Dream time. If you had €200 billion what would you spend it on?

CatInABox · 06-01-2020 1:05am

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

You want/support something like the uk's (conventional HS2), now at £108bn, years/decades of delays, destruction of wildlife sites, no real carbon-offset, and a distant completion date of 2040? ok...

If you're actually worried about the cost and the environmental impact of HS2, wait until you see the environmental impact of the hundreds of roads projects that will take its place instead.

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-01-2020 2:44pm

CatInABox wrote: »

If you're actually worried about the cost and the environmental impact of HS2, wait until you see the environmental impact of the hundreds of roads projects that will take its place instead.

The much needed 'upgrading and improvement' of their (existing) potholed roads and dysfunctional rail, would have close to zero enviromental impact and could be completed within 5yrs instead decades of £bn's overspend on HS2.

Back in 2013 (before cost escalation) DfT & NR own studies (by Atkins) showed between 43-300% better value for money on upgrade programmes than new spending on HSRail.

With over-crowding, delays and and above yearly over-inflation prices rises, often with ticket prices higher than actual air travel (Ldn-Lds) addressing current issues should be the 1st port of call.

Then if some business people want to get to their Northern cities (quicker than actual air travel), then plan for next gen Maglev/Loop (with smaller enviromental impacts) which will do exactly that, for which they'll happily pay for in return for time-savings.

CatInABox · 06-01-2020 3:26pm

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

The much needed 'upgrading and improvement' of their (existing) potholed roads and dysfunctional rail, would have close to zero enviromental impact and could be completed within 5yrs instead decades of £bn's overspend on HS2.

The entire HS2 project is 140 miles and will impact on 29 hectares.
The A21 widening was 2.5 miles and removed 9 hectares.

Second, if you build roads, you get more cars. Induced demand isn't a theory, it's a proven fact. The environmental impact of these increased vehicle miles is far more significant than that of HS2.

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Then if some business people want to get to their Northern cities (quicker than actual air travel), then plan for next gen Maglev/Loop (with smaller enviromental impacts) which will do exactly that, for which they'll happily pay for in return for time-savings.

So you're against HS2 for environmental and cost reasons, but then advocate waiting for an even more expensive technology that will have at least the same environmental impact?

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Just FYI, HS2 isn't just for getting from London to the cities faster, it includes a massive increase in commuter capacity for all these other cities too.

Literally all of the other options are terrible as well. Add more lines to the existing tracks? There's thousands upon thousands of houses right up against the tracks, plus the existing lines would be severely disrupted during the lengthy construction works. I mean, they only just finished one major upgrade project of the lines in 2005, at a cost of £10 billion, and it's already at capacity.

Idbatterim · 06-01-2020 4:22pm

Ill say this, that any government, during boom periods, should sanction as much infrastructure spending as they can, at least when shovels are in the ground, they cant be cancelled. Otherwise they are mothballed during the recession, costing jobs and just sent up in smoke on maintaining welfare payments etc...

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-01-2020 4:29pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The entire HS2 project is 140 miles and will impact on 29 hectares.

You only refer to London-Birmingham which isn't the 'entire' project. With Phase2 of HS2 it equates to total of 330 miles. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

This project includes tearing (new) routes through many dozens ancient woodlands and green field sites, that road widening, upgrades and repairs wouldn't do to the same effect.

Even reducing the current 4% figure for NRail journey cancelations would help, nevermind the 4.3% figure for 15min(+) delays.

CatInABox wrote: »

So you're against HS2 for environmental and cost reasons, but then advocate waiting for an even more expensive technology that will have at least the same environmental impact?

Maglev as a 2nd (faster) choice, but ideally a wait for HLoop which has a smaller footprint (single 5m wide sealed tube on stilts) could still beat HS2's 2040 completion date if less groundworks are required.

Dubai will have the the first phase of their HL project, (10-kilometre track in Abu Dhabi) in place next year. But India is set to complete their 100miles of Hyperloop by 2029 (certification by 2023) that would provide better insight.

CatInABox wrote: »

Just FYI, HS2 isn't just for getting from London to the cities faster, it includes a massive increase in commuter capacity for all these other cities too.

Speed is also directly relative to capacity.

Already (2018) HS2 admitted it would have to reduce top speeds by 50kmph to save costs, and also reduce from 18 to 14 trains per hour, as they spent far too many pennies already, whoops!

ncounties · 06-01-2020 4:40pm

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

Maglev as a 2nd (faster) choice, but ideally a wait for HLoop which has a smaller footprint (single 5m wide sealed tube on stilts) could still beat HS2's 2040 completion date if less groundworks are required.

Dubai will have the the first phase of their HL project, (10-kilometre track in Abu Dhabi) in place next year. But India is set to complete their 100miles of Hyperloop by 2029 (certification by 2023) that would provide better insight.

The idea of building a Hyperloop or Maglev in Ireland (when we can barely build a Metro), let alone in the UK or the Continent, is lunacy. Teleportation has a higher chance of being implemented. Stop embarressing yourself.

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-01-2020 4:58pm

ncounties wrote: »

The idea of building a Hyperloop or Maglev in Ireland (when we can barely build a Metro), let alone in the UK or the Continent, is lunacy.

Which will might shortly rank India as more advanced and capable than any country in Europe for high speed transport.

Granted Europe now lags behind China, but there have been some (more demonstrative) low-speed maglev lines in Europe, e.g. the Air rail in Birmingham (1984( and the M-Bahn in Berlin. Europe has long considered them, perhaps slowed down by Transrapid's crash in 2006. But there has been some renewed interest in Italy.

Italy (like France/Spain) also is considering HTT (Hloop) 'feasibility studies' for two 150km sections.

Like electric cars, a decade ago folks would scratch their heads, today they browse the latest Nissan Leaf brochure.

Looking backwards (at generic conventional HSRail), you can already see a country with x10 the population and density of Ireland can't do it right, on time, nor on budget.

SeanW · 06-01-2020 6:00pm

I forgot about, and was going to add to my list:

DART to Navan (via Clonsilla)

But I don't seem to be able to edit my posts right now? Anyways, how does the UKs HS2 plan and hyperloops relate to Ireland? Perhaps we should have an HS2 thread?

06-01-2020 6:13pm

Enough of the latest nuclear reactors to cover 100% of our baseload energy needs for the foreseeable future. Shut down all the coal turf and gas plants. Use renewables when possible.

Finish the Cork to Limerick motorway with a branch off at Fermoy from the M8 and connect to Galway one. Continue it up to Donegal.
Connect Dundalk to this motorway with another one.
Build another motorway from Cork to Waterford.
Build a new hospital in Cork and a few more at strategic locations outside but near major population centres with lots of bed space, good public transport links and parking.
Have the inter city trains run at 160kmh speeds.
Connect Cork / Belfast via train and add a metro to Dublin to the airport with one big ass tunnel.
Make the Cork bus service reliable. A LUAS for Cork (CLUAS ? ) is unnecessary and a gigantic waste of money.

How much money have I left?

Beta Ray Bill · 06-01-2020 6:17pm

Big Huge Massive tunnel under the seabed to France.

€200 Billion might not even be enough.

Channel Tunnel is about 40km's and cost around €20Billion in todays money

Tunnel from Cork to Roscoff would be around 450km... I think we'd be short a few bob.

Reasoning: Borris will build the bridge from the UK to NI, this will cement and reaffirm that NI is British and not Irish.
An NI Bridge and a hard border would be absolutely devastating to the economy of the south.

CatInABox · 06-01-2020 6:38pm

Rayna Slow Salami wrote: »

You only refer to London-Birmingham which isn't the 'entire' project. With Phase2 of HS2 it equates to total of 330 miles. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

This project includes tearing (new) routes through many dozens ancient woodlands and green field sites, that road widening, upgrades and repairs wouldn't do to the same effect.

You're right, HS2 is actually 330 miles long, and will remove 58 hectares. That's actually a better "hectare removed per mile" than the 29 for 140 I gave earlier. Really puts that 9 hectares removed for 2.5 miles of road widening in perspective.

Of course, there's no way that they'd be able to deal with the projected growth in those regions without new roads as well as road upgrades, and those are a massive environmental catastrophe. As an example, the Lower Thames crossing project will remove 54 hectares of forest for a grand total of 14 miles. Replicate that up and down the HS2, because that's what's going to happen.

And it won't be just road widening, there'll be new roads as well, which is have horrific effects.

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-01-2020 7:21pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Big Huge Massive tunnel under the seabed to France. €200 Billion might not even be enough.

This is better blue sky thinking, the benefits of direct access to 1/2bn would pay for itself (at some stage). Perhaps they just need to wait for a better next gen drill to reduce costs. Bertha with her cutterhead diameter of 57.5 and 60 feet per day might be out of service/retired/broke.

Edit: Tuen Mun - Chek Lap Kok TBMis the latest biggest yoke, but is currently 50m underwater HK, doing some other boring stuff.

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Reasoning: Borris will build the bridge from the UK to NI, this will cement and reaffirm that NI is British and not Irish.

NI is whatever it (50.01%) choose to be according to the GFA, also by then 'New Alba' (Indie Scotia) will be good old buddies with Norway/EU, fly the braveheart DVD cover as their new flag, maybe even sport a new national anthem written by the Proclaimers (or BigCountry's self titled tune may suffice).

D.L.R. · 06-01-2020 7:33pm

This is an infrastructure thread, not a nationalist tub thumping thread.

Cheers.

santana75 · 06-01-2020 7:42pm

I'd buy some land and build a place for homeless people to stay/live for as long as they wished. The land would be used to grow crops which the people staying there could tend to and use to create meals for themselves. There'd be counselling, support and medical personnel but also classes in essential life skills. But mostly it would be a place where people where treated like human beings and they weren't rushed out the door as soon as possible.

Ubbquittious · 06-01-2020 7:48pm

Wild atlantic railway, covering the wild atlantic way from cork to donegal with a few tunnels under the sea to skip over peninsulas and the odd funicular here and there. It will run on turf

Zebra3 · 06-01-2020 10:17pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Big Huge Massive tunnel under the seabed to France.

€200 Billion might not even be enough.

Channel Tunnel is about 40km's and cost around €20Billion in todays money

Tunnel from Cork to Roscoff would be around 450km... I think we'd be short a few bob.

Reasoning: Borris will build the bridge from the UK to NI, this will cement and reaffirm that NI is British and not Irish.
An NI Bridge and a hard border would be absolutely devastating to the economy of the south.

There’ll be no bridge to Scotland.

Cloud cuckoo land stuff.

the_syco · 07-01-2020 12:23am

Change the LUAS to something that can run on the DART line.

Another runway in Dublin airport.

Convert the HP plant in Leixlip into a hospital.

Ubbquittious · 07-01-2020 12:32am

If there's anything left out of my 200bn I'd finish the western rail corridor too, double-tracked, electrified and with a "f**k the greenway" banner on both sides every 50 yards

mickdoocey · 07-01-2020 12:36am

I am sure it has been posted already, but pay off the national debt and if anything left invest in the defense forces.

Sam Russell · 07-01-2020 12:43am

Zebra3 wrote: »

There’ll be no bridge to Scotland.

Cloud cuckoo land stuff.

The narrowest stretch is barren, empty land. Larne to Stranraer might work. (It wont).

40 km for bridge from Larne to Stranraer, then it takes two hours to get from Stranraer to Gretna Green, which is on the Scottish border with England. Then where do you go? Stranraer to Dover is nearly 9 hours - more for a truck.

There is no rail service to Stranraer, it only goes as far as Ayr. So the bridge will not be a rail bridge.

It is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere over very deep water. Bridges need supports - the longest span worldwide is 2 km, so 20 or more spans and so 20 towers. The Beaufort Dyke is 200 to 300 m deep and filled with discarded WW II munitions.

It is just absolute nonsense.

CatInABox · 07-01-2020 8:04am

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If there's anything left out of my 200bn I'd finish the western rail corridor too, double-tracked, electrified and with a "f**k the greenway" banner on both sides every 50 yards

Despite supporting the greenway down there, I'd actually build the western rail corridor too, except I wouldn't run it on the existing alignment,I'd make it actually useful by running it through the areas that people live and want to go to instead of empty countryside.

Ulysses Gaze · 07-01-2020 8:23am

Most of the above mentioned and build a Nuclear power plant for power needs.

kilns · 07-01-2020 9:40am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

In fairness, Switzerland is a country with a historical policy of centralising nothing. Each canton has its own different laws and even languages. Most countries our size have one pretty large city compared to the rest.

Serbia, Greece, Denmark,Finland, Norway, Czechia, Austria etc. all have major cities far larger than the next few cities in their country combined.Even France and the UK are in the same situation.

Countries like Spain and Germany are more spread out, but like Switzerland that's due to a long history of strong subdivisions with nation-like identities. Ireland has never had this.

I agree, however it is a model which should be looked at I still think. When you pay taxes you pay federal, Kantonal and Gemeinde tax. Each cent paid goes to the entity it is paid for, so for example you pay Gemeinde tax and that goes into your local gemiende which usually is your town and you can see you tax at work. This way the tax goes to where it is intended.

Each Kanton looks after itself essentially and makes its own laws, taxes etc so if a county like Kerry wants to elect gombeens like the Healy Raes then let them but they will only affect Kerry and not the the national interest.

But it also comes down to the greater good in many way, the Swiss will take the tough decisions if it benefits the country and its ecomony (for example the vote to increase the amount of holidays was defeated as it was believed the country would become unproductive can you imagine Irelands vote on that). I am afraid to say Irish people are selfish by nature and are very short sighted they want every thing now and dont want to pay for it

Dots1982 · 07-01-2020 3:05pm

mickdoocey wrote: »

I am sure it has been posted already, but pay off the national debt and if anything left invest in the defense forces.

Can you explain why you think having a more well resources army would make Ireland a better place?

Markcheese · 07-01-2020 3:25pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If there's anything left out of my 200bn I'd finish the western rail corridor too, double-tracked, electrified and with a "f**k the greenway" banner on both sides every 50 yards

Hey if it's coming out of your money then you do what you like ... Seems a bit petty .. but when your personal line runs out of money just to run it they'll convert it to the "f**k the Greenway ,Greenway " after its abandoned anyway , giving all involved a good laugh ...

Markcheese · 07-01-2020 3:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The narrowest stretch is barren, empty land. Larne to Stranraer might work. (It wont).

40 km for bridge from Larne to Stranraer, then it takes two hours to get from Stranraer to Gretna Green, which is on the Scottish border with England. Then where do you go? Stranraer to Dover is nearly 9 hours - more for a truck.

There is no rail service to Stranraer, it only goes as far as Ayr. So the bridge will not be a rail bridge.

It is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere over very deep water. Bridges need supports - the longest span worldwide is 2 km, so 20 or more spans and so 20 towers. The Beaufort Dyke is 200 to 300 m deep and filled with discarded WW II munitions.

It is just absolute nonsense.

Spoilsport.... The Boris bridge is already in the que ,right after the high speed rail link to Scotland . (Which might make some sense ,except hs2 and hs 3 to Manchester are already estimated to cost over 100 billion )

Sam Russell · 07-01-2020 4:02pm

[

Markcheese wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

The narrowest stretch is barren, empty land. Larne to Stranraer might work. (It wont).

40 km for bridge from Larne to Stranraer, then it takes two hours to get from Stranraer to Gretna Green, which is on the Scottish border with England. Then where do you go? Stranraer to Dover is nearly 9 hours - more for a truck.

There is no rail service to Stranraer, it only goes as far as Ayr. So the bridge will not be a rail bridge.

It is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere over very deep water. Bridges need supports - the longest span worldwide is 2 km, so 20 or more spans and so 20 towers. The Beaufort Dyke is 200 to 300 m deep and filled with discarded WW II munitions.

It is just absolute nonsense.

Spoilsport.... The Boris bridge is already in the que ,right after the high speed rail link to Scotland . (Which might make some sense ,except hs2 and hs 3 to Manchester are already estimated to cost over 100 billion )

Spoilsport - maybe.

HS2 to Scotland sounds good, but where in Scotland - it is a big place and Stranraer is a good way from the border - 2 hours by car to Gretna Green. I cannot see any such bridge being built this century - if ever. I think teleporting will be more likely.

Perhaps a floating tunnel might be a better idea, but a 40 km tunnel would be some trick - too long for vehicles as it would require ventilation.

More likely is one going from Rosslare to the Welsh coast using artificial islands as there are sandbanks there. Or possible Dublin to Holyhead, as at least there would be traffic that way. Oh, wait - there is Brexit on the way, so where would the checks be?

riddlinrussell · 07-01-2020 5:43pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Despite supporting the greenway down there, I'd actually build the western rail corridor too, except I wouldn't run it on the existing alignment,I'd make it actually useful by running it through the areas that people live and want to go to instead of empty countryside.

Yeah my money would go to fresh alignments making rail travel viable in Ireland, and if theres €3-400m left at the end then all the old alignments will get a nice eco viable surface put down for walking and cycling. Plus all the other greenways getting funding, oh and if I can somehow use some of the money to force planners to reject plans without adequate cycling and walking provision that would be great.

D.L.R. · 07-01-2020 7:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

HS2 to Scotland sounds good, but where in Scotland

Central Belt, obvs.

Sam Russell · 07-01-2020 7:43pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Central Belt, obvs.

But that is nowhere near the proposed bridge.

Dream time. If you had €200 billion what would you spend it on?

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