BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Mr. Karate · 29-06-2020 5:29pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed, which is why BLM movement is reminding people that BLM too.

Except they actually want superior rights. Not equal rights.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 5:29pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

"can we get this changed"...are you serious? Why don't they change it themselves by valuing education, keeping their kids out of crime, ensuring that black fathers stick around (something like 65% of black fathers in UK leave the mother of their child as single mothers, compared with 15% of white fathers).

Always be on the look out for people trying to find an external bogeyman. Reminds me of a teenager who blames their parents, their teachers and everyone else for their own problems.

So its all in their heads and their is no institutionalized racism in the US?

As soon as slavery was abolished everyone was equal?

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 5:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's probably cultural rather than genetic. A cycle of behavior passed from father to son, or from mother to son, (depending on how the mother behaved after the father left)

In any case though, he's right about the valuing education, and keeping their kids out of crime. A lot of research over the last decade suggests that one of the biggest reasons for Black males not becoming successful is due to their exposure to crime. Failing education would be another glaringly obvious factor, and yet, look at the rolemodels in Black culture... the pimp, gangster, rapper, etc. People who speak of killing others, insulting women, and calling other black people Nigg**.

Culture plays an important role in the development of people, but within Black culture there is so little debate about changing themselves. Instead, everything is someone elses fault. There are millions of Black people living middle class lifestyles... what was different for them? That's the question you should be asking, since they would have faced the same racial discrimination.

So what you are saying is that all black people should value education and avoiding crime, perhaps become doctors and lawyers, and *then* get harassed and shot by the police because of the colour of the skin.

How you can saw "culture plays an important role" and keep a straight face is beyond me. What about the culture of slavery and racism?

Those same people living middle class lifestyles are also unfairly targeted by police, harassed and in many cases killed without repurcussions.
How are you not getting this? Its not just a bunch of lazy feckers trying to "get some" from the white man.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 5:34pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Except they actually want superior rights. Not equal rights.

What are these superior rights? Can you share some links?

Is there any chance that perhaps you are taking the word of a few people who are using BLM for their own ends?
Perhaps I can point you to neo nazis and the KKK to give examples of how the WLM movement is looking for supremacy?

[Deleted User] · 29-06-2020 5:42pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So what you are saying is that all black people should value education and avoiding crime, perhaps become doctors and lawyers, and *then* get harassed and shot by the police because of the colour of the skin.

You could just stick to what I said.... it's really not that difficult. No need to make **** up.:rolleyes:

How you can saw "culture plays an important role" and keep a straight face is beyond me. What about the culture of slavery and racism?

A culture that Black people themselves have encouraged to exist by refusing to move past it. Instead, every conversation, every debate, every complaint refers back to the history of slavery, and the issues of racism...

They haven't done it alone. The White populations in the US have played a major role in the creation of such a culture, but since the civil rights movement with Martin L King, what attempts have Black people made to put that history behind them? The African American activists and people have done a very good job at maintaining that culture of negative perspectives/attitudes.

Those same people living middle class lifestyles are also unfairly targeted by police, harassed and in many cases killed without repurcussions

Citations. please..

How are you not getting this? Its not just a bunch of lazy feckers trying to "get some" from the white man.

How am I not getting what? The complete acceptance of a victim mentality? Or that I seek a more balanced viewpoint to the situation recognising the responsibilities of both the Black and White populations.... Shocking isn't it?

Mr. Karate · 29-06-2020 5:42pm

GreeBo wrote: »

What are these superior rights? Can you share some links?

Is there any chance that perhaps you are taking the word of a few people who are using BLM for their own ends?
Perhaps I can point you to neo nazis and the KKK to give examples of how the WLM movement is looking for supremacy?

What rights do Whites have but they don't?

Annasopra · 29-06-2020 5:43pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

But the whole BLM bull**** movement is about exactly that and it's an attack against white people.

I tell you for a fact if I went out tomorrow an done up a sign white lives matter.... I'd be attacked.

Its an attack against racists. Not White People. Racists.

cfuserkildare · 29-06-2020 5:46pm

So the fella that flew the White Lives Matter over the Etihad didn't get Sacked?

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 5:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Be more specific.

At the same time, you're dismissing the negatives and focusing on the external issues of discrimination. That black communities don't receive the same levels of investment as (many, not all) white communities is well known, although, the case could be made that Black communities have managed to destroy so much infrastructure and services in their areas, that such investment would be a waste. It's extremely difficult to find teachers and others to work in black communities due to the racism they receive from black people themselves. Basically if you're not black, you're not welcome.

... you skipped over what I said. There are millions of Black people in middle class homes, and also (this is extra) over a million of black people living upper class lifestyles in the US. How did they achieve that success when they would have experienced the same levels of discrimination.....?

And... don't get me started on womens rights. You have enough on your plate with black issues.

This point is not constrained to black people - there are plenty of deprived communities in Dublin or Ireland more generally that are largely white or majority white, that destroy lots of infrastructure. But saying that further investment is pointless is just how ghettos get created and perpetuated and you'd be condemning future generations.

I find it amazing that people can't see that inputs define outputs in most cases, unless theres intervention. If society creates all these disenfranchised people who feel like they're nothing to lose and their life isnt worth much anyway.... and then act surprised when these same people behave like people who don't value their lives? Its perfectly foreseeable.

I know there are middle class and even wealthy black people -obviously there are, but is there a proportionate number? We know there isn't.
How do you explain how many people of colour are in prison in the US relative to the overall population?

I know if I broke the law, I'd reasonably fancy my chances in front of the courts because;
1. I'd present well - educated, well dressed, articulate
2. I know my rights and expect to be treated well and fairly
3. I can afford good legal representation

Thats because I'm a product of my own middle class environment.

Not everyone has all that and we know those that don't tend to have worse outcomes.

Mr. Karate · 29-06-2020 5:48pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its an attack against racists. Not White People. Racists.

Which conveniently enough s every White person alive today. And only White people.

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 5:51pm

cfuserkildare wrote: »

So the fella that flew the White Lives Matter over the Etihad didn't get Sacked?

Of course he got sacked and rightly so. But he didn't get arrested.

Companies are well within their rights to discipline (and terminate) employees who make a public disgrace of themselves.

I've a clause in my contract about bringing my employer into disrepute - its totally standard.

Same as that woman in New York who rang 911 on a black man who asked her to put her dog on a lead and alleged that he was threatening her life. She also got sacked. Was it anything to do with her job? No. Did she make a public disgrace of herself and reflect beyond poorly on anyone associated wiht her? Absolutely.

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 5:53pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Which conveniently enough s every White person alive today. And only White people.

You're being hysterical.

If you're not racist, then BLM is no threat to you.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 5:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Citations. please..

Wow, so you are saying that you are unware of racial profiling in the US?

It seems your opinions originate from a position of ignorance.

How about the state attorney being pulled over for no reason?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FEPDJnyTcY

How about a DR treating homeless people being handcuffed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxebsmN_t4M

How about two men being pulled over because they went shopping?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EHWgR6yVU

How about a man being attacked by police while he sits on the porch of his house?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nir_iY01PpE

How about a student having a gun pulled on him because he is picking up rubbish outside his dorm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9SZlypyK-4

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 6:00pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

What rights do Whites have but they don't?

The right to not be harassed or shot, top of my head.

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 6:01pm

Anyhow, I'm off out into the real world.

For those of you who aren't too fragile to read it, this is an interesting article. I find it interesting in how it mirrors much of the rhetoric that we've seen in this thread.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

[Deleted User] · 29-06-2020 6:02pm

SozBbz wrote: »

This point is not constrained to black people - there are plenty of deprived communities in Dublin or Ireland more generally that are largely white or majority white, that destroy lots of infrastructure. But saying that further investment is pointless is just how ghettos get created and perpetuated and you'd be condemning future generations.

Except that we are (I assume) talking about the US and the lack of services that most Black communities have. The case could be made since there has been such destruction of services, and the inability to bring in external workforces due to the crime and racism (directed towards the external employees).

This is not about condemning anyone. This is about identifying what are the real problems that contribute to the overall situation. Discrimination and racism against the Black communities is definitely a factor. However, Black culture with it's focus on negative or anti-social behavior is another factor.

If you are unwilling or unable to recognise the importance of looking at all the factors equally, then you're not really seeking to resolve the problem. Simply expecting the lives of Black people to improve because discrimination stops, is unrealistic since they would still have a youth culture that praises criminals, murderers, etc

I find it amazing that people can't see that inputs define outputs in most cases, unless theres intervention. If society creates all these disenfranchised people who feel like they're nothing to lose and their life isnt worth much anyway.... and then act surprised when these same people behave like people who don't value their lives? Its perfectly foreseeable.

Naturally. When you box in the behaviors to certain parameters that don't reflect reality.

I know there are middle class and even wealthy black people -obviously there are, but is there a proportionate number? We know there isn't.

What is that proportionate number? Is there an acceptable one considering the difference in populations between black, white, Hispanic and Asian populations? Are are you looking for complete parity?

How do you explain how many people of colour are in prison in the US relative to the overall population?

I don't need to... it's been done to death over dozens of threads, and millions of articles. You seem to think that I'm saying that Black people have a wonderful life, and don't experience discrimination or racism.... I don't.

Not everyone has all that and we know those that don't tend to have worse outcomes.

Sure... No idea how it relates to what we're discussing though. You keep flipping on and off the topic.

[Deleted User] · 29-06-2020 6:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Wow, so you are saying that you are unware of racial profiling in the US?

Actually I was looking for statistics relating to those middle and upper class being targeted per your original statement... not individual reports.

And I'm fully aware of racial profiling.

I find the manner of this discussion quite funny because there is the assumption that if you're not agreeing completely with the mainstream posters, then you must be denying that Black people are being targeted. I know they are....

nj27 · 29-06-2020 6:09pm

SozBbz wrote: »

Anyhow, I'm off out into the real world.

For those of you who aren't too fragile to read it, this is an interesting article. I find it interesting in how it mirrors much of the rhetoric that we've seen in this thread.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

You're going back to the real world are ya? From the article:

Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry.

If somebody acted like that in front of me I would legitimately question their mental health. I have never seen somebody act like that in the face of any accusation, outside of the show to catch a predator maybe.

endacl · 29-06-2020 6:17pm

You know, when I first heard ‘all lives matter’, it seemed like a simple, self-explanatory and reasonable statement to me too. Of course, then I had to go and have a think about it. Why would people have such a reaction to such a simple, self-explanatory and reasonable statement? Who couldn’t agree with that? Of course, I was in, as many people are, a zero-sum mindset. One must negate the other. Which of course, they don’t. I don’t have a problem with BLM because it makes sense. Not as a slogan, so much as a nudge to thinking. If you don’t realise the subtext you’re really not thinking hard enough. And yes, I know. I’m not racist. I’m not part of the problem. However, if I’m not part of the solution, I might as well be.

Also. ‘White lives matter’? Fcuk off. You’re just being an arse, and you know it. It’s not big and it’s not clever.

[Deleted User] · 29-06-2020 6:42pm

nj27 wrote: »

You're going back to the real world are ya? From the article:

Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry.

If somebody acted like that in front of me I would legitimately question their mental health. I have never seen somebody act like that in the face of any accusation, outside of the show to catch a predator maybe.

"The same point was raised by Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post, who writes: "any alternative perspective or counterargument is defeated by the concept itself. Either white people admit their inherent and unending racism and vow to work on their white fragility, in which case DiAngelo was correct in her assessment, or they resist such categorizations or question the interpretation of a particular incident, in which case they are only proving her point"

So... a stacked deck. What a wonderful approach to seeking to promote equality... :rolleyes::D

southstar · 29-06-2020 7:46pm

nj27 wrote: »

You're going back to the real world are ya? From the article:

Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry.

If somebody acted like that in front of me I would legitimately question their mental health. I have never seen somebody act like that in the face of any accusation, outside of the show to catch a predator maybe.

Equally It would be interesting to get DiAngelos take on how black people in turn might reflect on racism within themselves and their own communities ..and perhaps also take a more self critical look at the victim mentality that is peddled so casually and cynically to them.
I'd say you'll see plenty of shouting and bluster alright

Bobblehats · 29-06-2020 7:46pm

See the problem here, when we’re bombarded with such a slogan we think a species is in decline or something what’s the forecast for the population of Africa a couple of billion? Europe maintaining a modest 500 million or so. I should think under those circumstances white lives certainly matter more although neither is particularly in decline. In the case of Africa, far from it in that context an acknowledge that black lives do indeed matter; to a degree but they are becoming all the more dispensable

4068ac1elhodqr · 29-06-2020 8:11pm

Bobblehats wrote: »

See the problem here, when we’re bombarded with such a slogan we think a species is in decline or something what’s the forecast for the population of Africa a couple of billion? Europe maintaining a modest 500 million or so. I should think under those circumstances white lives certainly matter more although neither is particularly in decline. In the case of Africa, far from it in that context an acknowledge that black lives do indeed matter; to a degree but they are becoming all the more dispensable

2.5bn (doubling between now) by 2050 (half of which will be under 25).

EU then still barely 500m, brexland with it's moat drawbridge pulled up, likely too an Italiaxit and Franc-off (-100m). Which leaves U'Ireland as the prime desired fly-to asylum destination, for any English speakers from former britishcolonies.

The EU (areas with good welfare* deals) may well be colonised by Africa (and Asia), if it boils down to a numbers game. *Bear in mind by 2050 automation (wave 3) will be fully complete, with potential for an ai near/super-intelligence making even the most fluent, skilled, educated and experienced of EU workers fit for the scrapheap.

Mr. Karate · 29-06-2020 8:12pm

southstar wrote: »

Equally It would be interesting to get DiAngelos take on how black people in turn might reflect on racism within themselves and their own communities ..and perhaps also take a more self critical look at the victim mentality that is peddled so casually and cynically to them.
I'd say you'll see plenty of shouting and bluster alright

Blacks seem to believe that they are the only group of people to have been persecuted so they're not capable of self reflection when it comes to racism.

briany · 29-06-2020 9:04pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

IF BLM actually gave a **** about Black Lives then they would be protesting in Chicago 24/7. They'd be condemning the slavery of Blacks in parts of Africa that go on to this day. Never a peep out of them about that. Just lame deflections.

This sounds like a bit of cheap rhetoric to me. If x cause does anything less than address and attempt to solve a massive list of ongoing issues that it could possibly be said to be associated with then it must be hypocritical and therefore phony? My god, it almost sounds like something you could handily use to undermine and discredit almost all protest movements. Nice.

Slowyourrole · 30-06-2020 7:57am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

BLM are not a good representation of their namesake, I had no time for them when they stormed the stage of a Bernie Sanders address and grabbed the mic of the old man demanding they give them the stage or they will shut down the event and I have not time for them as enter private gated property because they passed it and thought it looked like a nice house they wanted to destroy, at least the home owners were willing to fight back.

When a group says among its goals are "to dismantling capitalism and the patriarchal system, disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure" you know you are not dealing with sound minded people.

If anyone wants the real explanation for the video. A politician released the names and addresses of people who wrote to her about issues. Protestors responded by going to her house to protest outside. The people pointing guns at unarmed protestors simply lived on the route.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 7:57am

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually I was looking for statistics relating to those middle and upper class being targeted per your original statement... not individual reports.

And I'm fully aware of racial profiling.

I find the manner of this discussion quite funny because there is the assumption that if you're not agreeing completely with the mainstream posters, then you must be denying that Black people are being targeted. I know they are....

So you know they are yet want me to provide statistics?
If black people are targeted them it doesn't matter that they are poor or rich or unemployed or middle class, they are still black so are still targeted.

The narrative I was replying to was that it's their own fault for not having better education or family values, at if that would somehow change the colour of their skin.

sydthebeat · 30-06-2020 8:09am

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Which conveniently enough s every White person alive today. And only White people.

When you have the president of America sharing videos of people giving a one fisted salute shouting "white power, white power".... You know there is a very serious problem

[Deleted User] · 30-06-2020 9:12am

GreeBo wrote: »

So you know they are yet want me to provide statistics?
If black people are targeted them it doesn't matter that they are poor or rich or unemployed or middle class, they are still black so are still targeted.

The narrative I was replying to was that it's their own fault for not having better education or family values, at if that would somehow change the colour of their skin.

Except that I never suggested that anything would change the color of their own skin.... or that the discrimination/racism that exists would stop because of it.

For me, I find that there is complete focus on external problems for BLM and/or the Black communities. Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others. Rather than improve themselves through education, and avoidance of trouble, their culture idolizes role-models who have failed education, and have engaged in crime.

For the lives of Black people to improve, Black culture needs to evolve away from the constant victim narrative and take responsibility for their own failings. There's no need to stop talking about police brutality, or racism. It's not one or the other.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 9:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that I never suggested that anything would change the color of their own skin.... or that the discrimination/racism that exists would stop because of it.

For me, I find that there is complete focus on external problems for BLM and/or the Black communities. Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others. Rather than improve themselves through education, and avoidance of trouble, their culture idolizes role-models who have failed education, and have engaged in crime.

For the lives of Black people to improve, Black culture needs to evolve away from the constant victim narrative and take responsibility for their own failings.

So your problem with BLM is that they dont focus on all the other issues within the black community? Why should they? Why does wanting to resolve one issue mean you have to resolve all issues also? This is not how anything is achieved in the world today. If you want to get things done you focus on individual things, you dont try to boil the ocean and achieve nothing.

How can they evolve away from the victim narrative when you yourself agree they are victims of racism and police brutality (amongst other things)? To then say they need to take responsibility is the height of ignorance and victim blaming to the extreme. How do you take responsibility for others being racist towards you exactly?
What failings in the black community are responsible for racism? Do you think these same failings dont exist in the non-black community?

There's no need to stop talking about police brutality, or racism. It's not one or the other.

If its not one or the other, why do you have an issue with BLM focusing on racism and police brutality?

Your posts are very contradictory and frankly all over the place. You blame black people for the racism thats directed at them without a hint of irony.

BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

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