US Presidential Election 2020

Rjd2 · 06-03-2020 6:34pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't see an answer to my question there.

Given his family history, I can see why Bernie would be offended by that flag being waived at the rally, it is a pity that many Bernie supporters couldn't see how his praise of elements of what Castro did would similarly offend families that were destroyed by that regime.

Regarding Warren's support, or lack thereof, a person can agree with another's policies while also believing they a) can't win the general election or b) doesn't have the ability to get the policies implemented. If they feel either of those things then it makes sense to not endorse.

He said Castro was a thug, but the mainstream media focused on that one line. He should have shot it down quicker obviously.

I am sure those who buried those who they lost to the Iraq war must be delighted that Biden who played a role in getting into that war was championed by regime change neocon horrors such as Kristol, Boot and Frum who in turn have spent the last few years demonising Bernie.

Biden is better than Trump, but lets hope we get something a little more progressive in 2024 and hopefully not Warren.

Rjd2 · 06-03-2020 6:48pm

Although Foxtrol is right in that Bernie did make a mess of the last few weeks.
Its cool having progressive surrogates but he needed some diversity. e.g who were the voices who the rural white voters could relate to?

The DNC clearly did not want him, but progressives to need to learn lessons from his mistakes in 2024. Oddly enough the campaign Bernie ran in 2016 probably would have won this time round. Ah well.

3 posts in a row. And all ****e.

Foxtrol · 06-03-2020 6:52pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

He said Castro was a thug, but the mainstream media focused on that one line. He should have shot it down quicker obviously.

I am sure those who buried those who they lost to the Iraq war must be delighted that Biden who played a role in getting into that war was championed by regime change neocon horrors such as Kristol, Boot and Frum who in turn have spent the last few years demonising Bernie.

Biden is better than Trump, but lets hope we get something a little more progressive in 2024 and hopefully not Warren.

I'm sure all those who buried their children because of easy access of guns must be delighted that Bernie, who voted again and again against gun control, is so championed by 'progressives'. Bernie claims that people should understand that sometimes politicians make 'bad votes' but his supporters don't give that same respect to Biden.

If Bernie's policies are so aligned to Warren's and he truly cared about them being implemented, more than it being about himself, then he'd have dropped out after he had his heart attack and put all his support behind Warren, who was surging at the time. If he did so I believe we'd have Warren as the nominee, but time and again Bernie shows he only believes it is 'Bernie or bust', policies be damned.

Manic Moran · 06-03-2020 7:47pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm sure all those who buried their children because of easy access of guns must be delighted that Bernie, who voted again and again against gun control, is so championed by 'progressives'.

Looking at his record, he seems to have voted in favour of gun control a lot more than against it. For background checks, for banning 'assault weapons', for magazine limitations, against concealed-carry reciprocity, and so on.

https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/37/guns

People are hammering at him mainly for supporting the bill preventing suing gun manufacturers, but it's not an unreasonable position. If you get hit by a DUI driver or someone running from the cops, do you sue Ford for making the car?

Foxtrol · 06-03-2020 8:00pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Looking at his record, he seems to have voted in favour of gun control a lot more than against it. For background checks, for banning 'assault weapons', for magazine limitations, against concealed-carry reciprocity, and so on.

https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/37/guns

People are hammering at him mainly for supporting the bill preventing suing gun manufacturers, but it's not an unreasonable position. If you get hit by a DUI driver or someone running from the cops, do you sue Ford for making the car?

That comparison would only make sense if cars were only designed to kill things.

Bernie not only supported that bit he also voted against the Brady bill because he was against background checks.

Manic Moran · 06-03-2020 8:10pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

That comparison would only make sense if cars were only designed to kill things.

Bernie not only supported that bit he also voted against the Brady bill because he was against background checks.

If you object to killing things, make it illegal to kill things, or to make things designed to kill things.

Otherwise, it's frivolous lawsuits with the intent of affecting law-abiding businesses. Why not see conservatives sue the manufacturer of mifepristones? After all, it's used only for abortions. Who cares if it's a legal process? Obviously conservatives realise they will lose.

As for the Brady Bill, incorrect. He is in favour of background checks, and has always been. He is not in favour of mandatory waiting periods, at least federally imposed ones.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/jul/10/generation-forward-pac/did-bernie-sanders-vote-against-background-checks-/

Foxtrol · 06-03-2020 8:36pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

If you object to killing things, make it illegal to kill things, or to make things designed to kill things.

Otherwise, it's frivolous lawsuits with the intent of affecting law-abiding businesses. Why not see conservatives sue the manufacturer of mifepristones? After all, it's used only for abortions. Who cares if it's a legal process? Obviously conservatives realise they will lose.

As for the Brady Bill, incorrect. He is in favour of background checks, and has always been. He is not in favour of mandatory waiting periods, at least federally imposed ones.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/jul/10/generation-forward-pac/did-bernie-sanders-vote-against-background-checks-/

I'm pretty sure if the manufacturer of mifepristones decided they would sell them to people in packs of 200 and that they were designing ways to get around restrictions on their sale conservatives would be suing them.

No matter his reason Bernie's vote meant the same thing, he cared so much about waiting period that he was fine with being against the rest of the bill, including backgrounds checks. Being opposed to waiting periods can also cause the deaths I mentioned in my OP, so it isn't any better of a look for a progressive that wants to throw crap at Biden for his voting record.

Manic Moran · 06-03-2020 8:45pm

I'm pretty sure if the manufacturer of mifepristones decided they would sell them to people in packs of 200 and that they were designing ways to get around restrictions on their sale conservatives would be suing them

Why? They're not suing them now, and the manufacturers don't even need to navigate any of the above hoops.

Foxtrol wrote: »

No matter his reason Bernie's vote meant the same thing, he cared so much about waiting period that he was fine with being against the rest of the bill, including backgrounds checks. Being opposed to waiting periods can also cause the deaths I mentioned in my OP, so it isn't any better of a look for a progressive that wants to throw crap at Biden for his voting record.

Being in favour of waiting periods can also cause death. There have been cases of people being killed in between when they decided they were sufficiently at risk to want a gun, and when the State decided they were worthy of having one.

Foxtrol · 06-03-2020 9:12pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why? They're not suing them now, and the manufacturers don't even need to navigate any of the above hoops.

Are you saying conservatives are already suing those pill manufacturers? Maybe it would help if they also had the protections the PLCAA provides

Being in favour of waiting periods can also cause death. There have been cases of people being killed in between when they decided they were sufficiently at risk to want a gun, and when the State decided they were worthy of having one.

And it is more likely those people would have shot themselves or a family member than shot a bad guy.

Manic Moran · 06-03-2020 9:37pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Are you saying conservatives are already suing those pill manufacturers? Maybe it would help if they also had the protections the PLCAA provides

No, they're not. They know very well they aren't going to win, and pharmaceutical companies tend to have rather deep pockets so aren't at risk from defending themselves from frivolous suits.

And it is more likely those people would have shot themselves or a family member than shot a bad guy.

False equivalence, as well as a goalpost change. Not bad. I know the stat you are referring to, but that does not confine the statistic to those who actually faced a bad guy. Note the CDC-sponsored report after Newton that said that when actually confronted, those who used a firearm were less likely to be injured than anyone using any other technique.
Not having a gun certainly didn't help the ones who were denied and then got killed.

Either way, there are logical arguments against that particular legislation, if you like it or not, and it is only one of many upon which Bernie has stated an opinion, most of which fall under the 'gun control' camp. The NRA rates him as a "D-minus", hardly a staunch supporter of gun rights.

Itssoeasy · 07-03-2020 1:10am

I have to say sanders is talking out of both sides of his mouth since before Super Tuesday. He goes on about the Democratic establishment but last Sunday he said on face the nation hosted by Margaret Brennan that he considered himself a member of the dems leadership in the senate which is the definition of the establishment. He’s also putting an ad out(slightly altered) of him walking with President Obama at the White House. Wouldn’t a sitting president of either party by the essence of the establishment ?

Also the trump base are a disgrace but sanders “Bernie bros” aren’t angels either. He said after 2016 he had work to do with black voters and in four years he’s clearly not improved.

O'Neill · 07-03-2020 1:35am

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/06/politics/nazi-flag-at-bernie-sanders-rally-gets-person-kicked-out/index.html

That flag behind him on the podium is a sight to behold giving his family had to flee Poland due to the holocaust

O'Neill · 07-03-2020 1:37am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I have to say sanders is talking out of both sides of his mouth since before Super Tuesday. He goes on about the Democratic establishment but last Sunday he said on face the nation hosted by Margaret Brennan that he considered himself a member of the dems leadership in the senate which is the definition of the establishment. He’s also putting an ad out(slightly altered) of him walking with President Obama at the White House. Wouldn’t a sitting president of either party by the essence of the establishment ?

Also the trump base are a disgrace but sanders “Bernie bros” aren’t angels either. He said after 2016 he had work to do with black voters and in four years he’s clearly not improved.

I have to ask where on earth did this 'bernie bros' come from? Every video I've seen of him giving speeches, it was very mixed gender! Also, the people that's associated with his campaign (Nina Turner, AOC, Rashida Talib, Ilan Omar) aren't exactly white men, unless I completely misunderstood the term.

Itssoeasy · 07-03-2020 1:51am

O'Neill wrote: »

I have to ask where on earth did this 'bernie bros' come from? Every video I've seen of him giving speeches, it was very mixed gender! Also, the people that's associated with his campaign (Nina Turner, AOC, Rashida Talib, Ilan Omar) aren't exactly white men, unless I completely misunderstood the term.

As far as I can tell it’s male sanders supporters who inhabit Twitter and post some awful ****e.

O'Neill · 07-03-2020 1:55am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

As far as I can tell it’s male sanders supporters who inhabit Twitter and post some awful ****e.

Best ignore twitter in general tbh

Rjd2 · 07-03-2020 4:53am

O'Neill wrote: »

I have to ask where on earth did this 'bernie bros' come from? Every video I've seen of him giving speeches, it was very mixed gender! Also, the people that's associated with his campaign (Nina Turner, AOC, Rashida Talib, Ilan Omar) aren't exactly white men, unless I completely misunderstood the term.

It doesn't exist.

A couple of random nobodies on twitter, however its a nice tool to smear the Bernie base with which is young diverse and actually not doing well with white and older voters. A more diverse fanbase than Warren whose support was mainly confined to educated wealthy white liberals who read the NYT. :pac:

You get the usual suspects e.g Maddow and her corporate ilk to repeat the mantra and its easy how it becomes widespread.

Its a great culture war trick that both left and right use, find some random loon and then use those nobodies to smear a whole movement such as the Bernie base.

Rjd2 · 07-03-2020 5:07am

https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1235990900481896448

That's why the Bernie bro stuff is not to be taken seriously.

Frum a neocon who is all in for Biden who played a big role in the Iraq war lecturing people on decency who a few days previously said that Sanders supporters don't pay their cable bills.

Its also galling as last night as someone waved a nazi flag at Bernie. Bernie has faced a lot of Anti-Semitism this campaign, but its something the media especially MSNBC rarely focus on instead focusing on some random nobodies online who may have upset one of their own.

eire4 · 07-03-2020 8:59am

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1235990900481896448

That's why the Bernie bro stuff is not to be taken seriously.

Frum a neocon who is all in for Biden who played a big role in the Iraq war lecturing people on decency who a few days previously said that Sanders supporters don't pay their cable bills.

Its also galling as last night as someone waved a nazi flag at Bernie. Bernie has faced a lot of Anti-Semitism this campaign, but its something the media especially MSNBC rarely focus on instead focusing on some random nobodies online who may have upset one of their own.

Being lectured like that on what is moral and decent by David Frum is the height of hypocrisy. The man who wrote the infamous "axis of evil" speach for Bush that was part of paving the way for the lies and deceit that lead to the invasion of Iraqi.

Red for Danger · 07-03-2020 9:03am

O'Neill wrote: »

I have to ask where on earth did this 'bernie bros' come from? .

The same place as "Obama was born in Kenya" very powerful people gathered in a room, put some ideas up on a board and emerged from that room with "bernie bro"
You then pump that idea into all the news shows news papers any kind of political commentary such as, " the view" "bill maher" "morning Joe" etc.

I reckon they had very little dirt on sanders, so knowing that large sections of older people aren't aware of the dynamics involded with all online, and would just get the message that sanders supporters are terrible.

Its ridiculous when, (as you see on this thread) people who are aware of the dynamics of online start playing the victim even though we all know they fully understand what to expect if they were to read say; Donald Trump's base, discussing Michelle Obama or Aoc or Omar. They're also well aware that all high profile people on the Sanders side or any side for that matter would be getting constant death threats online.

Thats what propaganda and brainwashing is, people have already read somewhere online, vicious racism, the most disturbing disgusting things you could imagine are now looking at that this post and thinking my online activity is a serious concern. Unbelievable.

sid waddell · 07-03-2020 12:13pm

Let's play the culture war trick and accuse Biden of having a problem with thuggish supporters on Twitter.

Because that's exactly what Biden supporters do to Sanders.

https://twitter.com/Urquwill/status/1236109292589244416

sid waddell · 07-03-2020 12:17pm

The cry of "party unity" is always a one way street. Doesn't apply to "centrists". Didn't apply to the Labour party in Britain, doesn't apply in the Democrats in the US.

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1236092311328690176

Gbear · 07-03-2020 3:33pm

eire4 wrote: »

Being lectured like that on what is moral and decent by David Frum is the height of hypocrisy. The man who wrote the infamous "axis of evil" speach for Bush that was part of paving the way for the lies and deceit that lead to the invasion of Iraqi.

He's been a bit of a fixture in the podcast scene lately - Talking Feds, Stay Tuned with Preet Bharara, the Ezra Klein Podcast amongst others, trying to peddle this "honest disagreement is dead, why can't we all get along" shtick.

In principle, he's not wrong, but the level of deceit or self-delusion at play for someone with his record to be advancing this position, is just incredible.

I haven't heard him take any ownership of the role of the kind of politics that he did endorse and was an active member of, being a primary causitive factor in the current state of global politics.

Ultimately, he has absolutely no problem with the core policy direction of the Republican party and Trump (inasmuch as he actually has any beliefs). He just wants a layer of plausible deniability proferred by competency and eloquence.

everlast75 · 08-03-2020 9:13am

everlast75 wrote: »

Biden should issue a press release stating that he will undergo a full neurological assessment by a random top tier surgeon, and release the records, if Trump will do the same.

In relation to allegations that Hunter Biden was making money off his old man's name, Biden should release a comprehensive analysis by a reputable firm of accountants of how Trump and his kids have been grifting off the american public for the last 3 plus years.

Any mention of Biden not supporting Annie Hall back in the day, should be dealt with by reference to her forgiving him and promptly thereafter reference to Summer Zervos and all of the women who are currently suing Trump for sex related crimes.

Time to slap (figuratively speaking) that smug pout off Trump's mouth.

This will do. There's plenty to work with.

Bloomberg's adverts were inescapable, regardless of what tv station you watch.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1236457135497773058?s=19

Gbear · 08-03-2020 12:10pm

everlast75 wrote: »

This will do. There's plenty to work with.

Bloomberg's adverts were inescapable, regardless of what tv station you watch.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1236457135497773058?s=19

It's ****ing absurd that there hasn't already been such a response.

"We will make good faith attacks against you that we should already be making if you make this markedly less significant bad faith attack against us."

rossie1977 · 08-03-2020 12:32pm

Paddy Power has Biden winning Michigan (most delegates), North Dakota, Mississippi, Missouri with Sanders picking up Washington state and Idaho.

Looking further forward, Florida biggest prize remaining outside New York in late April with 219 delegates Tuesday week has Biden winning by 47 points in latest poll so he will likely get most if not all the 219.

The Nal · 08-03-2020 1:19pm

SNIP. Do not dump tweets here please.

It was a link containing a video showing the dem who will be chosen to beat Trump showing himself as a total incompetent.

It's fairly relevant to the thread.

KWAG2019 · 08-03-2020 2:56pm

The Trump camp have everything coming together nicely. They have established equivalence between Biden and Trump where Trump is vulnerable.

Trump is corrupt but so is Biden.
Trump is not mentally what he was but neither is Biden.
Trump is a sexual harasser but so is Touchy Feely Joe.

Then you drag Biden as Establishment, insider, swamp dweller, immigrant weak, gun seizing control nut, threat to middle class tax breaks and the value of their 401k, weak on China, pro abortion, links to the Clintons etc etc.

Note: all they need is equivalence in the public eye, not in a court of law.

Trump is as good as re-elected; only if Bloomberg super pac attacks relentlessly and Trump mishandles the virus outbreak will he lose.

Only. The. Dems.

Foxtrol · 08-03-2020 3:54pm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The Trump camp have everything coming together nicely. They have established equivalence between Biden and Trump where Trump is vulnerable.

Trump is corrupt but so is Biden.
Trump is not mentally what he was but neither is Biden.
Trump is a sexual harasser but so is Touchy Feely Joe.

Then you drag Biden as Establishment, insider, swamp dweller, immigrant weak, gun seizing control nut, threat to middle class tax breaks and the value of their 401k, weak on China, pro abortion, links to the Clintons etc etc.

Note: all they need is equivalence in the public eye, not in a court of law.

Trump is as good as re-elected; only if Bloomberg super pac attacks relentlessly and Trump mishandles the virus outbreak will he lose.

Only. The. Dems.

Biden has shown a Trump like ability for those accusations to roll off him, unlike Clinton in 2016.

Those fears have been out there, with Bernie and his supporters actively pushing some of them, yet Biden is so far running away with the nomination.

If Biden is such a terrible candidate, what does it say about Bernie/Warren etc, who havent been even able capitalise on any of it?

Foxtrol · 08-03-2020 3:58pm

Gbear wrote: »

It's ****ing absurd that there hasn't already been such a response.

"We will make good faith attacks against you that we should already be making if you make this markedly less significant bad faith attack against us."

They have been making them though, the public hasn't seemed to care.

The democrats can't be seen to run ads against his kids, Trump hasn't even done that yet. The difference here Bloomberg will.

Rjd2 · 08-03-2020 7:45pm

Gbear wrote: »

He's been a bit of a fixture in the podcast scene lately - Talking Feds, Stay Tuned with Preet Bharara, the Ezra Klein Podcast amongst others, trying to peddle this "honest disagreement is dead, why can't we all get along" shtick.

In principle, he's not wrong, but the level of deceit or self-delusion at play for someone with his record to be advancing this position, is just incredible.

I haven't heard him take any ownership of the role of the kind of politics that he did endorse and was an active member of, being a primary causitive factor in the current state of global politics.

Ultimately, he has absolutely no problem with the core policy direction of the Republican party and Trump (inasmuch as he actually has any beliefs). He just wants a layer of plausible deniability proferred by competency and eloquence.

The Neocons like Kristol and Frum have been rehabilitated by the Dem mainstream which is dismal when you consider how little contrition they have shown for the Iraq war which they endorsed and how they set the environment for someone like Trump to emerge. Kristol endorsed Palin lets not forget.

I recall a republican member of congress Walter Jones who supported the Iraq war initially and heck renamed freedom fries french fries he was so into it.

However in the last decade or so he wrote over 12,000 letters to Gold Star families, he from all accounts was haunted by his role in it and the high body count and worked with the dems constantly when it came to veterans etc.

When he died last year the likes of Barbara Lee and Justin Amash wrote touching tributes to him two of the better people in congress when it comes to overseas interventionism.

He loathed Trump and opposed Trump's tax cuts for genuine conservative reasons " lets not burden our grand kids with debt" while others like Romney loved those horror cuts.

Depressingly Bill Kristol and other GOP powerhouses tried to force him out the party but thankfully failed.

It would be nice for some sort of similar contrition from the likes of Kristol, Frum, Boot who seem oblivious to their role in what was one of America's biggest mistakes of the last 50 years.

I have seen people here lionise the above due to the fact they say mean things about Trump and its pretty ****ing depressing as these people are supposedly lefties.

US Presidential Election 2020

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