and sacrifice.

    The vast majority of millennials (i am one too) are extremely blinkered on all this. Raised by the internet and lied to with memes.

    The simplification of complex things into simple stories for underdeveloped minds

    They might think that Ireland was always a wealthy country. They dont know any different.


  • #114
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    They might think that Ireland was always a wealthy country. They dont know any different.

    Is ignorance an excuse?


  • #115
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    They might think that Ireland was always a wealthy country. They dont know any different.

    All the knowledge in the world at the touch of a button in their pocket yet they remain so uneducated.

    A little less TikTok...


  • #116
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    nofools wrote: »
    Is ignorance an excuse?

    Depends on who you ask. Some will take it on the chin while others will always feel like the victim. Rightly or wrongly


  • #117
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Rodin wrote: »
    All the knowledge in the world at the touch of a button in their pocket yet they remain so uneducated.

    A little less TikTok...

    There was no tik tok on my day! Internet arrived and you couldn't use the land line at the same time. That's as good as it got.

    The entire history and knowledge of mankind at the touch of a button now.


  • #118
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    CountNjord wrote: »
    Liberals are ok to meet at a party,art gallery or for a general chit chat.

    But for the love of mother earth don't talk, education politics, religion or current affairs or sociology with them, because that's the trigger...

    Talk about dog's,cats, plants, poetry, music ,art and you'll get along ok with them.

    I found out the hard way, they seem to get their hackles up over certain subjects, so just keep it simple and civil :)


    Interesting.


    I'm a liberal, in that I insist that you be allowed to live your life the way you see fit. I also expect my taxes to go to make your life better or at least tolerable. I don't have tits or a vagina (I'm a male) but I'm happy to have my taxes go to hopefully prevent breast and/or cervical problems in both YOUR mother/sister/daughter and mine. Now those who scream "FCUK Socialism! FCUK Liberalism" are the very ones who expect a society to help THEM when the chips are down. But they will not accept others in need.


    And anyone who calls them out on this hypocrisy, such as myself, is labelled, a tree-hugger, or a hippy or an enemy of the state.


    I don't particularly like cats, dogs OR plants. In fact I couldn't give a toss about them. But they are there. They have their place. And my place isn't to fcuk with them.


    That's liberalism.


  • #119
    nofools
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭nofools


    I would generally agree with Alan Shatter but my god have I learned to hate the company of cat obsessive social justice types.


  • #120
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 32,972 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Rodin wrote: »
    Liberals complain about the 'nanny state' but want that same nanny state to pay for them be it welfare, free health care....

    True freedom should mean you are financially independent and have private healthcare and never take state healthcare... of course you will get a tax cut...
    Sound familiar?

    I think thats Libertarians, not liberals.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #121
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 32,972 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Geuze wrote: »
    Yes.

    I note that some cousins of mine support BLM.

    Maybe they don't realise that BLM are communists?

    I often think the best argument against this is to look at the fall of the Berlin wall.

    People were trying to escape from communism, not to it!!!



    BLM also seem to want babies/children reared collectively, instead of in families. Do their supporters realise this?

    Is there any evidence to suggest that BLM is Marxist (not communist - theres a difference) than 'the organizers studied it and used it for organization'? I mean, the idea that they want a Soviet-style regime installed is stretching things a bit, surely; to the point you're using this as a technicality to condemn them because it's all you've got?

    I could use the save argument to portray the IRA as imperian Roman conquerers.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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