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RTB seeing the light!

24

Comments

  • #32
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    disposableFish wrote: »
    I disagree, I would say its general inadequacy favours anyone who's willing to flout the law, be they landlord or tenant.

    It's about risk. If either sides flout the law how severe are the penalties and repercussions. Are they equally severe. What are the risks.


  • #33
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 13,976 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    disposableFish wrote: »
    I don't really get that point. Why does the landlord have a right to make a return.
    It's an investment, they took a risk/miscalculated the risk and it didn't pay off.

    You are entitled to be remunerated if you provide a service.

    You are quite right in the sense that a landlord has no right to make a profit on either the service nor the capital investment, but if there is a tenancy agreement, the landlord most assuredly has a right to be paid for the property.

    It is obvious that LLs are calculating risk far more now than before, either by leaving the market in large numbers, or by being far more selective on who they rent to and by asking for much bigger deposits. This is detrimental to the rental market and means many good tenants cannot get accommodation.


  • #34
    disposableFish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭disposableFish


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You are entitled to be remunerated if you provide a service.

    You are quite right in the sense that a landlord has no right to make a profit on either the service nor the capital investment, but if there is a tenancy agreement, the landlord most assuredly has a right to be paid for the property.

    It is obvious that LLs are calculating risk far more now than before, either by leaving the market in large numbers, or by being far more selective on who they rent to and by asking for much bigger deposits. This is detrimental to the rental market and means many good tenants cannot get accommodation.

    I was talking purely about the capital gain on property value, which was what the poster I was quoting was talking about in the quote (unless I'm wrong). That any investment is a risk you take, but Old Diesel seemed to be suggesting that LLs be compensated for not making the kind of profit they had hoped to make on what turned out to be a bad investment.

    On what you were saying, certainly everyone has the right to be paid the agreed amount for a service provided.

    The points I've been making generally are that everyone would benefit from tighter rules and a much quicker legal system - from a LLs point of view risk would be greatly reduced if you could be sure of getting non-paying tenants out within a short amount of time.


  • #35
    sk8board
    Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭sk8board


    Hi, just to say firstly I’m a full time residential LL.

    The incidental LLs are in the perfect position to sell at the moment:
    1. By their nature they never wanted to be LLs in the first place
    2. Rent controls means their yield is managed by an external entity
    3. As an investment, having 100% of your income coming from one tenancy carries incredible risk. Any issues and it’s 0 income with all the same costs.
    4. Property prices appear to be peaking, so it’s a good time to sell


    Finally, just to clarify this point - “the Irish Property Owners Association noted that two-thirds of all tenancies are let by property owners with less than three properties.”

    This is incorrect - two thirds of all LLs only have ONE rental property (120k from 169k according to the RTB).
    Only 8% of LLs have 3 or more properties.

    Personally I consider myself one of the ‘good’ LLs, but ideally I’d like to be able to establish a company to run it as a business, professionalise the market and be beholden to the rules


  • #36
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    riemann wrote: »
    I love how this is presented as a negative, when in reality landlords being forced to sell up allows families to buy houses to live in, put down roots and form a community.

    As opposed to seeing a house as an asset to be milked for all its worth, it is back to being used as per its proper use.

    The supply of residential units is close to catching up with demand, could be a blessing in disguise being "forced to sell".

    Poor landlords, the real victims of the housing crisis.

    This post just shows your lack of understanding of how a proper property market should work. There should always be a mix of property owners in the market


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  • #37
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,519 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    A short report about this now on morning Ireland.

    Mentions there's 50,000 less landlords since 2012, and the difficulties of evicting bad tenants and an interview with a LL who's tenant filled the house with trash.

    Threshold boss on to say it's a landlords market.


  • #38
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 13,976 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    A short report about this now on morning Ireland.

    Mentions there's 50,000 less landlords since 2012, and the difficulties of evicting bad tenants and an interview with a LL who's tenant filled the house with trash.

    Threshold boss on to say it's a landlords market.

    It’s a “Landlrds market”, rent is at an all time high, yet there are 50k less LLs than 7 years ago, I doubt you need a masters in Economics to see that situation is not normal. Did the threshold guy acknowledge the difficulties associated with evicting errant tenants?


  • #39
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    A short report about this now on morning Ireland.

    Mentions there's 50,000 less landlords since 2012, and the difficulties of evicting bad tenants and an interview with a LL who's tenant filled the house with trash.

    Threshold boss on to say it's a landlords market.

    is this on today or when was it on? I would like to listen to it.


  • #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Berlin is going to have a 5yr rent freeze. Expect similar here shortly.


  • #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Dav010 wrote: »
    It’s a “Landlrds market”, rent is at an all time high, yet there are 50k less LLs than 7 years ago, I doubt you need a masters in Economics to see that situation is not normal. Did the threshold guy acknowledge the difficulties associated with evicting errant tenants?

    Those figures are not useful on their own. They should be also be looking at the number of new landlords and more importantly the amount of rental stock the number of units. Finally the number of people renting and looking for places.

    Because we might have a net loss 30k of units but 300k more people looking for them.

    Also are the units leaving the market much lower rent than the new ones entering the market.


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  • #42
    Colking
    Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭Colking


    The Student wrote: »
    is this on today or when was it on? I would like to listen to it.

    https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21642017


  • #43
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Topgear on Dave wrote:
    Threshold boss on to say it's a landlords market.


    Its slowly becoming a no ones market


  • #44
    Colking
    Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭Colking


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    A short report about this now on morning Ireland.

    Mentions there's 50,000 less landlords since 2012, and the difficulties of evicting bad tenants and an interview with a LL who's tenant filled the house with trash.

    Threshold boss on to say it's a landlords market.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    It’s a “Landlrds market”, rent is at an all time high, yet there are 50k less LLs than 7 years ago, I doubt you need a masters in Economics to see that situation is not normal. Did the threshold guy acknowledge the difficulties associated with evicting errant tenants?
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Its slowly becoming a no ones market

    All the power and knowledge reside with the Landlords according to the Threshold CEO.

    The Landlord in question says he's most likely getting out.

    He doesn't need the hassle at his age and he doesn't need to be constantly vilified for not providing a solution to a problem created by successive governments.


  • #45
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Colking wrote:
    He doesn't need the hassle at his age and he does need to be constantly vilified for not providing a solution to a problem created by successive governments.


    Its an absolute mess, I wouldn't blame landlords for running, it certainly doesn't sound like money easily earned


  • #46
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,519 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Colking wrote: »
    He doesn't need the hassle at his age and he doesn't need to be constantly vilified for not providing a solution to a problem created by successive governments.

    Even the RTE report called the landlord "Tom" but it was not his real name.


  • #47
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,519 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Did the threshold guy acknowledge the difficulties associated with evicting errant tenants?

    Your having a laugh? right? :D


  • #48
    Colking
    Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭Colking


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Its an absolute mess, I wouldn't blame landlords for running, it certainly doesn't sound like money easily earned
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Its slowly becoming a no ones market

    The system is a mess. In fairness the vast majority of tenants are 100%. The majority of Landlords are 100%.

    There is a fear factor now though. A fear factor largely generated by successive failed governmental policies and interference.

    As a Tenant there is a fear of :
      Is my home secure ? Will the Landlord make up some BS about a family member needing the place or that it needs renovating?
      Is my home secure? Will the Landlord sell up because the property has reached a value to sell or because they are sick of being a Landlord?
      If I have to move will I be able to find a new place ? Will I get my deposit back?
      If I have a problem with the house/apartment I just moved into do I tell the Landlord ? Do I rock the boat or put up with an essential item broken or not being addressed?
      Will the Landlord of the place I've just moved into try and be a "£$ and try something illegal and force my hand ? Will they hire an estate agent to manage the property for them and will they try some nonsense forcing my hand ?
      It's all well and good telling me to report them to the RTB but I will be homeless and it's hard to find a place to rent now.
      Do I have to go to the RTB for something ? Have I missed some new piece of legislation ? The RTB are totally anti-tenant aren't they ? Will I get hammered for forgetting something or making an honest mistake ?

    As a Landlord there is a fear of :
      Is my house/apartment secure ? Will the tenant thrash it or stop paying ?
      Is my house/apartment secure ? Will it take me 2 years or more to get rid of the bad tenant ? How much money will I be down ? 20k ? 30k? 40k? I know I will never see a penny of that money again. Will the banks suspend the mortgage while I try and recover? Will it put my own families well being (mentally and financially) at risk ?
      Is my house/apartment secure ? Will the government come out with another useless piece of legislation that makes the market tougher for both Landlords and tenants just so they can pretend to the press and the public that they are actually addressing the problems rather than avoiding their responsibilities yet again ?
      Do I have to go to the RTB for something ? Have I missed some new piece of legislation ? The RTB are totally anti-landlord aren't they ? Will I get hammered for forgetting something or making an honest mistake ?
      Will the arse fall out of the market again ? Remember back in 2008 - 2012 when rental income was a joke and didn't come any where near paying for the mortgage ? The time when no-one cared that a vast number of people were severely under the hammer trying to keep mortgages paid on rental properties they would have happily got shot of ?
      When will the press and the public cop on ? Landlords aren't driving around in top hats on carriages, kicking serfs in the face as they pass by guzzling champagne and firing six shooters into the air ?
      When will the press and the public cop on ? Landlords, the majority of them can be spoken to and reasoned with if you are a good tenant of good standing. If you have a difficulty we can come to an arrangement most likely.
      When will the press and the public cop on ? REIT's pay no tax in comparative terms and are held up as a beacon of light ?


  • #49
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Colking wrote: »
    There is a fear factor now though. A fear factor largely generated by successive failed governmental policies and interference...

    ...and you d have to ask, whos all this actually working for?


  • #50
    Colking
    Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭Colking


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...and you d have to ask, whos all this actually working for?

    Successive Ministers for housing would have us believe that it's working for everyone.

    They would have us believe that if it's not working for everyone then it's the evil Landlords who are at fault.

    (Not the vulture fund REIT Landlords though) but the evil one property owning Landlords that exist silently among us, breathing the same air as us, sending their children to the same schools as us. Shopping and supporting local businesses the same as us.

    They would have us believe that contrary to what anyone might think, they as Housing Ministers are indeed capable of polishing a turd.


  • #51
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...and you d have to ask, whos all this actually working for?

    They don't care who it is or isn't working for. That's the basic core of this issue.


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  • #52
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    beauf wrote: »
    They don't care who it is or isn't working for. That's the basic core of this issue.

    i guess it depends who you call 'they'? i do beleive our politicans do actually care about this problem, but are largely powerless to change it, and i suspect it doesnt matter whos in governement


  • #53
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    If you look at housing trends in Europe since ww2 almost all are driven by govt policies and any change in them.


  • #54
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    beauf wrote: »
    If you look at housing trends in Europe since ww2 almost all are driven by govt policies and any change in them.

    housing is extremely complex, no matter what some leaders say, the involvement of our political institutions and systems is only one element of it, but a critical one, as you pointed out


  • #55
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    That's what studies into housing show.


  • #56
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    beauf wrote: »
    That's what studies into housing show.

    they do indeed, governments have both positive and negative effects on housing markets, but not exclusively


  • #57
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i guess it depends who you call 'they'? i do beleive our politicans do actually care about this problem, but are largely powerless to change it, and i suspect it doesnt matter whos in governement

    I would argue that the politicians are not powerless to change it.

    There is acceptance that we need more accommodation and that some of that we already have is not being fully utilized (houses left vacant because in some instances the anti landlord stance, the high rates of tax and the difficulty in evicting a non paying tenant).

    So rather than encourage more landlords into the market the Govt decides to create the RTB and make it tenant favoured.

    The result landlords leave the market, a property that was housing for example four adults is sold to a couple as their first property. So now we have two less bed spaces to rent. So in a time where supply is not meeting demand the Govt forces some landlords to leave the market and as a result a reduction in bed spaces.

    Personally I don't think the Govt are capable of solving the situation, if they are seen to encourage the landlords people will go against the Govt, if they are seen to encourage quicker evictions for non payment of rent the people go against them.

    What politician in their proper mind would want to do either of the above, their political career would be over. So they blame the landlords, they set up Approved Housing Bodies, they blame the local councils.

    And while the blame game is happening the rental sector gets even more dysfunctional.

    The sad part about this is that its the ordinary person who is actually suffering, the person who can't afford to rent, the small landlord who bought as a pension, or outgrew the property, the local taxi driver, the local electrician, the local shop keeper.

    I firmly believe no politician or party actually has the ability to fix the problem. Housing is quickly catching up with Health as another problem that is getting bigger and bigger as each day passes and nobody seems capable of slowing the growing problem.


  • #58
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    The Student wrote: »
    Maybe treat it as a business like any other. If you don't pay for the service it is not supplied.

    The tax and quicker eviction would be enough for me personally. The tax payable is crazy, and not only that you pay PRSI on your rental income and get nothing in return for it as it is classed as unearned income Revenue in its wisdom charges you PRSI but you get nothing for it.

    Let economics play its part eg supply and demand. Nobody is expecting anybody to bail out the landlords where they don't want or cant continue in the business. But to expect someone to pay a mortgage when they are not receiving their rent is ridiculous.

    Using your sentiment of all landlords will eventually leave the market then the same can be said for tenants who either buy a property or are housed by the State.

    The model of landlords with one or two properties actually would work if the playing field was leveled a bit. Institutional landlords don't tenants an inch, small landlords actually do.

    Is the eviction thing really a problem tho? The only figures I've seen on it show overholding is a tiny issue in reality, not having a go but on boards like this and others I think it is exaggerated beyond belief. I was a landlord over a decade and never had an issue with it, know a good number of others who were also landlords and same thing. Yes it goes on, but I dont see it as the problem its made out to be.


  • #59
    SozBbz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    terrydel wrote: »
    Is the eviction thing really a problem tho? The only figures I've seen on it show overholding is a tiny issue in reality, not having a go but on boards like this and others I think it is exaggerated beyond belief. I was a landlord over a decade and never had an issue with it, know a good number of others who were also landlords and same thing. Yes it goes on, but I dont see it as the problem its made out to be.

    I'm not sure its a volume issue per say.

    But if you're the one unlucky LL who this happens to, then its a massive problem for you, especially if you only have one rented property.


  • #60
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    terrydel wrote: »
    Is the eviction thing really a problem tho? The only figures I've seen on it show overholding is a tiny issue in reality, not having a go but on boards like this and others I think it is exaggerated beyond belief. I was a landlord over a decade and never had an issue with it, know a good number of others who were also landlords and same thing. Yes it goes on, but I dont see it as the problem its made out to be.

    If you only own a single property and you get caught then it is a massive problem. I personally know of a few landlords who have paid their tenants to leave a property. They took a business decision not to go down the RTB route.

    Unfortunately this is never reported so the actual reported figs of evictions are not accurate.


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  • #61
    riemann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭riemann


    handlemaster wrote: »
    This post just shows your lack of understanding of how a proper property market should work. There should always be a mix of property owners in the market

    Its fairly easy to understand. What we need is more government controlled/owned public housing.

    House of cards will come falling down again soon. It's as if people never learn.

    I wonder why 55,000 landlords sold up? Maybe because property prices have peaked and it was the right time to sell.


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