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Navan Rail Line

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Comments

  • #62
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    marno21 wrote: »
    No chance of the N2 upgrade carrying a rail line. Apart from population densities, the gradients and curves on the N2 upgrade (a good bit of which will be online upgrades of existing road) will be too severe for rail lines.

    I am suggesting to build the new stretches of road straight and level enough to carry a railway. I am aware that if any road was built without this consideration, there would the be gradients and curves you mention.


  • #63
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,282 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the road has those grades because of the landscape. if you wanted to build a level railway track, it'd involve levelling land on a massive scale.


  • #64
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Dublin-Derry Translink bus serves Armagh.

    I didn't know that - thanks. Perhaps that wasn't the case though when I was traveling which was several years ago.


  • #65
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Lord Fairlord wrote: »
    I didn't know that - thanks. Perhaps that wasn't the case though when I was traveling which was several years ago.

    You are both right.

    There are two routes

    X3: Dublin-Derry via Ardee, Monaghan and Omagh
    X4: Dublin-Derry via Armagh and Cookstown


  • #66
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the road has those grades because of the landscape. if you wanted to build a level railway track, it'd involve levelling land on a massive scale.

    I'm aware you'd need to do more levelling to build a level railway and road on the same alignment, but I'm guessing it would be easier(cheaper, less disruptive) to build the two of them together like this than it would be to build them separately.


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  • #67
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    As always, a reminder that a rail line between Dublin and Navan currently exists and is currently used 24 times a week. Imagine that? An actual rail line in use between Navan and Dublin that could be used to bring passengers from one to the other...


  • #68
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    As always, a reminder that a rail line between Dublin and Navan currently exists and is currently used 24 times a week. Imagine that? An actual rail line in use between Navan and Dublin that could be used to bring passengers from one to the other...

    What kind of journey time is it though? And could they fit these extra trains into the schedule along the northern line?


  • #69
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,240 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    As always, a reminder that a rail line between Dublin and Navan currently exists and is currently used 24 times a week. Imagine that? An actual rail line in use between Navan and Dublin that could be used to bring passengers from one to the other...
    Is it suitable for carrying passenger? Likely no.

    Would it be competitive on time? Likely no.

    Are there trains available? Likely no.


  • #70
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Victor wrote: »
    Is it suitable for carrying passenger? Likely no.

    Would it be competitive on time? Likely no.

    Are there trains available? Likely no.

    - It will need to be upgraded, no doubt about it. But that will be a much more realistic cost and timeline.

    - It won’t compete on time but if it is reliable and door to door some people will sacrifice 20 minutes for the convenience, comfort and predictability.

    - There are no trains available for a mooted new line either.


    We have a potential short term solution sitting there, available for minimal cost and time. We should always leverage our existing infrastructure where possible to provide additional service and meet demand. Much better than sitting around another decade arguing over a ‘perfect’ solution that will never be built.


  • #71
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    CatInABox wrote: »
    What kind of journey time is it though? And could they fit these extra trains into the schedule along the northern line?

    If Northern Line capacity was an insurmountable impediment, implementing a Navan to Drogheda service, changing at Drogheda and extending Drogheda to Dublin trains to accommodate additional load could be an option.

    Again, there’s a line from Navan that is used multiple times most days sitting there. Along with station facility, etc.


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  • #72
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    If Northern Line capacity was an insurmountable impediment, implementing a Navan to Drogheda service, changing at Drogheda and extending Drogheda to Dublin trains to accommodate additional load could be an option.

    Again, there’s a line from Navan that is used multiple times most days sitting there. Along with station facility, etc.

    Northern line trains are full to capacity at peak and at the shoulders of the peak too.

    Adding Navan passengers is a complete non-runner until the northern line is electrified and the extra DART stock delivered.

    Significant works would also be needed to make the Navan-Drogheda line suitable for passenger trains.


  • #73
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Northern line trains are full to capacity at peak and at the shoulders of the peak too.

    Adding Navan passengers is a complete non-runner until the northern line is electrified and the extra DART stock delivered.

    Significant works would also be needed to make the Navan-Drogheda line suitable for passenger trains.

    Define “significant”? We have freight trains going up and down it at 50mph.

    Again, the other things aren’t happening. This isn’t a perfect solution but you could get service up and running at a fraction of the cost and time


  • #74
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Define “significant”? We have freight trains going up and down it at 50mph.

    Again, the other things aren’t happening. This isn’t a perfect solution but you could get service up and running at a fraction of the cost and time

    You might want to check your background information as it is wrong.

    The line speed between Navan and Drogheda is 25 mph for the entire line, not 50 mph, along with train crew operated level crossing en route as well.

    That will require a fair bit of money to upgrade.

    It's not quite the easy fix you suggest, especially when combined with the capacity issues on the Northern Line.

    The freight trains are pretty much locked into their schedule which occupy the line between Drogheda and Navan from:

    06:00 and 06:50
    08:40 and 10:20
    12:35 and 13:20
    15:15 and 16:00
    19:05 and 19:50

    That doesn't leave a huge number of paths.


  • #75
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    You might want to check your background information as it is wrong.

    The line speed between Navan and Drogheda is 25 mph for the entire line, not 50 mph, along with train crew operated level crossing en route as well.

    That will require a fair bit of money to upgrade.

    It's not quite the easy fix you suggest, especially when combined with the capacity issues on the Northern Line.

    The freight trains are pretty much locked into their schedule which occupy the line between Drogheda and Navan from:

    06:00 and 06:50
    08:40 and 10:20
    12:35 and 13:20
    15:15 and 16:00
    19:05 and 19:50

    That doesn't leave a huge number of paths.

    For us rail supporters, it would be a bad move to campaign for this line to have passenger services started. For the reasons listed above, and in previous posts, it is clear that any service would provide poor timings, speed, and connectivity with Dublin.

    If we did regardless of all of the above, push ahead; the low ridership and satisfaction which would be seen with the service would be something that the anti-rail lobby could use against any suggestion of extending the M3 Parkway line northward to Ashbourne, Dunshaughlin and Navan.


  • #76
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Platform 11 (as was) looked into this many many years ago and reckoned a journey time of about 1:20 was achievable via the Navan-Drogheda line. I don't know how this compares with bus services.

    Realistically this option should have been considered when the previous plan to reopen via Clonsilla was long-fingered. It's unlikely to get much traction now if the Clonsilla option is back on the table.


  • #77
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Platform 11 (as was) looked into this many many years ago and reckoned a journey time of about 1:20 was achievable via the Navan-Drogheda line. I don't know how this compares with bus services.

    Realistically this option should have been considered when the previous plan to reopen via Clonsilla was long-fingered. It's unlikely to get much traction now if the Clonsilla option is back on the table.

    Sadly, it’s not compatible with the current line speed on the Navan branch and probably a bigger problem is that the 10 minute DART service is up and running, there is little or no scope for extra trains without improving the infrastructure.


  • #78
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Victor wrote: »
    Is it suitable for carrying passenger? Likely no.

    Would it be competitive on time? Likely no.

    Are there trains available? Likely no.

    Are there reasons never to try? Always.


  • #79
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Platform 11 (as was) looked into this many many years ago and reckoned a journey time of about 1:20 was achievable via the Navan-Drogheda line. I don't know how this compares with bus services.

    Realistically this option should have been considered when the previous plan to reopen via Clonsilla was long-fingered. It's unlikely to get much traction now if the Clonsilla option is back on the table.

    €54m

    Sounds great!


  • #80
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Are there reasons never to try? Always.

    Using the Navan-Drogheda line for passenger trains would be better than nothing, and I do see why some want this to be done over reopening M3 Parkway-Navan.
    I think reopening M3 Parkway-Navan is worth the extra money it would cost. If it's reopened, the Kilmessan-Trim branch can be reopened, and a new branch can be built to Rathoath and Ashbourne.


  • #81
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Essentially you have to ask whether an imperfect solution at achievable budget and timeline (that might spur needed improvement works on the busiest branch of the national rail network) is preferable to waiting forever for the ‘perfect’ solution that lacks the political will given the budget and timelines involved.

    There is currently no national appetite to break new ground for heavy rail projects, rightly or wrongly. Leveraging existing infrastructure and rights of way should be the starting point of every conversation.


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  • #82
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Essentially you have to ask whether an imperfect solution at achievable budget and timeline (that might spur needed improvement works on the busiest branch of the national rail network) is preferable to waiting forever for the ‘perfect’ solution that lacks the political will given the budget and timelines involved.

    There is currently no national appetite to break new ground for heavy rail projects, rightly or wrongly. Leveraging existing infrastructure and rights of way should be the starting point of every conversation.

    Fair point - the Navan line is never going to be top of the infrastructure priority list, it's likely to keep getting kicked to touch in favour of other projects (particularly if there's a downturn).

    If the existing line could be brought up to spec for (say) 50m that would be a reasonably cheap solution that would in turn show demand for the more expensive project (the issue of lack of rolling stock is separate - they have to buy trains anyway).


  • #83
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    You still have the issue of a lack of paths on the Northern line at peak times.

    That is the main problem.


  • #84
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    You still have the issue of a lack of paths on the Northern line at peak times.

    That is the main problem.

    Improvements are required along the northern line. Further resignalling and double tracking should be a key priority for Irish Rail. These things could be kicked off in tandem.

    I think spending money in these areas is a far better use of funds than extending M3 to Navan or extending the western rail corridor anyway. We need to be squeezing every drop out of that we’ve got.


  • #85
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Reopening the original line is not a realistic option, large chunks of it no longer exist. Reopening it involves the same extent of works as building a new line but has the disadvantage of a Victorian era alignment and serves no real population between Dunboyne and Navan. As I said before, a new alignment would have to be on the basis that it acts as an alternative to the northern line for trains north of Drogheda.


  • #86
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Improvements are required along the northern line. Further resignalling and double tracking should be a key priority for Irish Rail. These things could be kicked off in tandem.

    I think spending money in these areas is a far better use of funds than extending M3 to Navan or extending the western rail corridor anyway. We need to be squeezing every drop out of that we’ve got.

    I’m just making the point that it isn’t quite as straightforward as you are making out.

    None of those are even on the capital spending horizon at the moment even though they should be.


  • #87
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,096 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Reopening the original line is not a realistic option, large chunks of it no longer exist. Reopening it involves the same extent of works as building a new line but has the disadvantage of a Victorian era alignment and serves no real population between Dunboyne and Navan. As I said before, a new alignment would have to be on the basis that it acts as an alternative to the northern line for trains north of Drogheda.

    The Tara Mines train goes along the line closed to passenger trains since 1958 on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day. Line is in use and whole. Estimates to upgrade (including new stations) is €54m


  • #88
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The Tara Mines train goes along the line closed to passenger trains since 1958 on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day. Line is in use and whole. Estimates to upgrade (including new stations) is €54m

    That is the Navan - Drogheda line which takes Tara Mines trains, it's not the same as extending from M3 Parkway as was suggested earlier.


  • #89
    gibgodsman
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭gibgodsman


    Navan will never get a rail line, there is far too much money for the Government to make with the use of the tolls on the M3 and money they get from Bus Eireann. Its by far the largest town in Ireland without any sort of rail line and its a disgrace, it makes working in Dublin impossible or a completely different lifestyle.


  • #90
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The Tara Mines train goes along the line closed to passenger trains since 1958 on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day. Line is in use and whole. Estimates to upgrade (including new stations) is €54m

    Again though that’s an estimate from some time ago.
    Costs will have escalated since.


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  • #91
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    https://youtu.be/ChqvXMAUnkM

    In 1991 with 25mph speed restrictions the journey time to Drogheda was 35 minutes. So journey time to Connolly would be 1:30 plus stops and an allowance for congestion at Drogheda and Connolly. It is slower than the bus which has a typical journey time of 1:20. When you add in the fact that the bus drops you into the city centre rather than Connolly, the bus is even more attractive.
    Naturally this journey time would drop with upgrade works but the cost benefit ratio for the line between Clonsilla and Navan given the other towns served along that route would be higher.

    The rail users rates converted to per km seem about right when compared to Irish Rail Strategy figures but they have underestimated the cost per station. They also do not allow for the purchase of new rolling stock. Irish Rail cost a 6 car set at €20m. So even allowing for a very conservative 5 new trains you’ve tripled your budget.

    So €65m to upgrade this line or roughly €220m for the Rolls Royce upgrade to Pace - Navan (could be done as single track for €130m).

    And finally, to clarify a point made earlier, Navan is not the largest town in Ireland without a rail line. That “honour” of course goes to Swords.


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