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Dublin’s traffic it’s a two part problem.

  • 14-12-2018 10:06am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭


    Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
    I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
    We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
    problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
    Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
    Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
    At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
    Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
    The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
    eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

    Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

    We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
    What do you guys and gals think?


«13456712

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    Sounds like it makes sense to me.
    I definitely agree that keeping cars out of the city would be the best approach and trying not to make that an additional cost and hassle for the people who need to get in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
    I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
    We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
    problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
    Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
    Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
    At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
    Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
    The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
    eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

    Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

    We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
    What do you guys and gals think?

    Or people could use the train services already going from those towns. Infrastructure is already there, only investment needed then is additional trains (which are coming anyway). ‘Busses’ are inherently unreliable once traffic and incomplete bus priority is added to the mix.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,248 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

    Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭tom1ie


    Or people could use the train services already going from those towns. Infrastructure is already there, only investment needed then is additional trains (which are coming anyway). ‘Busses’ are inherently unreliable once traffic and incomplete bus priority is added to the mix.

    Yes as in the case of the n4, with kishogue railway station (I think it’s still closed), build a p+r their with direct access to the n4 and that’s what I’m talking about. Road and rail pt alternatives to the car. It baffles me that this hasn’t been done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    salmocab wrote: »
    The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

    Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

    People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
    Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,248 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    GreeBo wrote: »
    People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
    Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?

    That was kind of my point, he’d not give up the car for this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I'd wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I see the same as a solution for the N11. Buses are at capacity, and commercial operators are making a success of routes. What isn't there is the bus priority on the N11, or the park and rides. That, and extra capacity, and lots of cars could be taken off the road. Limited stops at Cherrywood (Luas and Dublin Bus routes), Stillorgan, UCD and City Centre.

    I actually think a lot of the anti bus/ proposition that only rail can work is just to kick the can down the road, so "I" don't have to get out of my car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭tom1ie


    salmocab wrote: »
    The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

    Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

    Agreed but he would be pushed out of using his car (stick) by introducing tolls, congestion charge and higher car tax for people with no integrated public transport ticket, and he would be incentivized (carrot) by getting tax credits towards pt ticket, quicker commute times, healthier lifestyle etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Skatedude


    Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
    The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭tom1ie


    Skatedude wrote: »
    Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
    The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?

    No doubt there is plenty of shift work around but the vast majority of people work regular hours. That’s kinda proved by the amount of traffic on the road at rush hour.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    salmocab wrote: »
    The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

    Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.

    +1

    This is Ireland, any solution that involves more than 1 bus / train and a 10 minute walk either side is less appealing than driving, even if it means sitting in traffic for 30-40 more minutes, its still more convenient, bikes and multiple busses is too idealistic to persuade anybody. unless those busses cross over in a sheltered warm terminal it would never work, one rainy day and boom everyones back to the loveable car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Agreed but he would be pushed out of using his car (stick) by introducing tolls, congestion charge and higher car tax for people with no integrated public transport ticket, and he would be incentivized (carrot) by getting tax credits towards pt ticket, quicker commute times, healthier lifestyle etc.

    For somebody living in naas , working in sandyford , the additional time waiting on the bus, changing to the luas and getting the luas to sandyford would likely mean driving would have to basically double in price to make it unapealing.

    I know im self employed and even if you charged me a 10 euro congestion charge, 50 cents an exit m50 toll and a 5er an hour for parking anywhere in the city, it would still make more financial sense and give me more earning time than any public transit solution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    GreeBo wrote: »
    People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
    Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?

    There may be ways of making it faster with a lot of work, but it'll never be easier or more appealing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭tom1ie


    One thing I do wonder about is do we know where people are actually going on the road. What i mean is how many people who use the m4 corridor go to the cc or sandyford, or swords etc.
    that question applies to all the other radial routes. I presume this information is available from the census but it would be interesting to see how many people are going straight to the cc, and therefore these commuters could very easily be serviced by a p+r with frequent bus routes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,248 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    tom1ie wrote: »
    One thing I do wonder about is do we know where people are actually going on the road. What i mean is how many people who use the m4 corridor go to the cc or sandyford, or swords etc.
    that question applies to all the other radial routes. I presume this information is available from the census but it would be interesting to see how many people are going straight to the cc, and therefore these commuters could very easily be serviced by a p+r with frequent bus routes.

    P&R onto a bus even one with great corridors is not appealing to a lot of people. The metro one will be successful but the chances are it won’t affect the M50. It will take the few users who come in from the M1 and go to the sandyford/leopards town area they will be delighted with a single reliable timewise journey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,008 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Patww79 wrote: »
    There may be ways of making it faster with a lot of work, but it'll never be easier or more appealing.
    This may be a bit of a shocker to you, but there are many, many people who choose public transport over driving. They don't want the stress of driving. They're quite happy to be able to do their email or do some browsing or some snoozing on their journey. They're delighted to be able to become a one-car family instead of two, or a no-car family instead of one. It's never been easier to get a car on those occasions that you actually need it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    Totally agree OP.

    I dont drive in as I would be stressed enough dealing with traffic before Id even started work....and I dont have a parking space anyway plus fuel/tolls cost would be more about 4 times what I pay now. I get a commuter bus and M1 is at a standstill around malahide estuary every single morning. Used to be just the odd one but its gotten worse in last 6 months or so.

    As for travelling on bus, theres not much in it vs driving but extra time for parking at bus depot etc. I watch netflix and catch up on some zzzz's so happy enough once the traffic is light

    Plenty of cars you see only have a driver too, maybe carpool incentives might be helpful too


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Agree wholeheartedly with this idea.

    When you cycle around town you can't help but notice how miserable so many people look as they're stuck sat in traffic in their cars. Theres no surprise so many people refer to cars as metal cages. It can't be good for your physical and mental health dealing with the extra stress of driving through the city, particularly after a complex day at work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    P_1 wrote: »
    Agree wholeheartedly with this idea.

    When you cycle around town you can't help but notice how miserable so many people look as they're stuck sat in traffic in their cars. Theres no surprise so many people refer to cars as metal cages. It can't be good for your physical and mental health dealing with the extra stress of driving through the city, particularly after a complex day at work.

    Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.

    I do. I've heard motorcyclists use the term too.

    20 degrees with a slight breeze on the back is oddly too warm at times to be on the bike, give me horizontal rain and a brutal headwind any day of the week. It's good for the soul 😉


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    P_1 wrote: »
    I do. I've heard motorcyclists use the term too.

    20 degrees with a slight breeze on the back is oddly too warm at times to be on the bike, give me horizontal rain and a brutal headwind any day of the week. It's good for the soul ��

    ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    No car driver who does not use another format uses the cage terminology. Rather pointless bringing it up


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

    Ah different strokes for different folks. Love driving on the open roads, just couldn't be dealing with the stress of driving through the city centre


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,008 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:
    I'll stick to halving my cancer risk, and not having to find time for exercise outside of my commute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    I'll stick to halving my cancer risk, and not having to find time for exercise outside of my commute.

    im pretty sure breathing in all that diesel particle air without a filter vs my pollen filtered air would upset that stat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,008 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    im pretty sure breathing in all that diesel particle air without a filter vs my pollen filtered air would upset that stat.


    Nope, funnily enough, cyclists come out better on fumes too;


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/13/cyclists-exposed-to-less-air-pollution-than-drivers-on-congested-routes-study


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Do you cycle to work ? Ive only ever heard this from cyclists. In anything bar 20 degrees with a cool breeze on your back, the car is a much more stress free place to be.
    The only truly stressful aspect of cycling in the city is the presence of cars, most of which shouldn't be there. It's a vicious cycle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    im pretty sure breathing in all that diesel particle air without a filter vs my pollen filtered air would upset that stat.

    Do you drive a diesel car?

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    ill stick to climate controlled seats and a 19 speaker sound system cheers. :pac:

    Exactly this. Your own space and your own privacy. Heat, call people, listen to what you want, no horrible odours (except your own if you choose :pac:), and just overall comfort.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,008 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    19 speakers? how many ears do you have?


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