Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

Finnbar01 · 26-06-2013 11:27pm

spookwoman wrote: »

lol come next you''ll be saying abortion causes breast cancer and don't give your children vaccinations because it came from an aborted fetus. Save the sperm! Save the egg! Imagine all those potential lives lost........ :rolleyes:

Have you ever heard of a strawman arguement?

Sully · 27-06-2013 12:25am

The signs are up illegally. I understand from what I read on Facebook, that the council are to remove them as they are littering under the law. Your not allowed put up posters like that unless given permission or its an election / referendum. The circuses have their own permission, same with handing out flyers.

nice_very · 27-06-2013 1:03am

JH lives on Johns hill?

Am Chile · 27-06-2013 1:18am

Sully wrote: »

The signs are up illegally. I understand from what I read on Facebook, that the council are to remove them as they are littering under the law. Your not allowed put up posters like that unless given permission or its an election / referendum. The circuses have their own permission, same with handing out flyers.

If im wrong feel free to correct me- I have heard before there is a loophole in waterford city council bylaws on posters put up by campaign groups on display-from what I have heard that as long as a campaign group has a contact number or contact email on their posters followed by a five day time limit on posters being put up on display-any poster that follow those guidelines are within waterford city councils bye laws? anyone up on the councils bye laws on posters?

Ghostbusthat · 27-06-2013 1:44pm

Hello.
I am wondering if there is an existing (active) Pro Choice group in Waterford? If there is not, I am considering starting one up and organising various events in the city.
Thanks!

tombliboo83 · 27-06-2013 2:09pm

I don't think there is any pro choice group, would seem like a good idea in light of the recent influx of anti abortion rubbish on poles around the town.

Max Powers · 27-06-2013 2:16pm

Ghostbusthat wrote: »

Hello.
I am wondering if there is an existing (active) Pro Choice group in Waterford? If there is not, I am considering starting one up and organising various events in the city.
Thanks!

good for you Ghostbusthat, the large majority of people (according to survey stats on RTE i have seen) are in favour of this and the vocal minority are all you can hear. im not aware of any group but im sure if you ring a national or dublin based one they could support you.

spookwoman · 27-06-2013 3:19pm

Am Chile wrote: »

If im wrong feel free to correct me- I have heard before there is a loophole in waterford city council bylaws on posters put up by campaign groups on display-from what I have heard that as long as a campaign group has a contact number or contact email on their posters followed by a five day time limit on posters being put up on display-any poster that follow those guidelines are within waterford city councils bye laws? anyone up on the councils bye laws on posters?

from waterford council city site on littering
Signs
Posters/Signs and Sandwich Boards must not be placed on public areas or on poles or other structures in a public place, unless you have prior permission from the owner of that pole/structure. An on-the-spot fine of €150 can be issued.

MOC88 · 27-06-2013 5:16pm

I'm sure this will be swallowed up by all the other arguments about Waterford

but why in Gods name has Waterford which is the worst hit county/city in the country the first one to get a dramatic increase in the rates. Most businesses have seen increases in thousands. One local pub I know went from 2,000 euro to 6,500. Whats the reasoning behind that?

Other neighbouring counties such as Kilkenny won't get an increase until 2015/2016. So the prices will go up in Waterford meanwhile nowhere else will see a price increase. How is this creating jobs which is the motto of the Government. (I'm not bashing Kilkenny or making a conspiracy theory it is just messed up and will result in dramatically cheaper prices in nieghbouring counties).

All that I see is a policy that will make small businesses impossible to run in Waterford. I'm sure everyone will see the price increases in January and the explosion of unemployment from small shops/cafes/pubs/etc. and start to complain about it then.

CuriousG · 27-06-2013 5:36pm

A good idea for one reason only, it may stop everyone giving out about pro life groups having their say and campaigning, which they are rightfully allowed to do whether people like it or not.

At least if both sides are doing it, neither has the right to complain about the other.

0rt · 27-06-2013 6:57pm

Im up for a pro choice group..
Got room for Extremist Left Wing Activists? :P

Sully · 27-06-2013 11:31pm

MOC88 wrote: »

I'm sure this will be swallowed up by all the other arguments about Waterford

but why in Gods name has Waterford which is the worst hit county/city in the country the first one to get a dramatic increase in the rates. Most businesses have seen increases in thousands. One local pub I know went from 2,000 euro to 6,500. Whats the reasoning behind that?

Other neighbouring counties such as Kilkenny won't get an increase until 2015/2016. So the prices will go up in Waterford meanwhile nowhere else will see a price increase. How is this creating jobs which is the motto of the Government. (I'm not bashing Kilkenny or making a conspiracy theory it is just messed up and will result in dramatically cheaper prices in nieghbouring counties).

All that I see is a policy that will make small businesses impossible to run in Waterford. I'm sure everyone will see the price increases in January and the explosion of unemployment from small shops/cafes/pubs/etc. and start to complain about it then.

I don't agree with the rate review or increase in rates for some businesses in this climate. Bad timing. I believe the rates are currently based on 1980s values?

Waterford was one of many places to see a rate review and there was others done in the past year or so also. Some businesses in the city center got rate drops. So its mixed news I guess.

MOC88 · 27-06-2013 11:42pm

Sully wrote: »

I don't agree with the rate review or increase in rates for some businesses in this climate. Bad timing. I believe the rates are currently based on 1980s values?

Waterford was one of many places to see a rate review and there was others done in the past year or so also. Some businesses in the city center got rate drops. So its mixed news I guess.

Good I'd be worried about you if you weren't.Very few businesses are going down but I can guarantee a rake of job losses and price increases. The idea behind it is to meet a quota for an income and they were gonna meet it if even if every business fails . Its gonna be massive increase in income so itll be very little mixed news

It's worse than bad its atrocious and a policy that will have a very negative effect on Waterford. It will also allow businesses in neighbouring counties provide goods and services for cheaper.

Trotter · 27-06-2013 11:47pm

I'd love to be proved wrong but I've yet to hear of any well functioning city business that has got a rate drop. The meeting held recently was indicative of the general effect of this review. I've asked the question before and I'll ask it again, and will no doubt attract the wrath of FGers screaming that Im a conspiracy theorist, but why Waterford and not the others?

We are getting the thin end of every single decision these days and I and so many others am sick of it.

This isn't mixed news. It's news that from what I can see (happy to be proved wrong) that the vast majority of businesses in Waterford are being lined up to leave someone off in a region that's already the worst around for unemployment.

Intentional or not, someone's doing a spectacular job of shutting this city down.

Sick of it.

Sully · 28-06-2013 10:58am

Trotter wrote: »

I'd love to be proved wrong but I've yet to hear of any well functioning city business that has got a rate drop. The meeting held recently was indicative of the general effect of this review. I've asked the question before and I'll ask it again, and will no doubt attract the wrath of FGers screaming that Im a conspiracy theorist, but why Waterford and not the others?

We are getting the thin end of every single decision these days and I and so many others am sick of it.

This isn't mixed news. It's news that from what I can see (happy to be proved wrong) that the vast majority of businesses in Waterford are being lined up to leave someone off in a region that's already the worst around for unemployment.

Intentional or not, someone's doing a spectacular job of shutting this city down.

Sick of it.

Two well established busy businesses in the heart of Waterford City got drops that I am aware of personally from the owners. According to some poll at that meeting, there was about 20% saying there was a drop for them. So yes, there were rate drops but it appears mostly increases.

As I said already, we are not the only council in review and other council's had theirs and will have them soon.

Again I stress I dont think the climate is right for some businesses to increase rates.

Trotter · 28-06-2013 11:08am

Ok so even at that, 80% of Waterford businesses given a rate increase ahead of their competition in neighbouring areas.

Doesn't look great does it? Another straw for the camel. I think if a govt PR person visited the forum we could put together a magnificently long thread called..

"Ah its not as bad as its been made out to be in fairness"

MOC88 · 28-06-2013 12:34pm

Sully wrote: »

Two well established busy businesses in the heart of Waterford City got drops that I am aware of personally from the owners. According to some poll at that meeting, there was about 20% saying there was a drop for them. So yes, there were rate drops but it appears mostly increases.

As I said already, we are not the only council in review and other council's had theirs and will have them soon.

Again I stress I dont think the climate is right for some businesses to increase rates.

The 80% had massive increases though. The council had to increase their income massively. This alone will offset any future job announcements. What other counties in the Sout East and Munster are having rates increases from 2014 if you don't mind me asking?

Captain Havoc · 28-06-2013 8:02pm

Pro choice group thread merged into here.

Sully · 29-06-2013 1:58pm

Trotter wrote: »

Ok so even at that, 80% of Waterford businesses given a rate increase ahead of their competition in neighbouring areas.

Doesn't look great does it? Another straw for the camel. I think if a govt PR person visited the forum we could put together a magnificently long thread called..

"Ah its not as bad as its been made out to be in fairness"

Your twisting what I said, which is disappointing. I'm not trying to justify the rates increase, its ridiculous and incredibly bad timing.

I want to ensure the full facts are on the table, even the bad ones (80% polled said increase in rates is hardly positive). I'm also disappointed with the responses being given (or lack of) by some local TDs and senior Ministers but I don't put the blame solely on the government and don't buy into the theory that all state agencies and government departments have a memo "Screw Waterford". The Valuation Office does its own thing, based on the Valuation Act 2001 which appears to be the problem.

I also hate this term being thrown around that there will be 'winners and losers' - considering Waterford has one of the highest unemployment rates, hasn't been on the positive end of job announcements and appears to be getting the bad egg all the time in reforms if our rates are being put through the roof there is a huge risk that businesses will go under or jobs will be lost. Waterford isn't ready and I don't think its able to handle the increases at this time. Likewise with Limerick and I suspect other cities and towns can stick their hand up and firmly agree with that.

But as for it just being Waterford singled out, once again, its time we looked at the bigger picture and didn't forget to leave out the facts.

Dublin in part has already had a rates valuation - South Dublin, Fingal and Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown.

Waterford City & County, Limerick City & County, and Dublin City are all underway.

Galway City & County, Carlow & Kilkenny are next.

So that's most of our cities being targeted in this process, under the legislation introduced by the previous government and being done by a state valuation agency which has its own work force, its own job and does its own thing.

MOC88 · 29-06-2013 3:19pm

Sully wrote: »

Your twisting what I said, which is disappointing. I'm not trying to justify the rates increase, its ridiculous and incredibly bad timing.

I want to ensure the full facts are on the table, even the bad ones (80% polled said increase in rates is hardly positive). I'm also disappointed with the responses being given (or lack of) by some local TDs and senior Ministers but I don't put the blame solely on the government and don't buy into the theory that all state agencies and government departments have a memo "Screw Waterford". The Valuation Office does its own thing, based on the Valuation Act 2001 which appears to be the problem.

I also hate this term being thrown around that there will be 'winners and losers' - considering Waterford has one of the highest unemployment rates, hasn't been on the positive end of job announcements and appears to be getting the bad egg all the time in reforms if our rates are being put through the roof there is a huge risk that businesses will go under or jobs will be lost. Waterford isn't ready and I don't think its able to handle the increases at this time. Likewise with Limerick and I suspect other cities and towns can stick their hand up and firmly agree with that.

But as for it just being Waterford singled out, once again, its time we looked at the bigger picture and didn't forget to leave out the facts.

Dublin in part has already had a rates valuation - South Dublin, Fingal and Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown.

Waterford City & County, Limerick City & County, and Dublin City are all underway.

Galway City & County, Carlow & Kilkenny are next.

So that's most of our cities being targeted in this process, under the legislation introduced by the previous government and being done by a state valuation agency which has its own work force, its own job and does its own thing.

So Kilkenny will still have at least a year of of no rates.
It's not a screw Waterford as an aim... its a screw Waterford as a mentality ie. they're not going out witht he idea that we should screw Waterford it's jsut the first target in their sights and nobody defends or stops it. Its much like the Glanbia announcement 75 jobs for Kilkenny were somehow turned in to 1400 jobs for Waterford and so we should be happy with what we get... and the next time something comes up itll be Waterford got 1400 jobs so they can afford to take a hit now

Sully · 29-06-2013 3:37pm

MOC88 wrote: »

So Kilkenny will still have at least a year of of no rates.
It's not a screw Waterford as an aim... its a screw Waterford as a mentality ie. they're not going out witht he idea that we should screw Waterford it's jsut the first target in their sights and nobody defends or stops it. Its much like the Glanbia announcement 75 jobs for Kilkenny were somehow turned in to 1400 jobs for Waterford and so we should be happy with what we get... and the next time something comes up itll be Waterford got 1400 jobs so they can afford to take a hit now

Kilkenny have rates already. I think there being judged later because they were reviewed before us already and there due after us.

Glanbia, in my opinion, is more Waterford than it is Kilkenny regardless of boundary.

MOC88 · 29-06-2013 3:57pm

Sully wrote: »

Kilkenny have rates already. I think there being judged later because they were reviewed before us already and there due after us.

Glanbia, in my opinion, is more Waterford than it is Kilkenny regardless of boundary.

I know they have rates every county has rates but Waterford is being increased at the very elast a full year ebfore Kilkenny.

I'd assume that quite a few of the jobs will go to people from Kilkenny, could even be most. Yet this 75 jobs in Kilkenny is turned in to 1400 jobs for Waterford and so I get the feeling that minsters etc. see this and then think straight away they can afford another hit. I get the feeling that its a case of the Government believing its own spin.

Sully · 29-06-2013 8:04pm

MOC88 wrote: »

I know they have rates every county has rates but Waterford is being increased at the very elast a full year ebfore Kilkenny.

I wouldn't see Kilkenny as competition, or any other city tbh, for the type of businesses that will be hit most. Kilkenny may have a year 'advantage' over us - but will suffer rates increasing also so its a mute point.

It more about ensuring that its not an agenda against Waterford and that its fair and due process for us and everyone else- which it is. But regardless of fairness, no city especially Waterford purely because of its own financial problems and high unemployment compared with other cities and towns shouldn't suffer massive increases that puts more businesses and jobs at risk, direct and indirect. That's what has me pissed off with the whole affair.

I'd assume that quite a few of the jobs will go to people from Kilkenny, could even be most. Yet this 75 jobs in Kilkenny is turned in to 1400 jobs for Waterford and so I get the feeling that minsters etc. see this and then think straight away they can afford another hit. I get the feeling that its a case of the Government believing its own spin.

The jobs will go to whoever is qualified and is best fit for the job. Its closer to Waterford than it is Kilkenny so Waterford will benefit more in terms of our local economy, I think, regardless if its 5 or 500 jobs.

MOC88 · 30-06-2013 8:20pm

Sully wrote: »

I wouldn't see Kilkenny as competition, or any other city tbh, for the type of businesses that will be hit most. Kilkenny may have a year 'advantage' over us - but will suffer rates increasing also so its a mute point.

Of course Kilkenny is competition for a lot of people especially over the river if they get better value for money they will go to the best value... many people can't afford to not make the best of what money they have nowadays. Within a year many of the smaller businesses will close in Waterford eroding the center and it won't be an option. Kilkenny will become more attractive to spend a day in due to having many smaller shops, give any businessman a years advantage over their nearest competitors and they'll milk it for all its worth. On the other hand ask what a difference a year would make for many Waterford businesses, they might have some hope of paying the rates or the people about to be layed off more prepared.

Sully wrote: »

It more about ensuring that its not an agenda against Waterford and that its fair and due process for us and everyone else- which it is. But regardless of fairness, no city especially Waterford purely because of its own financial problems and high unemployment compared with other cities and towns shouldn't suffer massive increases that puts more businesses and jobs at risk, direct and indirect. That's what has me pissed off with the whole affair.

I don't think its a fair process at all, how can it be, we're the worst hit county/city in the country and yet we're being asked to pay more much sooner than the vast majority of counties and I think you're more than capable of seeing that this is unfair.

Sully wrote: »

The jobs will go to whoever is qualified and is best fit for the job. Its closer to Waterford than it is Kilkenny so Waterford will benefit more in terms of our local economy, I think, regardless if its 5 or 500 jobs.

I would imagine that most will come from outside but it would be easier to live in Kilkenny or Wexford so as to have the advantage of living near Waterford but very little of the problems ie. higher rent, traffic, etc. While at the same time avoid paying the toll bridge if they were to choose to live out past Kilmeaden.

It's going to be 75 anyway not the 1400 reported but what I'm saying is that in many tds heads Waterford have had a major jobs announcement. Terrible because nearly as many jobs will be lost with Guinness pulling out.

Sully · 30-06-2013 10:35pm

MOC88 wrote: »

Of course Kilkenny is competition for a lot of people especially over the river if they get better value for money they will go to the best value... many people can't afford to not make the best of what money they have nowadays. Within a year many of the smaller businesses will close in Waterford eroding the center and it won't be an option. Kilkenny will become more attractive to spend a day in due to having many smaller shops, give any businessman a years advantage over their nearest competitors and they'll milk it for all its worth. On the other hand ask what a difference a year would make for many Waterford businesses, they might have some hope of paying the rates or the people about to be layed off more prepared.

If people can't afford it is things are, I can't see how they will afford to drive 40+ mins away to another town. Regardless, I genuinely can't see people leaving in large numbers to go to Kilkenny. Its a lot of effort and its more costly. I also don't see how a years advantage will have a massive impact - Kilkenny is already a thriving place to go. Its much busier than Waterford during the day and night and its been like that for years, even during the good times.

I don't think its a fair process at all, how can it be, we're the worst hit county/city in the country and yet we're being asked to pay more much sooner than the vast majority of counties and I think you're more than capable of seeing that this is unfair.

Who said the other counties got a better rates deal? They probably got hit hard but could take it better. We are getting a very raw end of the deal considering how bad things already are here. We can't afford this, regardless of what the 2001 legislation states must happen. That's what needs addressing. Waterford wasn't being singled out, as has been suggested.

I would imagine that most will come from outside but it would be easier to live in Kilkenny or Wexford so as to have the advantage of living near Waterford but very little of the problems ie. higher rent, traffic, etc. While at the same time avoid paying the toll bridge if they were to choose to live out past Kilmeaden.

Most people that side of Waterford shop and use all our local services as it is. I can't see the toll bridge stopping local people from applying to work in County Kilkenny and I doubt Glanbia would say to someone in Waterford "No chance buddy, the toll bridge has you crossed of our list!". The location of the plant is a considerable distance from the main center of Kilkenny or any decent place in the county. Waterford is much closer and a lot of locals work in the factories out there and the businesses out that side of Waterford, regardless of boundaries which is just a paper reference. If it was to become Co. Waterford in the morning nothing would change.

It's going to be 75 anyway not the 1400 reported but what I'm saying is that in many tds heads Waterford have had a major jobs announcement. Terrible because nearly as many jobs will be lost with Guinness pulling out.

Think its more than 75 including construction jobs etc. But regardless, it will have a positive impact on Waterford more than it would Kilkenny. Guinness hasn't that many employed - 22. The Brewery in Kilkenny is also closing. It makes more financial sense for things to be centeralised. These big companies are tightening their belts.

old hippy · 01-07-2013 12:21pm

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Will I be saying that next? And how did you come around to making that ridiculous quantum leap in reasoning? You can't sustain your argument so you have to make up stuff. Says it all really. No body in the pro life movement equates a sperm or an ovum with a fetus. You will find those people in the pro abortion lobby. Or pro choice as they call themselves these days due to their complete lack of moral conviction.

Define "moral conviction". It sounds like something the Taliban (Irish chapter) would trot out.

0rt · 01-07-2013 2:31pm

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.548224011904586.1073741833.192377537489237&type=3

AFA Ireland has a folder full of dodgy connections to the Youth Defence.. they seem to have some Irish "National Front" support.

spookwoman · 02-07-2013 11:27am

Not impressed with seeing a YD poster outside the Solas cancer center. Very tactful

MOC88 · 02-07-2013 2:03pm

Sully wrote: »

If people can't afford it is things are, I can't see how they will afford to drive 40+ mins away to another town. Regardless, I genuinely can't see people leaving in large numbers to go to Kilkenny. Its a lot of effort and its more costly. I also don't see how a years advantage will have a massive impact - Kilkenny is already a thriving place to go. Its much busier than Waterford during the day and night and its been like that for years, even during the good times.

Nobody will move to Kilkenny but if you're in the area between Waterford and Kilkenny with the new road it is only (30 minutes from Waterford) you're gonna go to the cheaper option if you're spending a day shopping where you might spend 200 euro you'd make a big saving (plus people will head to places on the impression that oen place is more expensive). A full year of this would be very detrimental to businesses who now have to pay thousands in more for very little services(especially in the county). I don't know its busier but rather much more central, the pubs etc.a re busier alright in the center of the town alright.

Sully wrote: »

Who said the other counties got a better rates deal? They probably got hit hard but could take it better. We are getting a very raw end of the deal considering how bad things already are here. We can't afford this, regardless of what the 2001 legislation states must happen. That's what needs addressing. Waterford wasn't being singled out, as has been suggested.

That's exactly what I'm saying its not fair because we can't afford it. The fact that the majority of counties in the country don't have to pay it for a year is where they've got a much better deal. I'm not suggesting that its being singled out, much as it loks that way. I think the reverse is true... Nobody wants to know or cares about Waterford so its the first one on the list to be hit hard, I think that they've no clue how bad the recession has hit here.

Sully wrote: »

Most people that side of Waterford shop and use all our local services as it is. I can't see the toll bridge stopping local people from applying to work in County Kilkenny and I doubt Glanbia would say to someone in Waterford "No chance buddy, the toll bridge has you crossed of our list!". The location of the plant is a considerable distance from the main center of Kilkenny or any decent place in the county. Waterford is much closer and a lot of locals work in the factories out there and the businesses out that side of Waterford, regardless of boundaries which is just a paper reference. If it was to become Co. Waterford in the morning nothing would change.

No you've entirely missed what I'm saying.
The jobs in Glanbia will likely be skilled work so many of the new employees will have to move to the area. 4 euro a day (back and over the bridge) would amount to nearly 1000e over a year so if someone was moving in to the area it would likely be on the other side of the bridge. A 15 minute drive is not too much to go to in the morning which would put them just as close to Kilkenny so in my head it benefits Kilkenny as much as it does Waterford so the benefit of the factory will be split.

Sully wrote: »

Think its more than 75 including construction jobs etc. But regardless, it will have a positive impact on Waterford more than it would Kilkenny. Guinness hasn't that many employed - 22. The Brewery in Kilkenny is also closing. It makes more financial sense for things to be centeralised. These big companies are tightening their belts.

Yes of course there will be quite a few construction jobs but it won't be a Waterford based contractor, I'd imagine that many of the workers will not reside in Waterford other than a small few and the vast majority will go home(wherever they originate on the weekend as most are inclined to do), nonetheless it will be a very small temporary benefit.

Of course it makes perfect sense to centralize production... I don't understand how that helps Waterford, or what the closure in Kilkenny has to with it, though.

0rt · 05-07-2013 3:21am

ProLife ould wan with a stall in town today by TnH's trying to offer my daughter a lollypop.
I told her to go and ...

Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

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