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14-05-2020, 12:43   #61
hello2020
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I would be of the view to be careful of what you wish for. If wfh becomes widespread especially in our small country, why not lose all the expensive Irish employees and use workers in cheaper countries to do the same work. Surely the larger companies will take this as an opportunity to sideline expensive employees and manage expensive costs off their accounts
This. Remote working means Business will move jobs from Dublin to cheaper places like India (not to some counties in Ireland).
Already large MNCs like IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture etc have more employees in India than say Ireland or any European countries.
IBM alone employs some 130,000 in India !
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14-05-2020, 12:50   #62
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There are at least two opposing aspects to this
1: Employers letting people get used to WFH, means most of the management class gets exposed as useless, and they will fight against this. This also means that finance has more difficultiy blowing up property bubbles, by working with businesses to locate everyone in the middle of cities with scarce accommodation.

2: Employees that WFH are invisible and easy to outsource/replace, can't unionize, and will be losing their jobs within a decade, to workers their employers pay to train up in cheaper countries - this will also create pressure (far too late) for keeping work localized.

Things will be different, but they'll also be the same. The average worker will get a slightly better deal for a very short time, while unwittingly laying the groundwork for reducing their own bargaining power and for their employers to fuck them over and replace them.

It's pretty ironic really, because at the same time as this is happening for white collar better paying jobs - we'll be onshoring the shittier jobs that we'd traditionally bring in migrants for.
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14-05-2020, 12:52   #63
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Originally Posted by hello2020 View Post
This. Remote working means Business will move jobs from Dublin to cheaper places like India (not to some counties in Ireland).
Already large MNCs like IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture etc have more employees in India than say Ireland or any European countries.
IBM alone employs some 130,000 in India !
Yep

If we are lucky they might keep them in the EU and go to Poland etc

Know an accountant who worked for Sony financial services in London earning reasonable money 60k+ and his job went to Gdansk in Poland for less than half his salary

If your not physcially needed, someone else can do it elsewhere, work in IT myself and always make myself available to be on site, without that my job gone
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14-05-2020, 12:54   #64
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Originally Posted by hello2020 View Post
This. Remote working means Business will move jobs from Dublin to cheaper places like India (not to some counties in Ireland).
Already large MNCs like IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture etc have more employees in India than say Ireland or any European countries.
IBM alone employs some 130,000 in India !
Where it is feasible it is already been done in large multinationals - Covid has no impact on this business case for them.

The vast majority of people employed in Ireland are employed with SMEs and I don't see how many of these could even look at or think about outsourcing normal jobs abroad - we actually have call centres here who are outsourcing for MNs !!

What will change is business owners looking at the costs for rent, insurance, rates, light, heat, security and support staff for physical buildings. No need to worry about car parking, traffic. Sick days reduce, productivity goes up.

Our company has reduced it's office space by about 60% in the last two years while adding a couple of extra to the headcount. The office is still there - hot desks, meeting rooms etc .. but only used when needed and we have a couple of junior engineers and finance staff based there. Generally it is younger staff who prefer to be in the office as they live in shared accommodation or with their parents and working from home isn't appealing.

What has become clear is that most business have the bare essentials regarding technology to allow remote working - and what gaps they have are easily filled. The old comms room with air conditioning will become a thing of the past as smaller companies move to AWS / Azure / Sharepoint environments (the cost is reducing by the day to get in to the cloud)
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14-05-2020, 13:06   #65
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Surely the larger companies will take this as an opportunity to sideline expensive employees and manage expensive costs off their accounts
Why have these larger companies been keeping these expensive employees on the books until now if they can just drop them?

Remember, working remotely (or from home) is an employer thing, not an employee thing (in the main)
So why havent these larger companies just advertised for these cheaper, remote employees in the past? Why does COVID-19 change that?

I'm seeing lots of confirmation bias on this thread with nothing to back it up other than more of the same.
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14-05-2020, 13:09   #66
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Why have these larger companies been keeping these expensive employees on the books until now if they can just drop them?

Remember, working remotely (or from home) is an employer thing, not an employee thing (in the main)
So why havent these larger companies just advertised for these cheaper, remote employees in the past? Why does COVID-19 change that?

I'm seeing lots of confirmation bias on this thread with nothing to back it up other than more of the same.
Certain industries will require Irish based employees specifically. Then other tax arrangements will be called into question in Irish based employees are not used. Irish tax benefits would be lost as substance criteria is not filled.
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14-05-2020, 13:11   #67
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Originally Posted by hello2020 View Post
This. Remote working means Business will move jobs from Dublin to cheaper places like India (not to some counties in Ireland).
Already large MNCs like IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture etc have more employees in India than say Ireland or any European countries.
IBM alone employs some 130,000 in India !
There are always more people at the bottom of the food chain than at the top.

If this is so amazing and trouble free, why isnt everyone up to CEO in India?
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14-05-2020, 13:16   #68
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Certain industries will require Irish based employees specifically. Then other tax arrangements will be called into question in Irish based employees are not used. Irish tax benefits would be lost as substance criteria is not filled.
And significant money will be lost (or not saved) by these companies if they move out of Ireland, IDA grants for example, not just corp tax.

It also means that these companies have to establish themselves offshore (lets say India) unless they are moving to a 100% contractor work force, when never works out well longterm.
If you have employees in India then your company pays corporation tax in India and not necessarily just for the Indian entity.
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14-05-2020, 14:30   #69
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Originally Posted by hello2020 View Post
This. Remote working means Business will move jobs from Dublin to cheaper places like India (not to some counties in Ireland).
Already large MNCs like IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture etc have more employees in India than say Ireland or any European countries.
IBM alone employs some 130,000 in India !
IBM is a good example. It is a company once deemed as American as apple pie. In 2017 IBM reached a point where it had more Indian employees than American employees. That trend has continued apace and the new CEO of IBM is from India. I think Covid will accelerate the IT move to India where resource and graduate skills are improving year on year.
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14-05-2020, 15:48   #70
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There are always more people at the bottom of the food chain than at the top.

If this is so amazing and trouble free, why isn't everyone up to CEO in India?
The top level exec. and marketing team remains in US/Europe as that's the market they are catering to.
But VPs and layers below are moving overseas.
Also even at the bottom most layer, IT jobs are paid better than other sectors.
So i will say its a big loss to economy unless some laws are created to protect local workforce.
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14-05-2020, 15:58   #71
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Where it is feasible it is already been done in large multinationals - Covid has no impact on this business case for them.
some new sectors which are at risk of outsourcing are teachers and Doctors (like skin specialist)..
already people are questioning 50K+ student fees when courses are taught online.
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14-05-2020, 16:02   #72
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There's still an assumption that the office is where people will normally be, and some people will choose to WFH occasionally.

I suspect by the time people return to offices, that assumption will be reversed. A lot of people are struggling at home, but a lot more are becoming very accustomed to it.
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14-05-2020, 16:09   #73
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There's still an assumption that the office is where people will normally be, and some people will choose to WFH occasionally.

I suspect by the time people return to offices, that assumption will be reversed. A lot of people are struggling at home, but a lot more are becoming very accustomed to it.
It appears that many employers are too. I can't remember the source, but I saw a report that said many employers have been pleasantly surprised at how well the transition to working from home has gone, and how productivity has not been affected. The mass slacking-off doesn't appear to have happened.


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14-05-2020, 16:47   #74
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In my 10 years of working from home Irish managers have been the biggest blocker to working from home. They have always overcomplicated the perceived negatives and most Irish managers I know have used work from home as an excuse to recover from a hangover and that is what they naturally think employees would do.

US, German and UK managers don't have the same issue I have found in my experience. They tend to have complete trust until they prove otherwise rather than starting at zero and building it up.

The argument of moving workforce to lower cost countries is there and of course with outsourcing a lot has happened already however what is left behind are the well paid management, highly technical or local sales roles that lower cost counties cannot do. Most of the multi-nationals in this country have already done this.
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14-05-2020, 16:50   #75
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A lot of people are struggling at home, but a lot more are becoming very accustomed to it.
What do you base that on?
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