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The sun is dead!! Mini iceage???

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  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/46387
    recent studies have suggested that solar-induced changes to the jet stream in the northern hemisphere may cause colder winters in Europe but this would be offset by milder winters in Greenland.


  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/new-e.htm
    New Little Ice Age
    Instead of Global Warming?

    by Dr. Theodor Landscheidt

    Schroeter Institute for Research in Cycles of Solar Activity
    Klammerfelsweg 5, 93449 Waldmuenchen, Germany
    Analysis of the sun's varying activity in the last two millennia indicates that contrary to the IPCC's speculation about man-made global warming as high as 5.8° C within the next hundred years, a long period of cool climate with its coldest phase around 2030 is to be expected. It is shown that minima in the 80 to 90-year Gleissberg cycle of solar activity, coinciding with periods of cool climate on Earth, are consistently linked to an 83-year cycle in the change of the rotary force driving the sun's oscillatory motion about the centre of mass of the solar system. As the future course of this cycle and its amplitudes can be computed, it can be seen that the Gleissberg minimum around 2030 and another one around 2200 will be of the Maunder minimum type accompanied by severe cooling on Earth. This forecast should prove skillful as other long-range forecasts of climate phenomena, based on cycles in the sun's orbital motion, have turned out correct as for instance the prediction of the last three El Niños years before the respective event.

    interesting that he says this about solar flares like the recent huge one
    Energetic solar eruptions do not accumulate around the sunspot maximum. In most cycles they shun the maximum phase and can even occur close to a sunspot minimum

    Predictions based on cycles in the sun's motion turned out to be correct. My long-range forecasts of precisely defined classes of energetic X-ray flares and strong geomagnetic storms, covering the period 1979 – 1985, reached an overall hit rate of 90 percent though such events show a very irregular distribution. These forecasts were checked by the Space Environment Center, Boulder, and the astronomers Gleissberg, Wöhl and Pfleiderer (Landscheidt, 1986; Landscheidt and Wöhl, 1986). Accumulations of strong geomagnetic storms around 1982 and 1990 were also correctly forecast several years before the events. I predicted, too, in 1984 (Landscheidt, 1986, 1987) that the sun's activity would diminish past 1990. Just this happened. Though a panel of experts (Joselyn, 1997) had predicted in 1996 and even two years later that sunspot cycle 23 would have a large amplitude similar to the preceding cycles (highest smoothed monthly sunspot number R = 160), the observed activity was much weaker (R = 120).

    My climate forecasts based on solar motion cycles stood the test as well. I correctly forecast the end of the Sahelian drought three years before the event, the last four extrema in global temperature anomalies, the maximum in the Palmer drought index for U.S.A. around 1999, extreme river Po discharges around the beginning of 2001, and the last three El Niños as well as the course of the last La Niña (Landscheidt, 1983-2002). This forecast skill, solely based on cycles of solar activity, is irreconcilable with the IPCC's allegation that it is unlikely that natural forcing can explain the warming in the latter half of the 20th century.
    An even more difficult question is whether future Gleissberg minima will be of the regular type with moderately reduced solar activity as around 1895, of the type of very weak activity like the Dalton minimum around 1810, or of the grand minimum type with nearly extinguished activity like the nadir of the Maunder minimum around 1670, the Spoerer minimum around 1490, the Wolf minimum around 1320, and the Norman minimum around 1010 (Stuiver and Quay, 1981). Fig. 11 offers a heuristic solution. It shows the time series of unsmoothed dT/dt-extrema for the interval 1000 – 2250. A consistent regularity attracts attention. Each time when the amplitude of a negative extremum goes below a low threshold, indicated by a dashed horizontal line, this coincides with a period of exceptionally weak solar activity.

    Fig11L.jpg
    Without exception, the outstanding negative extrema coincide with periods of exceptionally weak solar activity and vice versa. So there are good reasons to expect that the coming Gleissberg minimum around 2030 will be a deep one. As there are three consecutive extrema below the quantitative threshold, there is a high probability that the event will be of the Maunder minimum type.
    I do not expect that the effects of man-made greenhouse gases will eliminate the sun's predominance. If these effects were as strong as the IPCC pretends, my diverse climate forecasts, exclusively based on solar activity, would not have had any chance to turn out correct. This all the more so as they cover recent years and decades the warming of which, according to IPCC statements, cannot be explained by natural forcing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Fiskar


    Interesting article on colder winters ahead by Professor Lockwood

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2010757/Shivering-Britain-Little-Ice-Age-way.html

    quote: His findings, published by the Institute of Physics, (IoP) showed that in the next 50 years there is a one in 10 chance of the sun returning to conditions seen between 1645 and 1715 when the River Thames in London regularly froze over, as did the Baltic Sea.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2010757/Shivering-Britain-Little-Ice-Age-way.html#ixzz1R368APpq


  • Posts: 0 Elijah Cold Stack


    Fiskar wrote: »
    Interesting article on colder winters ahead by Professor Lockwood

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2010757/Shivering-Britain-Little-Ice-Age-way.html

    quote: His findings, published by the Institute of Physics, (IoP) showed that in the next 50 years there is a one in 10 chance of the sun returning to conditions seen between 1645 and 1715 when the River Thames in London regularly froze over, as did the Baltic Sea.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2010757/Shivering-Britain-Little-Ice-Age-way.html#ixzz1R368APpq

    This begs the critical question!
    If the sun does go into a Maunder minimum mode, given all the "AGW" that has supposed to have happened over the past century, will we still get a mini ice age?
    If the CO2 induced warming affect is as strong as some scientists claim then the reduced solar activity won't have any affect.

    I think it will just slow down the weather systems, meaning that the cool air will stay more polar and the warm air will stay more in the tropics with less interaction between them.
    Based on the recent heatwaves and extreme cold events that have been happening.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    The link posted by Kallie Dry Widow deals with this, if CO2 was the driving force then the Earth's temperature should be rising at a steady rate, however the data shows that the Earth's temperature fluctuates in line with the activity of sun, which puts major question marks over the IPCC and the real impact of rising CO2 in the atmosphere.

    2030 expected to be the peak of the cool period, it mentioned an 83 year cycle which is interesting given 83 years previous to 2030 was 1947.

    Maunder mode is increasingly talked about, this goes back to my childhood in the 1980's when the talk was about the coming ice age, then global warming fanatics took over, now it seems the scientists who stood on the side of cooling will be proved right and it is the sun not humans which is the driving force.


  • Posts: 0 Elijah Cold Stack


    Min wrote: »
    The link posted by Kallie Dry Widow deals with this, if CO2 was the driving force then the Earth's temperature should be rising at a steady rate, however the data shows that the Earth's temperature fluctuates in line with the activity of sun, which puts major question marks over the IPCC and the real impact of rising CO2 in the atmosphere.
    Yes I agree, but the point being that AGW supporters are still adamant that the affects of CO2 override the affects caused by a change in the sun.
    They seem to believe that the greenhouse gases will continue to warm the Earth, despite the reduced solar energy reaching the surface because of increased clouds caused by cosmic rays.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Not CO2 but Water Vapour being the main Greenhouse gas.

    Im just waiting to see does this low solar activity in fact cause enough or any change in world or regional climate for whatever period of time.
    And try to see if more than one parameter is at play of which i suspect there is.
    There is so much to learn and at the moment alot is just guess work,trial and error,thats science for ya.:)

    Really at the end of the day whether it be global warming or cooling in the headlines,the sky will always be falling.

    Im not getting into a debate bout this but i thought this link very interesting.

    http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html#anchor247575


    PARAGRAPHS FROM LINK

    Scientists are increasingly recognizing the importance of water vapor in the climate system. Some, like Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, suggest that it is such an important factor that much of the global warming in the last 10,000 years may be due to the increasing water vapor concentrations in Earth's atmosphere.

    His research indicates that air reaching glaciers during the last Ice Age had less than half the water vapor content of today. Such increases in atmospheric moisture during our current interglacial period would have played a far greater role in global warming than carbon dioxide or other minor gases



    Known causes of global climate change, like cyclical eccentricities in Earth's rotation and orbit, as well as variations in the sun's energy output, are the primary causes of climate cycles measured over the last half million years. However, secondary greenhouse effects stemming from changes in the ability of a warming atmosphere to support greater concentrations of gases like water vapor and carbon dioxide also appear to play a significant role. As demonstrated in the data above, of all Earth's greenhouse gases, water vapor is by far the dominant player.

    The ability of humans to influence greenhouse water vapor is negligible. As such, individuals and groups whose agenda it is to require that human beings are the cause of global warming must discount or ignore the effects of water vapor to preserve their arguments, citing numbers similar to those in Table 4b . If political correctness and staying out of trouble aren't high priorities for you, go ahead and ask them how water vapor was handled in their models or statistics. Chances are, it wasn't!


  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    just so ye know the guy whose work i posted is dead & long before his prediction on this potential minimum, so he certainly isnt jumping on any bandwagon!!! Some of his work predates the 1990s and some from the 1970s which i think lends him weight that he was so consistent despite the turn of many toward warming

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Landscheidt


  • Posts: 0 Elijah Cold Stack


    Fiskar wrote: »
    Interesting article on colder winters ahead by Professor Lockwood

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2010757/Shivering-Britain-Little-Ice-Age-way.html

    quote: His findings, published by the Institute of Physics, (IoP) showed that in the next 50 years there is a one in 10 chance of the sun returning to conditions seen between 1645 and 1715 when the River Thames in London regularly froze over, as did the Baltic Sea.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2010757/Shivering-Britain-Little-Ice-Age-way.html#ixzz1R368APpq


    Full article now available online http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/6/3/034004/fulltext#erl380665s4


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  • Posts: 0 Elijah Cold Stack


    morner.jpg
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/07/05/nils-axel-morner-arctic-environment-by-the-middle-of-this-century/#more-42810
    Nils-Axel Mörner, best known for his research on sea level and sea level records, reported in the April 2011 issue of the journal Energy & Environment that:
    At around 2040-2050 we will be in a new major Solar Minimum. It is to be expected that we will then have a new “Little Ice Age” over the Arctic and NW Europe. The past Solar Minima were linked to a general speeding-up of the Earth’s rate of rotation. This affected the surface currents and southward penetration of Arctic water in the North Atlantic causing “Little Ice Ages” over northwestern Europe and the Arctic.
    At the time I thought this was a bit of a reach, and still do, but it fits in well Continue reading →
    Looks a bit extreme but it fits in with my way of thinking, cooler at the poles and warmer near the tropics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭nilhg


    New research says that reduced solar activity could lead to one winter in seven could be "harsh"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14029995


  • Posts: 0 Elijah Cold Stack


    - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/35145bee-9d38-11e0-997d-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz1Rfo4qoXu


    Third, scientists at the Met Office and elsewhere are beginning to understand the effect of the 11-year solar cycle on climate. When sunspots and other solar activity are at a minimum, the effect is similar to that of El Niño: more easterly winds and cold winter weather for Britain.
    “We now believe that [the solar cycle] accounts for 50 per cent of the variability from year to year,” says Scaife. With solar physicists predicting a long-term reduction in the intensity of the solar cycle – and possibly its complete disappearance for a few decades, as happened during the so-called Maunder Minimum from 1645 to 1715 – this could be an ominous signal for icy winters ahead, despite global warming.

    UK met office are now taking variations in solar activity more seriously.


  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/08/east.africa.drought/
    East Africa is in the midst of its worst drought in more than 60 years, with as many as 10 million people at risk.

    The monsoon is completely driven the sun meaning that in times of lower solar activity the Inter tropical convergence zone will not spread monsoonal rainfall as wide. This is the kind of evidence I`ve been looking for all along in this thread to show that this is not just affecting the North West of Europe and show that it is global - giving more weight to the theory that the Negative NAO is linked to a decrease in Solar activity


  • Posts: 0 Elijah Cold Stack


    There is also some anecdotal evidense that parts of Australia are now experiencing colder than average winter weather. (no links just hearsay)

    I think it's down to weakening solar energy reducing the strenght of the global wind patterns, i.e. the cold air stays near the poles and the warm air stays near the equater & monsoon clouds have a narrower band (as Kallie Dry Widow says).

    Our mild weather is mainly the result of an active solar cycle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭BEASTERLY


    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/08/east.africa.drought/



    The monsoon is completely driven the sun meaning that in times of lower solar activity the Inter tropical convergence zone will not spread monsoonal rainfall as wide. This is the kind of evidence I`ve been looking for all along in this thread to show that this is not just affecting the North West of Europe and show that it is global - giving more weight to the theory that the Negative NAO is linked to a decrease in Solar activity

    I have to say I disagree. The connection between sunspots is far more more complicated than it's output. It's the slowdown of the solar wind resulting from a lack of sunspots which causes changes in the atmosphere.

    The monsoon is driven by solar heat radiation, something which actually increases ever so slightly during periods of low solar activity which would aid monsoon rains.

    During low solar activity the sun is not cooler or less powerful. Is it merely a drop in magnetic output which has an effect on our atmosphere. This is why I think it has little effect on global temperature, it merely changes climatic patterns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,625 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    while recent low solar activity may have a more widespread effect on the earth's climate than previously thought, it doesn't seem to have stopped the global temperature rising so far, as the global temperature in 2010, and early part of 2011, was on the rise.
    so those advancing low magnetic activity from the sun as possible evidence that global warming is on decline seem to be mistaken


  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    BEASTERLY wrote: »
    I have to say I disagree. The connection between sunspots is far more more complicated than it's output. It's the slowdown of the solar wind resulting from a lack of sunspots which causes changes in the atmosphere.

    The monsoon is driven by solar heat radiation, something which actually increases ever so slightly during periods of low solar activity which would aid monsoon rains.

    During low solar activity the sun is not cooler or less powerful. Is it merely a drop in magnetic output which has an effect on our atmosphere. This is why I think it has little effect on global temperature, it merely changes climatic patterns.

    interesting, can you link me to some reading on this?

    Solar irradiance is linked to magnetic flux if your saying heat output increases during a drop in magnetic ouput then how come NASA says its decreasing?
    There are two important findings from SORCE. First, the high accurate TIM (Total Irradiance Monitor) on SORCE reveals a much lower TSI of ~1361 W/m2 as compared to ~1366 W/m2
    http://atmospheres.gsfc.nasa.gov/climate/index.php?section=136

    Is there anywhere that keeps track of the seasonal extents of the monsoon/ICTZ the same way temperatures are kept track of?


  • Registered Users Posts: 327 ✭✭dermiek


    So basically sometime in the next 50 years or so, it will get so cold that our cahunas will freeze and fall off.

    Ooooh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    CERN in Geneva—will soon announce that more cosmic rays do, indeed, create more clouds in earth’s atmosphere. More cosmic rays mean a cooler planet





    - Dennis Avery Tuesday, July 19, 2011


    The world’s most sophisticated particle study laboratory—CERN in Geneva—will soon announce that more cosmic rays do, indeed, create more clouds in earth’s atmosphere. More cosmic rays mean a cooler planet. Thus, the solar source of the earth’s long, moderate 1,500-year climate cycle will finally be explained.



    Cosmic rays and solar winds are interesting phenomena—but they are vastly more relevant when an undocumented theory is threatening to quadruple society’s energy costs. The IPCC wants $10 gasoline, and “soaring” electric bills to reduce earth’s temperatures by an amount too tiny to measure with most thermometers.

    In 2007, when Fred Singer and I published Unstoppable Global Warming Every 1,500 Years, we weren’t terribly concerned with cosmic rays. We knew the natural, moderate warming/cooling cycle was real, from the evidence in ice cores, seabed sediments, fossil pollen and cave stalagmites. The cycle was the big factor that belied the man-made warming hysteria of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

    When Willi Dansgaard and Hans Oeschger discovered the 1,500 year cycle in the Greenland ice cores in 1984, they knew immediately that it was solar-powered. They’d seen exactly the same cycle in the carbon 14 molecules in trees, and in the beryllium 10 molecules in ice cores. Both sets of molecules are formed when cosmic rays strike our atmosphere. The cycle had produced a whole series of dramatic, abrupt Medieval-Warming-to-Little-Ice-Age climate changes.

    The IPCC, for its part, announced that the sun could not be the forcing factor in any major climate change because the solar irradiation was too small. IPCC did not, however, add up the other solar variations that could amplify the solar irradiation. Nor had the IPCC programmed its famed computer models with the knowledge of the Medieval Warming (950–1200 AD), the Roman Warming (200 BC–600 AD), or the big Holocene Warmings centered on 6,000 and 8,000 BC.

    The IPCC apparently wanted to dismiss the sun as a climate factor—to leave room for a CO2 factor that has only a 22 percent correlation with our past thermometer record. Correlation is not causation—but the lack of CO2 correlation is deadly to the IPCC theory.

    Henrik Svensmark of the Danish Space Research Institute added the next chapter in the climate cycle story, just before our book was published. His cloud chamber experiment showed natural cosmic rays quickly created vast numbers of tiny “cloud seeds” when our mix of atmospheric gases was bombarded with ultra-violet light. Since clouds often cover 30 percent of the earth’s surface, a moderate change in cloud cover clearly could explain the warming/cooling cycle.

    Svensmark noted the gigantic “solar wind” that expands when the sun is active—and thus blocks many of the cosmic rays that would otherwise hit the earth’s atmosphere. When the sun weakens, the solar wind shrinks. Recently, the U.S. Solar Observatory reported a very long period of “quiet sun” and predicted 30 years of cooling.

    Last year, Denmark’s University of Aarhus did another experiment with a particle accelerator that fully confirmed the Svensmark hypothesis: cosmic rays help to make more clouds and thus could cool the earth.

    The CERN experiment is supposed to be the big test of the Svensmark theory. It’s a tipoff, then, that CERN’s boss, Rolf-Dieter Heuer, has just told the German magazine Die Welt that he has forbidden his researchers to “interpret” the forthcoming test results. In other words, the CERN report will be a stark “just the facts” listing of the findings. Those findings must support Svensmark, or Heuer would never have issued such a stifling order on a major experiment.

    Stay tuned.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    This chart compares the development of Solar Cycle 24 with the last de Vries cycle event – the Dalton Minimum. The Solar Cycle 24 ramp up in terms of sunspot number is tracking much the same as that of Solar Cycle 5 but about a year ahead of it. All solar activity indications are for a Dalton Minimum repeat. There has been no development that precludes that outcome.

    David Archibald.


    archibald_july2011_solar_fig3.png?w=640&h=402


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon


    redsunset wrote: »
    This chart compares the development of Solar Cycle 24 with the last de Vries cycle event – the Dalton Minimum. The Solar Cycle 24 ramp up in terms of sunspot number is tracking much the same as that of Solar Cycle 5 but about a year ahead of it. All solar activity indications are for a Dalton Minimum repeat. There has been no development that precludes that outcome.

    David Archibald.


    archibald_july2011_solar_fig3.png?w=640&h=402

    Thanks for the info Redsunset - in layman terms, does this point to the coming winter in Ireland as another arctic one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭morticia2


    redsunset wrote: »

    The IPCC wants $10 gasoline, and “soaring” electric bills to reduce earth’s temperatures by an amount too tiny to measure with most thermometers.
    Stay tuned.

    I'm afraid we're going to get the expensive gasoline even if global warming theory vapourises overnight (or over a number of chilly winters). The problem is that we've used most of the cheap and easily accessible light sweet crudes, leaving oil sands, shales and deep water sources that are much harder (and more expensive) to get at . The IEA belatedly announced peak oil in 2006. Meanwhile, thanks to globalisation and a soaring population, the costs of all commodities is likely to soar.

    I have long been convinced (regardless of its accuracy or otherwise) that governments have been using global warming as an alternative way of trying to ration fossil fuels...."they're running out" is too scary and might frighten "the markets"

    After all, they're not making any more of them.....

    Anyway, part of the reason we in Ireland are paying more for fuel would be the banking system, and not any mad adherence to climate orthodoxy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭up for anything


    With rising fuel prices and a 22% increase in gas bills coming up, I wonder how long it'll be before the people of the West of Ireland start tapping that Shell pipeline a bit like they do to the oil pipelines in Nigeria. If I lived a bit closer I'd be tempted to try.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Kippure


    Nice little chart .

    globaltemperaturessince.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭odyboody


    Got to love that 2nd guys name:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    The sun doesn't look too dead at the moment, it appears to be getting quite active. Sunspot 1263 is described as a "whopper'
    www.spaceweather.com


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    The sun doesn't look too dead at the moment, it appears to be getting quite active. Sunspot 1263 is described as a "whopper'
    www.spaceweather.com
    nonsense. 1 sun spot, how sensationalist.........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭thetonynator


    The sun doesn't look too dead at the moment, it appears to be getting quite active. Sunspot 1263 is described as a "whopper'
    www.spaceweather.com

    Yep, but this is supposed to be approaching the peak of the solar cycle, and activity is way below where it would normally be.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭4gun


    as much as I love snow and frosty winters myself..unfortunately we don't see enough of them where I'm from,
    I can't help but wonder why so many here are looking forward to them ...given Our countrys inability to cope and the major havoc they cause

    not being a spoil sport , I'm just curious


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