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Torture, in exceptional circumstances

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    #62
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    elefant wrote: »
    Leaving aside the questionable value of anything gleaned through torturing a person for information, legislating for torture would also have major consequences for many people and institutions beyond the individuals actually be subjected to the act.
    • Who trains our torturers?
    • What effects does torturing someone have on the torturer, especially in the very possible (almost inevitable?) scenario they torture somebody innocent?
    • How about the torturer's family who have to live in a house with someone trained to dehumanise people?
    • What about our medical institutes starting to be used to heal people for the sole purpose of readying them for more torture?
    • The consequences of having these institutes starting to do research into the best ways to inflict unbearable pain on people?

    Just a few things to consider when thinking about what torture in exceptional circumstance would mean for our society.

    Good questions. I think all this stuff is just Internet big-man talk. In reality, a person who would actually torture people is a massive risk and I wouldn't want them anywhere me or my children.

    Anyone who says they would torture oeople is either a clueless fantasist or a probable psychopath. In either case it's useful that they've would admit to being someone who's best avoided.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    He would probably lie as that's what tends to happen in torture.

    If we were 100% certain he was the person responsible AND the child was still alive somewhere and in danger. Then I would but performing torture is not something that normal, decent people could do without carrying the guilt and memory forever. It would scar you no matter what the outcome


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    #64
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    He would probably lie as that's what tends to happen in torture.

    If we were 100% certain he was the person responsible AND the child was still alive somewhere and in danger. Then I would but performing torture is not something that normal, decent people could do without carrying the guilt and memory forever. It would scar you no matter what the outcome

    It would likely be no problem for a psychopath. But yeah, a normal person wouldn't be able to do it without being deeply effected.


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    #65
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    So it's was/is okay to get junior doctors to work 90 hr weeks and make critical decisions, when they are too tired to legally and safely drive home. How do hospitals get away with that?


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    #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    So it's was/is okay to get junior doctors to work 90 hr weeks and make critical decisions, when they are too tired to legally and safely drive home. How do hospitals get away with that?

    this is relevent how?


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    #67
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    If you have to torture someone ...it usually means you have the wrong person and they don't know what to tell you.

    Also if you are living in a country that allows torture ...your justice system hasn't a clue and prob couldn't find a body if it was ten feet away from them.


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    #68
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    So it's was/is okay to get junior doctors to work 90 hr weeks and make critical decisions, when they are too tired to legally and safely drive home. How do hospitals get away with that?

    Junior Doctors work on average 48 hrs a week in the UK. It's something similar here.

    A small percentage work over 60 hrs some weeks. I think its like 33%. But officially 67% work under 60 hrs per week and more like 48 50.

    Still too long though.

    And not acceptable.


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    #69
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    this is relevent how?

    sleep deprivation. Try it some time. You'd give up your firstborn for some sleep.


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    #70
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    sleep deprivation. Try it some time. You'd give up your firstborn for some sleep.
    No one is saying its a good thing stove.


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    #71
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    If someone planted an atomic bomb and refused to give the disarm code then torture* might be used.

    However, the torturer and whoever approved it would have to to be prosecuted in a court of law afterwards and defend their actions. It's the only way to be sure it's only used in exceptional circumstance.


    security.png


    *People will tell you anything under torture to make it stop. Hence El Dorado was always lying just beyond the next tribes land when the Conquistadores asked. The Soviets used to just get people drunk and chatty. Magic truth serum wasn't much better.


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    sleep deprivation. Try it some time. You'd give up your firstborn for some sleep.

    Have, many people with long hours. Still not torture


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    #73
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Have, many people with long hours. Still not torture
    Some German soldiers reckoned the worst part of the Eastern Front was the lack of sleep.

    The Eastern Front was not a nice assignment.


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    #74
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Depends on the circumstances.

    If there is a terror attack imminent or a police race against time, then Jack Bauer type methods would be applicable.

    If you have a detainee with a lot of information then the best method would be to stick them in a cold damp cell with no clothes and toilet for a week or 2. They'll crack with the promise of a warmer cell,clothes and sanitation.

    If you wanted to punish somebody then the above would probably be good method. But also to break their teeth how they will have a gnawing pain along with the damp and cold.


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Some German soldiers reckoned the worst part of the Eastern Front was the lack of sleep.

    The Eastern Front was not a nice assignment.

    Yes, if they had gotten their 8 hours a night then the killing, raping and torturing of women and children would have been marvelous fun altogether.

    Still no one has said sleep deprivation is nice and again, plenty of people have had to work long hours at some point. It's not relevant to the subject at hand.


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus lads, it was a jokey thread.


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    #77
    FGR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭FGR


    If it's a case of a live bomb or people who are known to be alive in a particular location but will die within a short timeframe unless we're told where they are - if we're 100% satisfied that we have the suspect in custody then I can't see how people would be willing to let them sit there quite happily availing of their rights and entitlements while their victims and families will potentially lose everything.

    What if some of those people are your loved ones or are known innocents such as children? There has to be a point where enhanced techniques must be tried by a trained individual for the greater good.

    Sleep deprivation, denial of comfort by being confined to standing room, loud noise or bright lights can be just as painful as waterboarding and physical torture.

    Where is the line to be drawn? Tbh I'd find it difficult to not let the option be considered. And even then its authorisation from the highest authorities.

    AH answer: get Christian Bale to don his dark knight costume one more time. If he got the (albeit backwards) answers from Joker then it has to be worth something!


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    #78
    bobbyy gee
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭bobbyy gee


    Murder and torture

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-parliament-pushes-forward-bill-limit-torture-prosecutions


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    #79
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    TheAnalyst_ wrote: »
    Never. Not torture, no capital punishment whatever the crime.

    So you honestly believe that the likes of Rudolf Höss were unjustly convicted and executed ?


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    #80
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 7,993 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Why wait until the person is in prison before the concept of torture is considered. It would be way more effective during the interrogation and before a trial. But it would be a risk that any admission of guilt was tainted or any evidence illicited would be inadmissible. Not a risk worth taking.

    If waited until after conviction, then is the impact on the people who have to do it and the impact it will have on the person who has to sign off ( family member) worth it.


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    #81
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Depends on the circumstances.

    If there is a terror attack imminent or a police race against time, then Jack Bauer type methods would be applicable.

    If you have a detainee with a lot of information then the best method would be to stick them in a cold damp cell with no clothes and toilet for a week or 2. They'll crack with the promise of a warmer cell,clothes and sanitation.

    If you wanted to punish somebody then the above would probably be good method. But also to break their teeth how they will have a gnawing pain along with the damp and cold.

    Yeah shur didn't they try that with the IRA boys inn he north. Cold, damp, dark cell, boarded up from the outside, regular beatings, smells of delicious food wafting into the cell, promise of better cells and and shur didn't they all give up the information in a week or 2? That was just trying to get them to wear prison clothes.

    This stuff doesn't work for anything except lads on the Internet expressing torture fantasies.


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    #82
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    meathstevie wrote: »
    So you honestly believe that the likes of Rudolf Höss were unjustly convicted and executed ?

    He was given a fair trial in 1945 and then not hanged.

    Technically he was in solitary for 21 years, except for the night the mission impossible crew kidnapped him to find out where the maguffin was, as he was the only person in the prison. And then they knocked it down.


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    #83
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    He was given a fair trial in 1945 and then not hanged.

    Technically he was in solitary for 21 years, except for the night the mission impossible crew kidnapped him to find out where the maguffin was, as he was the only person in the prison. And then they knocked it down.

    Rudolf Hess was the guy in prison. Rudolf Hoess (can't do the umlaut, sorry) was hanged in 1947.


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    #84
    smck321
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭smck321


    Royal Irish wrote: »
    I'd be in favor of enhanced interrogation being used like sleep deprivation, water boarding, etc. But no pulling finger nails or anything barbaric like that.

    You've never done shift work, or customer service then. I'd rather pull my fingernails out myself.


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    #85
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    That was just trying to get them to wear prison clothes.

    Yes, that was clever. Spend your life outside wearing denim, head to toe, then when the Man issues you denim to wear inside, just like every other prisoner in the UK prison system, you refuse food and smear **** on the walls. That went well.


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    #86
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    That was just trying to get them to wear prison clothes.

    Yes, that was clever. Spend your life outside wearing denim, head to toe, then when the Man issues you denim to wear inside, just like every other prisoner in the UK prison system, you refuse food and smear **** on the walls. That went well.

    Well, it shows how the torture failed to get them to do what the tortures wanted. It failed to get them to do something they might have done anyway if they weren't being tortured to do it.

    I'm not sure if you know the story and are just simplifying it for the sake of your argument, but it doesn't matter as your version demonstrates the failure of torture.


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    #87
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    I agree. All miltaries and police know that torture tends to end in failure because the recipient knows and the inflictor knows that the victim will say anything to make it stop. Initially, it might make a suspect blab but it almost always ends up with the victim making up lies to get the torture to stop. That's why more subtle tricks or threats to harm third parties tends to be more effective. The Germans used a technique called "sippenhaft" to make suspects blab,by simply threatening family members, if one person spied or deserted or committed sabotage. You act against the State, all of your family will be jailed or shot. The Gestapo relied on threats and fear and the ease with which they could use the population to control itself, to police the civilian population and even the military population, way out of proportion to the actual size of the Gestapo.


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    #88
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,770 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    speaking of people in jail

    Will mark chapman ever get released ??

    Hes been up for parole a few times but always refused. Yoko Ono seems to think he will go after Johns Son


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