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Leaving Cert calculated grades designed to ensure girls perform better than boys

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    #2
    JasonStatham
    Closed Accounts Posts: 548 ✭✭✭JasonStatham


    Coybig_ wrote: »
    So Leaving Cert results this year are being weighted to ensure girls outperform boys.

    Absolutely disgraceful really. To intentionally weight results so that girls perform better is blatant discrimination.

    If there is an imbalance in results toward gender from years gone by, that the people in charge feel the need to mark girls better to account for it, then that shows a need to reform the way subjects are taught and examined.

    Can you imagine if this was the other way around? Would be world news with the furore that would be drummed up.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/education/girls-to-do-better-than-boys-in-calculated-grade-leaving-cert-exams-as-gender-trends-will-be-built-into-results-39454619.html

    Do girls normally do better than boys in the LC year on year? I thought that was the case.

    But I think they should have given all good grades.


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Take a look at the amount of female only grants and scholarships available for college. You can't help but think that the odds are stacked against young men in pursuing education. Ability, not genitalia should be the deciding factor.


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    #4
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    They are looking at results from previous years and using those to standardise this year's results.

    Sex will be a factor.
    As will location.

    It seems the least unfair way to ensure that some level of impartiality gets applied. Past performance is a guide of future performance.

    I'm not in favour of gender quotas but this weighting of LC results is transparent and seems fair.


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    #5
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,267 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    JasonStatham wrote: »
    Do girls normally do better than boys in the LC year on year? I thought that was the case.

    But I think they should have given all good grades.

    I think they should have sat the fu(king leaving cert in August/September

    Cancelling it was the easy way out at the time but it was clear what assessed grades was going to lead to.


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    #6
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,267 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    KaneToad wrote: »
    They are looking at results from previous years and using those to standardise this year's results.

    Sex will be a factor.
    As will location.

    It seems the least unfair way to ensure that some level of impartiality gets applied. Past performance is a guide of future performance.

    I'm not in favour of gender quotas but this weighting of LC results is transparent and seems fair.

    You haven't been watching goings on in the UK then... their "past performance" algorithm has been a complete disaster. Why would ours be any different?


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    #7
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    KaneToad wrote: »
    They are looking at results from previous years and using those to standardise this year's results.

    Sex will be a factor.
    As will location.

    It seems the least unfair way to ensure that some level of impartiality gets applied. Past performance is a guide of future performance.

    I'm not in favour of gender quotas but this weighting of LC results is transparent and seems fair.

    Seems fair..... If you're a girl.

    Think about it for a moment, it's not girls grades getting bumped up, it's random boys grades getting bumped down.


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    #8
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Discriminatory practices which favour men = bad.

    Discriminatory practices which favour women = good.


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    #9
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    For the Leaving Cert you were a number. This is going to be a minefield. Location , social status, gender should not play a role in grading.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #10
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    lawred2 wrote: »
    You haven't been watching goings on in the UK then... their "past performance" algorithm has been a complete disaster. Why would ours be any different?

    It's not a disaster. It is very accurate at the macro level. However it is unpalatable to some. We only hear from the individuals who were denied the grades they expected. It's become a political decision. The science/logic behind the grades is sound. But the inevitable fall out is too much for the politicians to carry - so they cave in. Style over substance.

    Politicians should be making the hard decisions but really they tend to take the path of least resistance - hence we end up in the same cyclical loops.

    There are not huge fluctuations in exam results on a yearly basis.

    In the absence of the actual sitting of the exams, and a decision to allow teachers to set the predicted grade, there has to be a weighting applied to the results to ensure they tally with previous years.


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    #11
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    KaneToad wrote: »
    They are looking at results from previous years and using those to standardise this year's results.

    Sex will be a factor.
    As will location.

    It seems the least unfair way to ensure that some level of impartiality gets applied. Past performance is a guide of future performance.

    I'm not in favour of gender quotas but this weighting of LC results is transparent and seems fair.

    "Past performance is a guide of future performance."

    So if you have a group of runners and generally every year the men run quicker. In future YES you can predict that the men should run quicker.

    BUT if the race hasn't been run how do you choose which men to bump up on the list?

    That's the problem with calculated grades, they are applying inductive reasoning to something which was always deductive.

    The word 'calculation' is just window dressing.


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    #12
    JasonStatham
    Closed Accounts Posts: 548 ✭✭✭JasonStatham


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I think they should have sat the fu(king leaving cert in August/September

    Cancelling it was the easy way out at the time but it was clear what assessed grades was going to lead to.

    I agree with this. Government / teacher cop out. What a surprise in backward Ireland.


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    #13
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,267 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    KaneToad wrote: »
    It's not a disaster. It is very accurate at the macro level. However it is unpalatable to some. We only hear from the individuals who were denied the grades they expected. It's become a political decision. The science/logic behind the grades is sound. But the inevitable fall out is too much for the politicians to carry - so they cave in. Style over substance.

    Politicians should be making the hard decisions but really they tend to take the path of least resistance - hence we end up in the same cyclical loops.

    There are not huge fluctuations in exam results on a yearly basis.

    In the absence of the actual sitting of the exams, and a decision to allow teachers to set the predicted grade, there has to be a weighting applied to the results to ensure they tally with previous years.

    Stopped reading at the macro level.

    Sure why bother with exams at all then.


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    #14
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Treppen wrote: »
    Seems fair..... If you're a girl.

    Think about it for a moment, it's not girls grades getting bumped up, it's random boys grades getting bumped down.

    Don't know the figures but Dept of Ed obviously do. They can definitively & scientifically state that X% of boys get this result and Y% of girls get this result. They can base it on averages over multiple years.

    They will then weight the predicted grades so that these percentages are maintained. It's not an outrageous move. They will also be weighting on other factors to ensure that these predicted results are in line with previous years.

    It's the best way to deal with a not ideal situation.


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    #15
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    KaneToad wrote: »
    It's not a disaster. It is very accurate at the macro level. However it is unpalatable to some. We only hear from the individuals who were denied the grades they expected. It's become a political decision. The science/logic behind the grades is sound. But the inevitable fall out is too much for the politicians to carry - so they cave in. Style over substance.

    Politicians should be making the hard decisions but really they tend to take the path of least resistance - hence we end up in the same cyclical loops.

    There are not huge fluctuations in exam results on a yearly basis.

    In the absence of the actual sitting of the exams, and a decision to allow teachers to set the predicted grade, there has to be a weighting applied to the results to ensure they tally with previous years.

    And herein lies the flaw. YES they can bump up and down grades all over the country on a MACRO level to make sure the curve looks like it always did.

    Hooray , problem solved!

    No, you get a total mess at the micro level.

    Please tell me, which boys/girls are going to get bumped down or up? How do they choose?

    Then factor in such economic status.

    Then factor in previous grades of that school.

    Shur why did teachers bother with predicting grades at all then. Just submit a class ranking only and let the department assign the grades. It will still tally with previous years won't it?


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    #16
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Don't know the figures but Dept of Ed obviously do. They can definitively & scientifically state that X% of boys get this result and Y% of girls get this result. They can base it on averages over multiple years.

    They will then weight the predicted grades so that these percentages are maintained. It's not an outrageous move. They will also be weighting on other factors to ensure that these predicted results are in line with previous years.

    It's the best way to deal with a not ideal situation.

    Across 100% of schools or just some?


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    #17
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Is this the affect of participation awards? If any sort of bonus is to be applied to a selection of students, it suggests they wouldn't have been able to achieve better themselves. So what else is going to be done to encourage students who would sit the LCA (or whatever it's called now if the name has changed)?
    TheValeyard wrote: »
    For the Leaving Cert you were a number. This is going to be a minefield. Location , social status, gender should not play a role in grading.

    Who is number 1? :P


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    #18
    Jane98
    Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Jane98


    JasonStatham wrote: »
    I agree with this. Government / teacher cop out. What a surprise in backward Ireland.

    Nothing to do with the teachers. The government decided on calculated grades without consulting the teachers and no teacher I know would have voted for calculated grades.


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    #19
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Dravokivich wrote: »

    Who is number 1? :P

    3deb18c2a92eadb0f7b04272390693e6.jpg

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #20
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Stopped reading at the macro level.

    Sure why bother with exams at all then.

    Why did you stop reading? Did you not understand ?

    We usually "bother" with exams. This year it wasn't done - due to the pandemic. The predicted grades and subsequent weightings is an imperfect solution to the problem.

    In the absence of the exams actually being sat - what would your solution be?


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    #21
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    JasonStatham wrote: »
    I agree with this. Government / teacher cop out. What a surprise in backward Ireland.

    No way was it a teacher cop out, get your history straight. This was decided after Dr Kelly and Joe Duffy bleating on about uncertainty and stressed students etc.. She was calling for all students to apply for UK Colleges so that teachers here would be forced to provide a predicted grade FFS. The following Monday the department rolled back on the 'by hook or by crook' promise.

    Nothing to do with teachers.

    They are fundamentally opposed to assessing their own students for state certification and not happy with predicted grades for obvious reasons which are becoming apparent to the general public now.

    Exam should have been run. You won't find many teachers thinking otherwise.


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    #22
    Scuid Mhór
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    For the Leaving Cert you were a number. This is going to be a minefield. Location , social status, gender should not play a role in grading.

    ... except that this is how the LC has always worked? Why else is it always the south side private schools that get the highest points on average? People are upset by a system of predicted grades trying to keep the status quo, it’s ridiculous.


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    #23
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Treppen wrote: »
    Just submit a class ranking only and let the department assign the grades. It will still tally with previous years won't it?

    It will. This would also be an imperfect solution.


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    #24
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Scuid Mhór wrote: »
    ... except that this is how the LC has always worked? Why else is it always the south side private schools that get the highest points on average? People are upset by a system of predicted grades trying to keep the status quo, it’s ridiculous.

    The LC exam is the least unfair method of assessment. But that's not saying much. There are huge educational inequalities - mainly socio-economic.


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    #25
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Scuid Mhór wrote: »
    ... except that this is how the LC has always worked? Why else is it always the south side private schools that get the highest points on average? People are upset by a system of predicted grades trying to keep the status quo, it’s ridiculous.

    It's not just the private schools those rich kids are going through. A lot of them will get extra tuition outside of school too. But, that's not really the where the problem lays. You can have poorer students excel and get exceptionally good grades, insert this bias, and it can reduce their grades, to maintain overall averages.


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    #26
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 11,932 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Scuid Mhór wrote: »
    ... except that this is how the LC has always worked? Why else is it always the south side private schools that get the highest points on average? People are upset by a system of predicted grades trying to keep the status quo, it’s ridiculous.

    It hasn't though. The corrector has no idea who's paper he's marking, or from what school they are. It's just an exam number, and you can probably give a good guess due to writing style for girls and boys. Other than that, it's completely blind.

    Now, you'll get cases where teachers submit marks for the students, and grading method means those are going up and down based on gender, school they came from etc to fit the historical trends. So males will get downward graded, females will get upwards graded, poor schools will get downward graded and rich school gets upward graded.

    Works at an overall level, but fecks it up at an individual level


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    #27
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,545 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I imagine that the Dept of Education can see that exam results are actually fairly predictable in terms of schools and socio-ecomnomic areas - the same schools getting much the results year after year - and are factoring this into their grading, so that their overall results will match those of previously years as much as possible.

    It's the outliers who will either suffer (an unusually good student in a school with traditionally poor results) or benefit (an unusually poor student in a school with traditionally good results).


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    #28
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    3deb18c2a92eadb0f7b04272390693e6.jpg

    Hehe, I was going along the lines of, I'm not a number... :D

    Number-Six-the-prisoner-26758200-1024-768.jpg


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    #29
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    KaneToad wrote: »
    It will. This would also be an imperfect solution.

    I know, I'm just showing how pointless the exercise of teachers providing grades and then the department saying "no you are wrong, we know better about each individual student than you do".

    A better solution would be to let the teacher grades fall where they may and let CAO lottery to sort the rest out.

    Applying gender and socio economic quotas is a political decision.

    Are they going to adjust for mixed and single sex schools, females and males perform differently there too.

    How about ethnic minorities?

    Gaelscoileanna?

    Students with a disability?

    Students of a particular faith?

    No problem making that tally with previous years either!


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    #30
    MarkR
    Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    This doesn't seem fair or workable. Few examples, to be the devils advocate.
    1. Boy who was downgraded not happy with his result, gets rechecked. Is there some notation on the exam to say he was downgraded? Will he be graded only on his work now?
    2. Should all boys ask for a recheck if they didn't do as well as expected?
    3. If a student currently presents as male, but could be trans, do they have reason to appeal?

    I think that more women and girls should go into stem courses. I just don't think we should cook the books to do it.


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    #31
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    The best thing the LC has going for it is it's anonymity.
    We should probably remember that (as should the media) the next time they start up about League tables, and other ways to assess students. It is far from perfect, but anonymity should be preserved in it.


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