Forest replant

Eddies farm · 16-04-2017 5:32pm #1

Hello,I have a question here,if I was to buy a forest(20 years planted) do I have to replant it when the time comes to clear fell it,even though I didn't get any grants for it over the years

timfromtang · 17-04-2017 8:25am

Hi Eddie,
Yes you would be required to replant the law existed before any grants etc.
However depending on the species planted, and on how you fell the timber you could potentially use natural regeneration to replace the forest, and have a much reduced or even no replanting cost.
To achieve this, you'd first remove some patches of trees to allow light in and seeds to germinate, then after some years if regeneration is successful remove most of the rest leaving a few seed trees standing, finally when the site is covered in regenerated stems, fell the remaining seed trees. Some years after this it would be necessary to select crop trees from the regen and clear the rest to give growing space. From then on thin as normal.
Have a forester help you out.
hope this helps
tim

Eddies farm · 17-04-2017 10:36am

Timfromtang thanks for the reply, It's stupid that you would have put it back into forest,what would happen if it was put back into farm land. Does the new forest have to be planted 60 meters back for public road and houses?

timfromtang · 17-04-2017 4:34pm

well Eddie, if that is your opinion that is good.
My opinion is..............
It is the case that our Island was severely deforested when our oppressors left at the start of the last century, we were left with less than 2% forest cover. We are slowly recovering, but for the last 100 years or more we have not even been self sufficient in wood. although we produce food for about 5 times our population. This too is stupid. The land of Ireland is some of the best temperate land in the world for growing trees, I would suggest that it is Stupid that we are not self sufficient in timber.
The law I am talking of has been in existence for a long time, long before the advent of grant aided private forestry.
For most of the history of Hurling we have had to import most of the Ash used to make hurleys, this too is stupid would you agree?
Now that Ash dieback has killed most of the european ash we used to import, now what??
Well grown timber can be at least as profitable as farming, things like walnut and cherry for cabinet making and veneer even more so.
tim

fergus1001 · 18-04-2017 12:40am

Eddies farm wrote:

Timfromtang thanks for the reply, It's stupid that you would have put it back into forest,what would happen if it was put back into farm land. Does the new forest have to be planted 60 meters back for public road and houses?

It's 10 meters from the road and 30 meters from the wall of the house with the owners concent

Eddies farm · 18-04-2017 7:30am

fergus1001 wrote: »

It's 10 meters from the road and 30 meters from the wall of the house with the owners concent

Thanks,that's a right we bit when there a road around it

Eddies farm · 18-04-2017 7:38am

I have no problem with planting forests,im all for it,but I think it's stupid that it has be replanted if you wouldn't what to, As for you saying I would make more money putting it back into forest than farm land I can't see it,I would have to fork out a lot of money to plant it and wait 20 to 30 years before if not more to get any thing back,it be different if I was being paid from the start to plant, There is mint off ground that could be planted but the forestry companies won't look at it,there only want good ground.

timfromtang · 19-04-2017 7:39am

Eddies farm wrote: »

I have no problem with planting forests,im all for it,but I think it's stupid that it has be replanted if you wouldn't what to, As for you saying I would make more money putting it back into forest than farm land I can't see it,I would have to fork out a lot of money to plant it and wait 20 to 30 years before if not more to get any thing back,it be different if I was being paid from the start to plant, There is mint off ground that could be planted but the forestry companies won't look at it,there only want good ground.

Plant good ground to grow good trees, in the same way as good ground grows good grass.
I mentioned natural regeneration, a LOW cost, method of replacing the trees.
Continuous cover forestry allows for a regular income, and does not require investing large sums over long periods once established.
Its about the HOW Eddie, Felling a mature section, or individual high value stems every year or couple of years all the time, and replanting and thinning sections which need it regularly too.
What you can't see about forestry is the diversity of outputs possible apart from timber and the multitude of possibilities for adding value to the timber on site before selling.
With an onsite sawmill and Larch growing I've found fencing material and trailer floors, and larch cladding profitable.
I'd suggest you educate yourself a little concerning this.
What species is growing there at the moment?

Of course you could lobby the minister and attempt to get the law changed, good luck with that!!!

tim

Eddies farm · 19-04-2017 11:12am

It's all fir trees

Peter90 · 15-06-2017 10:36pm

Latch trees, 40 acres, planted 20 years, never thinned, what would I expect to get money wise from thinning? When would these be fit to clear and what would you earn? Any idea cost of re-plant?

fergus1001 · 15-06-2017 10:49pm

Peter90 wrote:

Latch trees, 40 acres, planted 20 years, never thinned, what would I expect to get money wise from thinning? When would these be fit to clear and what would you earn? Any idea cost of re-plant?

Is it pure larch or spruce ? Depends on where you are in the country ?

You need to build a road first,there is a grant of â‚¬40 euro/m to do so and you need a forester to do all paperwork for you, he will organise contractors ect as well

JeffKenna · 19-06-2017 8:20pm

Peter90 wrote: »

Latch trees, 40 acres, planted 20 years, never thinned, what would I expect to get money wise from thinning? When would these be fit to clear and what would you earn? Any idea cost of re-plant?

Nothing Eddie, thinning is actually an overall cost not a gain.

fergus1001 · 19-06-2017 8:53pm

JeffKenna wrote:

Nothing Eddie, thinning is actually an overall cost not a gain.

I beg to differ ...

timfromtang · 20-06-2017 10:56am

JeffKenna wrote: »

Nothing Eddie, thinning is actually an overall cost not a gain.

I also beg to differ, Thinning can be profitable, Larch is easy to add value to, you can have the money you would pay the contractors by doing the work yourself. even if contractors are used and the larch is sold to a sawmill you would expect a small profit of perhaps 6 euro a ton.
tim

peterofthebr · 08-07-2020 9:32pm

hi ive a few Ha of citrus and norwegian spruce. im trying to caculate how much this will cost me to replant(I like the idea of natural regeneration above), but assuming i will need to pay for it..is there a formula for citrus + norwegian per acra i can use to work out the cost of replaning forest?, i got most of the grants since they were planted; most of thinning done. im interested in looking fw to see what the cost might be to replant.

fergus1001 · 08-07-2020 11:48pm

peterofthebr wrote:

hi ive a few Ha of citrus and norwegian spruce. im trying to caculate how much this will cost me to replant(I like the idea of natural regeneration above), but assuming i will need to pay for it..is there a formula for citrus + norwegian per acra i can use to work out the cost of replaning forest?, i got most of the grants since they were planted; most of thinning done. im interested in looking fw to see what the cost might be to replant.

what age is the crop of sitka and Norway spruce ? and where in the country is it located

peterofthebr · 09-07-2020 10:29am

fergus1001 wrote: »

what age is the crop of sitka and Norway spruce ? and where in the country is it located

both planted 20yrs ago, cavan

fergus1001 · 09-07-2020 1:59pm

peterofthebr wrote:

both planted 20yrs ago, cavan

It would probably need 8 more years to mature in the case of sitka and 10 to 12 for the Norway, you would be throwing money away if you felled it now

peterofthebr · 09-07-2020 2:22pm

fergus1001 wrote: »

It would probably need 8 more years to mature in the case of sitka and 10 to 12 for the Norway, you would be throwing money away if you felled it now

thanks for replay but not looking to fell it now, just wondering when it comes to replanting whats the rough cost of doing so? I guess there is no grant for replanting again after felling?

fergus1001 · 09-07-2020 6:38pm

peterofthebr wrote:

thanks for replay but not looking to fell it now, just wondering when it comes to replanting whats the rough cost of doing so? I guess there is no grant for replanting again after felling?

there is no grant and will cost around 2k per hectare plus what ever maintenance you do to get it to a free growing state

cycling is fun · 12-07-2020 4:22pm

timfromtang wrote: »

Plant good ground to grow good trees, in the same way as good ground grows good grass.
I mentioned natural regeneration, a LOW cost, method of replacing the trees.
Continuous cover forestry allows for a regular income, and does not require investing large sums over long periods once established.
Its about the HOW Eddie, Felling a mature section, or individual high value stems every year or couple of years all the time, and replanting and thinning sections which need it regularly too.
What you can't see about forestry is the diversity of outputs possible apart from timber and the multitude of possibilities for adding value to the timber on site before selling.
With an onsite sawmill and Larch growing I've found fencing material and trailer floors, and larch cladding profitable.
I'd suggest you educate yourself a little concerning this.
What species is growing there at the moment?

Of course you could lobby the minister and attempt to get the law changed, good luck with that!!!

tim

Hi Tim, having been at your place and seen your operation I just wanted to ask do you/can you pressure treat the wood in advance? And do you kilm dry the wood at all?

timfromtang · 13-07-2020 1:01pm

cycling is fun wrote: »

Hi Tim, having been at your place and seen your operation I just wanted to ask do you/can you pressure treat the wood in advance? And do you kilm dry the wood at all?

I'm not a fan of pressure treating timber, nor of pressure treated timber.

I prefer to use rot resistant species of timber like heart of oak, yew, larch, etc where needed.

As for kiln drying, I am not drying any timber at the moment. I have used a large solar kiln in the past for firewood, but the wind has destroyed it a number of times (its on a windy hilltop). I have plans to build a smaller solar kiln for drying planks and posts etc and hope to strengthen the large solar kiln such that it survives high winds when I rebuild it.

tim

baaba maal · 13-07-2020 9:37pm

timfromtang wrote: »

Hi Eddie,
Yes you would be required to replant the law existed before any grants etc.
However depending on the species planted, and on how you fell the timber you could potentially use natural regeneration to replace the forest, and have a much reduced or even no replanting cost.
To achieve this, you'd first remove some patches of trees to allow light in and seeds to germinate, then after some years if regeneration is successful remove most of the rest leaving a few seed trees standing, finally when the site is covered in regenerated stems, fell the remaining seed trees. Some years after this it would be necessary to select crop trees from the regen and clear the rest to give growing space. From then on thin as normal.
Have a forester help you out.
hope this helps
tim

Hi Tim

always a pleasure reading your posts, always so informed and positive. Sorry for bringing an old post up, but just a question on it- when you say that the regeneration is well underway, you should then remove the remaining seed trees. My instinct (if I actually owned a wood!) would be to leave them- and particularly if you were going for continuous cover? I am picturing venerable old trees, even though I see really scrawny birch left after conifers are clearfelled. Are you obliged to remove them or is there is some reason it is considered good practice. Just curious, thanks.

timfromtang · 14-07-2020 10:44am

baaba maal wrote: »

Hi Tim

always a pleasure reading your posts, always so informed and positive. Sorry for bringing an old post up, but just a question on it- when you say that the regeneration is well underway, you should then remove the remaining seed trees. My instinct (if I actually owned a wood!) would be to leave them- and particularly if you were going for continuous cover? I am picturing venerable old trees, even though I see really scrawny birch left after conifers are clearfelled. Are you obliged to remove them or is there is some reason it is considered good practice. Just curious, thanks.

Of course you would not be obliged to remove the seed trees from the regeneration site although since they are the best quality trees on the site and now at the age of "Maximum mean annual increment" it is likely you would want to.
The regeneration described is for a clearfell situation (end of first rotation for most sites) and not really related to continuous cover practices although such a scheme is often a step on the way to continuous cover management which requires an uneven aged forest.

The age of max mean annual increment is an important concept for forestry. This is the most economic time to fell if you are producing timber for profit.
what it means is
as trees grow whilst they are young they put on more and more timber per tree per year, their growth is accellerating, as they reach middle age their growth slows down, and as they age is slows down more and more, there is a year therefore when the tree is growing at its maximum average annual increment, this is the most economic time to fell your trees.

tim

cycling is fun · 15-07-2020 12:02pm

timfromtang wrote: »

I'm not a fan of pressure treating timber, nor of pressure treated timber.

I prefer to use rot resistant species of timber like heart of oak, yew, larch, etc where needed.

As for kiln drying, I am not drying any timber at the moment. I have used a large solar kiln in the past for firewood, but the wind has destroyed it a number of times (its on a windy hilltop). I have plans to build a smaller solar kiln for drying planks and posts etc and hope to strengthen the large solar kiln such that it survives high winds when I rebuild it.

tim

Hi Tim, thanks for your reply sadly I do not have any rot resistance trees I have sitka spruce and lodgepole pine in future I may try and plant larch depending on ground/soil suitability? What is a solar kiln?

timfromtang · 15-07-2020 2:47pm

cycling is fun wrote: »

Hi Tim, thanks for your reply sadly I do not have any rot resistance trees I have sitka spruce and lodgepole pine in future I may try and plant larch depending on ground/soil suitability? What is a solar kiln?

A solar kiln uses the heat of the sun,ventilation and insulation to dry planks or firewood.

Have you heard of pine tar? An excellent wood preservative which can be made from your lodge pole pine.
tim

cycling is fun · 18-07-2020 1:18pm

timfromtang wrote: »

A solar kiln uses the heat of the sun,ventilation and insulation to dry planks or firewood.

Have you heard of pine tar? An excellent wood preservative which can be made from your lodge pole pine.
tim

Thanks Tim you are a mind of information, if I remember correctly you had a poly tunnel at your property I assume that is the solar kiln you mentioned. Tim can you advise any good books to deal with drying timber, timbers various uses etc? Thanks in advance

timfromtang · 18-07-2020 2:02pm

cycling is fun wrote: »

Thanks Tim you are a mind of information, if I remember correctly you had a poly tunnel at your property I assume that is the solar kiln you mentioned. Tim can you advise any good books to deal with drying timber, timbers various uses etc? Thanks in advance

when it comes to books I have simply read what came to hand over the years, none really stand out. Simply read whatever you can get your hands on easily is my advice, local library is a good place to start. perhaps email the furniture college in Letterfrack to ask them to recommend a reading list.
tim

cycling is fun · 18-07-2020 5:51pm

timfromtang wrote: »

when it comes to books I have simply read what came to hand over the years, none really stand out. Simply read whatever you can get your hands on easily is my advice, local library is a good place to start. perhaps email the furniture college in Letterfrack to ask them to recommend a reading list.
tim

Thanks Tim, I will do that

Forest replant

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